Author Topic: a few basic points about electric vehicles  (Read 3962 times)

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jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #120 on: January 11, 2018, 11:59:58 PM »
Hi dnix71, thanks for the thoughts.  This link appears to be to the station you mention:

https://www.plugshare.com/location/97647
Sunrise Town Centershare
CHAdeMO, CCS/SAE, EV Plug   
3426 N University Dr, Sunrise, FL 33351


I already mentioned a few things in responding to JW, but to take a moment to respond to a few of your points:

- As I mentioned, the most important thing is that while these public stations are nice, and are part of the equation such as for lengthy trips, looking at them does not provide the whole picture.  Many PHEV drivers, including myself, can go for weeks, months or years without using a public station, and some BEV drivers, depending on their driving patterns,  size of the battery, and access to gasoline vehicles in the household for longer trips, may also not use public stations much.

- I agree, for many people (including myself), a PHEV is a better solution in both time and money, for now.  If I had more money I would get a new Chevy Bolt (BEV), but right now I'd prefer to bide my time and wait.  A cousin in your area had a BEV a few years ago and its battery was clearly inadequate to her daily needs, and I wish in retrospect that she had opted for something more like what I'm driving now.

- I do think some of the early short-range BEVS, while in some ways a good first effort, in some ways gave the industry somewhat of a black eye.  I see them as very early efforts in a new industry.  I suppose comparisons might be personal computers in the 80s or cell phones in the 80s or 90s.  Similar to those products you had a lot of people complaining about the various imperfections and costs (and health concerns in the case of early cell phones), but eventually their strengths came through, the costs came down, the performance went way up, and they took hold.

- For some BEVs are good enough now.

- You mention charging in 4-8 hours, and I suppose it would take that long to charge a decent-sized BEV battery in a residential garage at 3 to 7 kW, but some charging is faster than that.  The station you mentioned is equipped with two ports that nominally can go to 50 kW each.  I think if it were simultaneous they'd probably drop, and when the battery is nearly full the speed of charging falls off, but this gives an idea that charging to something like 80% full within about half hour is, for a ~30 kWh battery, ok to expect to be able to do. 

- just noting, with an adapter, Teslas can use a CHAdeMO station such as the one you point up.  It is not nearly as fast as a Supercharger.  I'm not sure if they can use other slower station there in the pictures, probably.

- I do like the exercise of going through and looking at how many gasoline stations, but I just can't emphasize enough that a lot of EV driving is based on leaving the house with a full charge, going about one's business without caring as to whether a public station is nearby, returning home with plenty of charge to spare, and charging up overnight without caring that it takes a few hours.

jlsoaz There is a public charger at the Walmart at Oakland Park Blvd and University Drive in Sunrise a few miles from where I live. It can only handle one car at a time. That shopping center holds a couple of thousand ICE cars. The time it takes to recharge doesn't matter much as long as there are only a few EV's that must be plugged in. Otherwise it's just a cute perk for the rich. Hybrids that can plug in but can also run on their own ICE make much more sense.

This one require EVgo network subscription and a key fob.

(Attachment Link)

There are over 6 million people living within a 30 mile radius of Fort Lauderdale and 4.5 million of them are registered drivers.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article68048512.html
http://www.flhsmv.gov/pdf/driver-vehiclereports/drivers.pdf

A search of Yelp! has there are just under 2000 gas station in Broward County, 1500 in Miami-Dade and 1300 in Palm Beach County for a total about 4800 stations. That works out to about 1 gas station per thousand registered drivers. It takes maybe 10 minutes to fill up and go from a gas station.

To refill an EV typically takes 4 to 8 hours. It would require 25 to 50 times the number of charging points for EV's as gasoline ICE's to provide the same level of service. When we have hurricanes and people are ordered to leave, it isn't even possible to supply enough gasoline in a timely fashion to get out of Florida.
http://time.com/money/4932036/florida-is-running-out-of-gasoline-this-app-is-helping-people-find-it/
https://www.clippercreek.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/TIME-TO-CHARGE-20171208_Final_low-res.pdf
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 12:05:24 AM by jlsoaz »

Simen

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #121 on: January 12, 2018, 01:53:51 AM »
Quote
- You mention charging in 4-8 hours, and I suppose it would take that long to charge a decent-sized BEV battery in a residential garage at 3 to 7 kW, but some charging is faster than that.  The station you mentioned is equipped with two ports that nominally can go to 50 kW each.  I think if it were simultaneous they'd probably drop, and when the battery is nearly full the speed of charging falls off, but this gives an idea that charging to something like 80% full within about half hour is, for a ~30 kWh battery, ok to expect to be able to do. 

My 24kWh Leaf takes around 7.5 hours to charge when battery are < 5% up to 100% on 3.2kW at home.

Most Chademo/CSS stations here in Norway are set up in pairs (or 3) of 'pumps', and they can each handle up to 50 kW each simultaneously, in my experience. (Each station 'pump' have both Chademo and CSS, but i think only one of the systems can be used at a time. Besides; the layout of the 'pump'-station makes it inconvenient to connect two cars at once to the same 'pump'.)

I would only need to use those quick-charge stations on longer trips, and then i charge only what i need to reach my destination. I calculate around 110 km from 100% to 10% (safe side), and then quick-charge to 80% for additional 90 km. (Numbers for summer-temperatures with 24 kWh bank; i subtract 20 km in temperatures below freezing.) a 10% to around 80% quick-charge takes approx. 25 min. for my 24 kWh Leaf.

Quote
but I just can't emphasize enough that a lot of EV driving is based on leaving the house with a full charge, going about one's business without caring as to whether a public station is nearby, returning home with plenty of charge to spare, and charging up overnight without caring that it takes a few hours.

This is very true for me, and for most other people i know that drives BEV here. :)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 01:57:52 AM by Simen »
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #122 on: January 13, 2018, 10:16:04 AM »
My 24kWh Leaf takes around 7.5 hours to charge when battery are < 5% up to 100% on 3.2kW at home.

Yes, this was about my own situation when I had a 24 kWh Leaf.  I had tried to future-proof my charge station installation at my house by going with a 7.2 kW Clipper Creek and I'm glad I did this, but so far both of the PEVs I have had only accept a bit more than 3 kW on the AC side.  I did have a Tesla Model X leased by a friend charging here a few months ago.

Most Chademo/CSS stations here in Norway are set up in pairs (or 3) of 'pumps', and they can each handle up to 50 kW each simultaneously, in my experience. (Each station 'pump' have both Chademo and CSS, but i think only one of the systems can be used at a time. Besides; the layout of the 'pump'-station makes it inconvenient to connect two cars at once to the same 'pump'.)

I would only need to use those quick-charge stations on longer trips, and then i charge only what i need to reach my destination. I calculate around 110 km from 100% to 10% (safe side), and then quick-charge to 80% for additional 90 km. (Numbers for summer-temperatures with 24 kWh bank; i subtract 20 km in temperatures below freezing.) a 10% to around 80% quick-charge takes approx. 25 min. for my 24 kWh Leaf.

Yes, this was my experience too, on the few occasions when I tried a CHAdeMO for the Leaf, it was usually about 1/2 hour to get to nearly-full and then on my way.  Not cheap, and not something I did a lot, but handy when I needed it.  On the pumps I was trying, they tended to have one CHAdeMO and one CCS (at that time, the only DC pumps in the Tucson area were from a small company trying to establish a reputation for serving all vehicles).  I am not sure theoretically if they could be used simultaneously, or at what power levels.  There were some significant issues with a few early Tucson DCQC stations.  PlugShare helps show that the situation has cleared up as new hardware and new networks have started competing there, and on some of the DCQC stations you see less frustration reported by the drivers, but since I just have a Volt now, I can't use the DCQC.  I'm hoping to land a used BEV in a few years when the prices come down some more.

[but I just can't emphasize enough that a lot of EV driving is based on leaving the house with a full charge, going about one's business without caring as to whether a public station is nearby, returning home with plenty of charge to spare, and charging up overnight without caring that it takes a few hours.
This is very true for me, and for most other people i know that drives BEV here. :)

I think there are a lot of things about driving a PEV that one can convey readily just by talking, but this is one that, for some, takes a little while to sink in.   There aren't too many forms of alternative transportation that have the advantage of being able to refuel at home, but this is one of them.  Others might be natural gas (if natural gas reaches your house - I had a combined gasoline/NGV, but no gas to my house so my use of the nat gas side was limited) and some biofuels.  I suppose one reason among many that I got rid of my nat-gas/gasoline vehicle and opted for an plug-in hybrid/gasoline vehicle is that the latter is do-able for me to charge at home and the former is not do-able for me to fill with nat-gas at home.

There's a DIY-oriented guy at Tucson Electric Vehicle Association who (now that the vehicles are mass-produced by major manufacturers and available to all) has taken his skills and started a business to sell an EVSE that he has designed.  I haven't tried his product, but when mass-produced EVS started to come into play there were a a few skilled people in California and elsewhere who started cottage industries better to serve the EVSE needs of drivers.  I can't remember what the policy of this board is as to posting links to such businesses, but I will post them if it's ok.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 10:54:32 AM by jlsoaz »

Simen

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #123 on: January 14, 2018, 12:48:29 AM »
Quote
Yes, this was about my own situation when I had a 24 kWh Leaf.  I had tried to future-proof my charge station installation at my house by going with a 7.2 kW Clipper Creek and I'm glad I did this, but so far both of the PEVs I have had only accept a bit more than 3 kW on the AC side.

My Leaf handles 7.4 kW AC-charging, but alas; electricians are expensive here (and the code is strict), so i have to manage with 1-phase 230 V, 16 A for now. It would probably set me back at least $1200 to install a 1-phase/3-phase 230 V, 32 A charging point at home... (Several BEV's can handle 22 kW AC-charging - VW E-Golf is one of them...)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 12:55:37 AM by Simen »
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)

dnix71

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #124 on: January 14, 2018, 11:42:38 AM »
Simen in the US 3 phase power is not commonly provided to residences or even small businesses. There is also a tier of residential meters. Under 10kw is RS-1 where I live. FPL offers a rate analysis for EV owners to see if they would benefit from charging their cars off-peak. If you stay under 10kw, FPL doesn't levy a demand charge. Otherwise you pay an extra $8.26/month per kilowatt peak use over the 10kw base. There is a large church in Fort Lauderdale that installed 40kw worth of generators solely to run a/c. It was cheaper to do that than pay the FPL demand charges each month

11049-0

I used to deliver printed forms. There was a client in a warehouse in West Palm Beach that had the usual split-phase 240v in his shop with a 100 amp service. It would have cost him $20K to pay FPL to install the necessary transformers and wires from one side of Belvedere Road to the other to supply his shop with 3-phase power. He chose instead to pay the electric bill for the shop next door and tap his 100 amp panel and between the 2 panels feed a rotary 3-phase converter in his shop loft.

 He still had to turn off the a/c temporarily when using 3-phase to bump feed setup the 20 inch Hamada sheet-fed press he did 4-color work on. He printed sheets that were folded down into brochures advertising million-dollar homes for sale on the island of Palm Beach, so it was worth the trouble.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 02:57:54 PM by dnix71 »

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #125 on: January 14, 2018, 01:21:57 PM »

My Leaf handles 7.4 kW AC-charging, but alas; electricians are expensive here (and the code is strict), so i have to manage with 1-phase 230 V, 16 A for now. It would probably set me back at least $1200 to install a 1-phase/3-phase 230 V, 32 A charging point at home....

Yes, it cost me quite a bit to install my station.  When I first got a Leaf in 2012, I went for a few months charging at 120 Volts .... I can't remember the amps, but probably something like 10 amps.  It worked out ok to do this since at that time I had a gasoline car to fall back on if an unexpected trip came up, so I charged overnight in the EV.  So, it was a "want" and not a "need" to get L2, but I did get around to buying and installing a station.  It cost me about USD $500 for the station (I got a good deal, otherwise my high-for-that-time 7.2 kW would have cost more) but about $1,500-$2,000 for the labor/panels/conduit/etc., but that was because in effect my station installation forced some issues in my garage overall, and I wanted it all done right (and if I recall I was able to apply at least some of it to subsequent solar/storage in that a new panel I had installed also was needed for that, for complicated reasons).

.. (Several BEV's can handle 22 kW AC-charging - VW E-Golf is one of them...)

As far as I know, the availability of these vehicles is unique to Europe.  I'd love to have better knowledge of what sort of costs there are to the manufacturers for putting the better/faster AC equipment onboard the vehicles, and whether there are tradeoffs other than cost (such as if there are any concerns about battery degradation).

It is not that expensive to buy the equipment for about 19 kW AC in the US (there's a clipper creek model that is not that much more than for the 7.2 kW) but I don't know about install, and as mentioned, I'm not sure which vehicles can accept much higher than 6.6 kW on the AC side.  Maybe some or all Teslas?  I'm not sure what else.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 01:33:09 PM by jlsoaz »

Simen

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #126 on: January 14, 2018, 03:59:38 PM »
Simen in the US 3 phase power is not commonly provided to residences or even small businesses.

3 phase in are the standard in most houses here; i've got 3-phase, 240 V, 64 A main breakers, and the phases are balanced through the house. And until recently, the standard was neutral and ground in the same wire; new installations today have ground separated. So far, there's no differential off-peak pricing.

Jlsoaz;
The benefit of having 22 kW 'semi-QC' onboard the car would be much cheaper installation of charging points, and the ability to charge for a hour or two while shopping without getting bankrupt. ;) (Here, 22 kW points costs 6 to 10 cents/minute, and 50 kW quick-charge costs 25 cents/minute.)
There are usually 2 poles with 4 22 kW ports installed at the same place with a pair of 50 kW stations.
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)

dnix71

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #127 on: January 14, 2018, 05:43:33 PM »
Simen 3 phase residential is uncommon in most of the world. Norway and Germany are exceptions. According to this site http://www.apiste-global.com/enc/technology_enc/detail/id=1268 Norway has single phase 220v and 3 phase 380v.

I don't like 3-phase at all. Where I work we have equipment crash on a regular basis when one leg drops out for any reason (car hits a pole, weather causes shorts, etc.)

I've been shocked by 120, 208 and 240v. 240v hurts. 380v is touch it and die. We used to have people die at bus stops here because the service drop for lighting was 480, and it is very difficult to get a proper earth in the coral rock that lies just below the topsoil here. Recently bus stops were converted to solar powered LED's.

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #128 on: January 14, 2018, 08:29:29 PM »
Hi - regarding some small businesses started by folks who have knowledge as to making EVs, and related

This one was started by someone in Tucson, Arizona, USA, that I know.  He is knowledgeable about making electric vehicles and when mass-production by established automakers came along, he seems to have devised some useful EVSE (EV Supply Equipment) products.

http://tucsonev.com
Tucson EV
We specialize in J1772 Plugs, Inlets, wire and cords to connect them.

I know these other two less well, but I think similar story lines apply, of filling a niche market in EVSE, except I think they're California-based. 

http://shop.quickchargepower.com/JESLA-is-THE-40-amp-J1772-portable-charging-solution-JESLA.htm
JESLA™; is THE 40 amp J1772 portable charging solution!

http://evseupgrade.com
Welcome to EVSE Upgrade
"...Our upgrade service leverages the Level 1 cord you already have and improves its function by safely adding Level 2 capability which works on higher power outlets (208-240 volts)..."

I guess to tie this in, my point here is that this is one area in which entrepeneurs and DIY folks seem to be trying to start a few businesses now that the main area of making the cars is being more heavily pushed by the large automakers.