Author Topic: EV Market, 20-Year Bet  (Read 39951 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2020, 05:27:35 PM »
Thanks for the update Jlsoaz,

Taking the data from your link; world EV sales in 2019 was about 2 million per year, while global sales are about 100 million vehicles.  That makes it 2%.
2019 saw sales drop slightly from 2018 sales.
Sales do seem to have flattened, but one data point does not make a trend.
My next car will probably be electric.

I stand behind my bet, but only George took me up on it.  Too late now guys!
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2020, 06:50:45 PM »
JW,
That's a very good point and one that I've thought about in other contexts, but not in terms of EV's.

It's already become obvious that more people have no idea how their car works, and fewer car owners actually do any work on their own automobiles.  I work in an engineering office with 10 people and not a single one has come in to work and told me the story of changing the oil or even the air filter themselves over the weekend.  When I talk about doing this myself, many of these engineers ask questions about the process that reveal that they have never even considered doing this.  They're engineers for goodness sake!!

This will become even more rare as people drive electric vehicles and have fewer reasons to do maintenance on their cars (no more air filters and only tranny oil).  The rest of the vehicle will be run by locked-down firmware that only the OEM can interface with.  Current use of copyright and patent law is making it illegal for people to make any changes to the software in their car's software.

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

Bruce S

  • Administrator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5374
  • Country: us
  • USA
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2020, 09:31:52 AM »
I am both an EX full-time mechanic on both Petrol & Diesel , and thanks to "another driver" now a Hybrid owner.
2nd thing I did was to open the hood and FIND everything. I find knowing what's what and where everything is to be self satisfying.
What I don't like about the current Hybrids is the inability to tailor to my driving. Some IMO are too conservative within the programming. 
A lot of the newer stuff on them can easily make a person a lazy driver.

I've seen the numbers drop too, and talked with different vendors. The intelligent ones know and understand the cyclic nature. The sales will rise once the warranties on the batteries start to expire and people get worried that they won't know what to do. NOT even knowing just how easy it is to change the whole battery pack out.
For my friends Toyota it more time to read the instructions and watch the U-Tube vids than it did to swap it out :-D. Might have been the Barley based hydration that slowed us down too  ;).

IMO I'd like to see them 20% hit the mark.  Not even paying attention to hyper-mile driving , I can easily get 43mpg. AND since I have a neighbor whose a programmer , it'll be interesting what "we" come up with as an interface for my Hybrid.

Cheers
Bruce S
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

jlsoaz

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2020, 02:28:33 PM »
Thanks for the update Jlsoaz,

Taking the data from your link; world EV sales in 2019 was about 2 million per year, while global sales are about 100 million vehicles.  That makes it 2%.
2019 saw sales drop slightly from 2018 sales.
Sales do seem to have flattened, but one data point does not make a trend.
My next car will probably be electric.

I stand behind my bet, but only George took me up on it.  Too late now guys!

Hi -

Looking at the link again, as of this writing the numbers for December 2019 are not in at the global level:
https://insideevs.com/news/343998/monthly-plug-in-ev-sales-scorecard/

So, I estimate about 2.1 or 2.2m for 2019 in order to make a conservative estimate of December numbers and pencil them in.  Final 2018 numbers were about 2m, so it appears there was a slight increase from 2018.

Fossil fuel vehicle sales probably fell notably in 2019, and so EV as a percentage of FFV sales probably did ok. 
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/25/global-car-sales-expected-to-slide-by-3point1-million-this-year-in-biggest-drop-since-recession.html

The 100m estimate I suppose is useable but could be a bit on the high side.  One issue is if it includes commercial vehicles and buses, then it begs the question of whether e-buses (which are a thing) have been included in the Inside EVs passenger car data (they have not).  I think we'll know more in the next few months, but I"ll say if we confine ourselves just to light duty passenger vehicles, it's possible we're up to the 2.5% level or higher.

Not sure if I voiced my view, but I'll just note for the records I agree with your side of the bet.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 03:08:10 PM by jlsoaz »

taylorp035

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1206
  • Country: us
  • Stressed spelled backwards is Desserts
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2020, 05:56:32 PM »
I think the EV market is going to take off pretty fast, kind of like the solar market as economics start to come into play for the average Joe.  I think 20% in 10 years is realistic.

I plan on owning a NA sports car and an electric car for my future 2 car fleet.  The economics and a *strong* desire for a particular car body style don't add up for me at the moment compared to a cheaper ICE car.  $0.15 / kwh versus $3 gas doesn't make up for not having $30+k in the bank earning interest.  If I were smart, I would of bought a base model 3, put 50k miles on it over the last two years and could probably sell it for $5k less for some seriously cheap transportation.  But my Mini Cooper was too much fun at the time and had a lifetime average of 33.8 mpg and would do 42 mpg on a good day on 200 treadwear autocross tires.

jlsoaz

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2020, 04:16:05 PM »
In the section about long-term electric vehicle outlook, there is a figure 2 and this gives an idea of one analyst house and their view that we will be well beyond 20% by 2037.
Figure 2
Global long-term EV share of new passenger vehicle sales by region.
https://bnef.turtl.co/story/evo-2020/page/3/1?teaser=yes

and a quote:
"....By 2025, EVs hit 10% of global passenger vehicle sales, rising to 28% in 2030 and 58% in 2040.
Electric Vehicle Outlook 2020, BloombergNEF
.."

I disclose some involvement with the team that put forth this report.

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2020, 08:01:18 PM »
How come I don't get an author credit on that article, J?

Just kidding, of course.  Thank you for the link.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4049
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2020, 10:35:26 PM »
I am a member of SAE

We were informed about the patent of the three phase electric motor automatic transmission traction system. At first we did not realize that automatic fluid cooling bath was compatible for minimized operating temp. (which means better efficiency)

The original design will not change over time...

The optimized design will be made achievable thru improved three phase inverters and lithium battery banks. All are possible today, as costs come down the design systems the goal will be easily achieved.

JW 

jlsoaz

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2020, 01:32:46 PM »
How come I don't get an author credit on that article, J?

Just kidding, of course.  Thank you for the link.

de nada.  I think if we're going to watch a race for 20 years and some have wagered on the outcome, then all of us might as well have some fun with it while we watch. 

fwiw, although one might assume I'm on the "yes, that will happen" part of this particular bet (20% global production by 2037), I'm not sure if I've chatted much of my own private views, and I'm not sure I've really formulated them in an exact way.  I also don't think I'm signed up in any clear way for the bet against anyone, so I see myself as just a bet-watcher on this.  One key question, I'm not sure if it was clarified for the bet - do plug-in hybrids count as "EVs"?

I do think the disruption of the pandemic is an interesting thing to contemplate, in terms of its impact on the global transport system.  If there is a consequence for low-pollution powertrain deployment, then it sounds like, if anything, it will somewhat help that along.  I realize this isn't a forum for debating whether or not low-carbon is something to fight for, but if I am to formulate views on EV % deployment, as a practical matter, I'll include my view that lowered tailpipe emissions (both carbon dioxide and other), and policies associated with them, are a big driver of the outcome of the bet, if not the biggest single driver.  That is, it's not just about which vehicles consumers prefer completely disconnected from any considerations of policy-driven prices, availability, etc.

With that said, there are a number of EV pros and cons that will impact (in my view) the outcome of this wager or race that are not as much tied in to those pollution considerations.  One of them is that there is a nice (and somewhat under-discussed perhaps) synergy between a homeowner installing rooftop solar, and using a plug-in vehicle.  I've experienced this synergy myself.  In my own words, when I am able to use in my car the energy that my solar panels have harvested, it underscores or reinforces for me a feeling that my money was well-spent on the panels.  It also underscores for me that when I run into criticisms of EVs that they are "just all running on coal-generated electricity" (or some other sloppy over-simplification), I have to deal with that less.  To be sure, I haven't yet installed enough solar to provide for all my energy needs, and I"m still driving a PHEV instead of a BEV so about half my miles are still gasoline powered, so there are still some comparatively more-polluting aspects to my setup, but even if I do not have the full synergy going, it is good to have.

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2020, 02:01:03 AM »
About the combination of rooftop solar and an EV...
I have taken a stab at the economics here.  When I consider replacing one of my gasoline cars for an EV, I am looking at the replacement of 3500$CAD of gasoline with about 400$CAD of electricity.  This step alone is a tremendous boon.  Saving maintenance costs are a bonus.  Small risk of being "stranded" provided that I go to work and back home or simple errands in between, since there are power sources at both ends (and a couple recharge stations in between).  If I recharge while the car is at work, the electricity is free.  At a Tesla station it will be pricey but mostly avoidable.

So when I look at the economics, and consider the estimated 400$ energy cost per year, I am left with very little added incentive to install rooftop solar.  The supply will be available when the car is away (the daytime).  And effective system will need to sell all to the grid and buy back later to recharge the car.  Which is the same typical problem for most residential PV when the residents are away at work daily, or live north of the 45th latitude.

You may not suffer from this, but Alberta uses "net metering" for residential users.  This means that when I buy, I pay for electricity, distribution, transmission, and other occasional rider fees which are charged at different rates X my consumption kWhrs.  And when I sell, I get paid for electricity, and I CONTINUE TO PAY for distribution, transmission, and the rider fees.  It's pointless to look for profit or even break-even.

Bottom line, the EV pays for itself, no matter if I have PV on the roof.  If I do put PV on the roof, it won't change the EV economics for me in a noticeable way.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

dnix71

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2513
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2020, 04:15:36 PM »
SparWeb Li ion batteries age regardless of use. How much is a 10-year battery pack cost vs. 10 years of maintenance on an ICE car?

If Alberta charges abusive fees to discourage solar grid-tie, why not simply install solar to charge your EV? A Tesla battery pack holds enough for 3 days average household energy use in the US. If you buy one extra battery pack for your EV you could swap packs, and charge from the solar panels to save that $400CAD/year.

I know a man with a Tesla. He is German and him and his wife trade use of the EV during the week. On the weekend, they park the Tesla at home so it can be slowly recharged fully. The speed-charge degrades the battery a noticeable amount, so he avoids that if he can. Even with the extended batteries, he can't get out of Florida on a single charge, so the Tesla will never be primary transportation.

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2020, 10:02:33 PM »
Dnix,
You just listed a bunch of reasons why I need to do things the way I wrote before. 
If I buy an EV, it must be able to serve as primary transportation, even if not every single day (only my 4WD can make that claim).
If I drive my EV to work, it can't charge at home, can it? 
If you suggest more batteries piled up at home, then we're back to 10-year battery replacement cost again.
And whatever arrangement can be suggested, it has to be worth 400 CAD/year (300 USD).  That doesn't pay for much, you know.

Compared to >3000 dollars a year for gasoline, the EV already paid for itself by only costing 400$ per year to operate.  Why make life more complicated?
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

dnix71

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2513
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2020, 11:56:52 AM »
SparWeb why does it cost you $3000CAD a year for gasoline? I (before the lockdown backrupted the company I work for) drove 35 miles a day city traffic in a 1995 Toyota Corolla DX 1.8l.  It has and I use the a/c year round. I used maybe $1000US/year in gasoline. Since the month and a half lockdown I haven't even used a tank of gas. That is a measure of how perverted the world is. By taking early retirement Social Security and not going anywhere, I am much better off financially, but not mentally. The price of gas has dropped from about $2.40US to $1.80US a gallon since the crash.

MattM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1176
  • Country: us
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2020, 12:32:29 PM »
You can easily break $3,000 annually with a 40 mile commute if you run around on nights and weekends.  I did a service job one year where I averaged over $1,000 each month in a half ton fleet unit.  It's all relative.  My family has always liked nice things.  The driving was often my only time to relax.

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2020, 11:32:10 PM »
Yeah, same here.  Driving is a part of daily life for me (normally).  Americans often don't appreciate the cost differences they enjoy on most goods they buy, either.  This thread isn't about the reasons for those things, but it's just important to bear it in mind here.

Yearly I put 35,000 km on my car, which gets better than 10Liters/100 km, and gasoline is a bit more than a dollar per liter here.  So it's easy math to get to 3,500 bucks per year.

Normally...

My car has been parked in the corner of the garage with the battery pulled and a blanket over it for 2 months now.  Been driving my wife's car since then, when occasionally we go somewhere.  Not sure if I'll even need to unpack it when I start going back to the office.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

jlsoaz

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2020, 06:52:28 PM »
[...]
fwiw, although one might assume I'm on the "yes, that will happen" part of this particular bet (20% global production by 2037), I'm not sure if I've chatted much of my own private views, and I'm not sure I've really formulated them in an exact way.  I also don't think I'm signed up in any clear way for the bet against anyone, so I see myself as just a bet-watcher on this.  One key question, I'm not sure if it was clarified for the bet - do plug-in hybrids count as "EVs"?
[....]

but to be clear: yes, I do believe we will get to 20% of global production by 2037 of passenger vehicles will be EVs, assuming PHEVS are also counted as EVs, and not just BEVs.  If it is just counting BEVs, I still do think we will reach it.

Going back to the beginning of the thread, I think there was a point made as to whether or not a majority (50%) of passenger vehicles produced by that time would be EV.   I am not sure but in the spirit of things (of taking a stance on a wager) I'll say that by the broader EV definitions (BEV+ PHEV), yes, I estimate we will get there.  I'm not super-confident. 

Background thinking, to write it out a bit: All of the answers here are heavily dependent on policies and entrenched automaker decisions alongside consumer decisions and other factors such as the economy.  So, our predictions or wagers are also in effect a prediction of policy decisions and business production decisions.  I would lean toward predicting that by the early 2030s we (around the world) will get our low-carbon policy act in gear and by 2037 we will see 50% of production of vehicles be low-carbon EV (BEV or PHEV).  It's harder to stand by this thinking if we say "only BEV counts as EV", especially since it's not out of the question that true zero-carbon synthetic renewable fuels (whether Hydrogen or something else) could finally be in place by then.  On this aspect (if EVs are defined only as BEV) I'll reserve judgment a bit longer.

Aside from the question of whether some of this might take a lot longer than we are predicting (and in the case of some of us, hoping), there's another interesting question here which is whether some of this might end up happening much more quickly.  Could it be that once the vehicles actually start getting offered on the market with the full focus and attention of the established automakers that the entire transition could happen more quickly rather than less quickly?   Might we see 20% or 30% by 2027 for example?  I don't think it's out of the question.  I think by 2027 some countries will be well past 50%.

« Last Edit: May 24, 2020, 07:20:31 PM by jlsoaz »

Mary B

  • Administrator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3175
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2020, 04:01:38 PM »
I still see the major problem shifting to EV being cost. Used plan on a new battery pack in a year or two, new out of reach for many people... if half the public can't afford to buy one it is not going to reach any amount of market share very fast.

MattM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1176
  • Country: us
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2020, 04:34:34 PM »
It's ridiculous that hybrid options are at such a premium.  Mass produced parts should drive a 20 kW version down to less cost than an air conditioner.

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2020, 09:38:10 PM »
My wager was aimed to the world market because it seemed to offer the best chance of coming true.  Here in North America, the inertia of the existing infrastructure and old habits will probably keep EV penetration below 10% for many decades to come.  We can remind ourselves that 120 years ago, what was more widespread: distribution of liquid fuels for combustion or distribution of electricity?  The answer is liquid fuels.  The Ford Motor Company had already churned out millions of Model T's and A's before the Rural Electrification Act was signed to actually make electricity accessible throughout the USA.

There's a lot of reasons excuses to resist an EV in North America.
  • Small gas-powered cars are cheap (less than a year's salary for most people)
  • Many used cars available which run on gasoline
  • More knowledge about gasoline engine power in common culture
  • All those gas stations
  • The "shopping cart" effect.

For myself, I've overcome all of the problems above, except the last one.  And then Tesla came along and eliminated the last problem.

Aside: I remember an acquaintance showing me his Mitsu i-MEV.  I had to stifle a laugh because it clearly was not a robust vehicle nor did it have any comfort inside.  I simply could not accept that sort of POS shopping cart since I have an Acura TSX to compare it to.

But what if I had never owned a TSX?  What if I didn't know anyone else who had ever had as nice a car as an Acura?  Well then, first the i-MEV looks a little bit better than the other cars around me, and second, what I just said also implies that there AREN'T nice cars in my area like the Acura. 

Where am I going?  Drop the North American blinders and look at the rest of the world.  An no, not Europe, I am talking about TWO BILLION PEOPLE IN ASIA.  My wager is actually about the economic development of India and China.

The majority of vehicles in these countries are still tiny awful beaters.  Replacing them with anything new or even 10 years old would be a major improvement for the person buying.  They'd be interested in an EV that offers a step up, and a puny box that I would turn up my nose to could be an attractive choice to them.  There was a time in North America when a Ford Model T was a nice car...  the people in Asia are not going to take 50 years to go from Model T to the Corvette.

The other leg up for EV's is that the next few decades will see many of the people in that world region raising their standard of living by at least an order of magnitude.  They will want cars.  Their countries have not broadly invested in any particular automobile type.  Electric is just as good gasoline in an area that absolutely no automobiles at all yet.  Furthermore, as these Asian countries continue to industrialize and develop, the distribution of energy in the form of electricity will have use in all parts of life.  Distributing supplies of energy as gasoline will just supply cars.  Useful, but universally useful.  That's actually a leg-up for electric vehicles.

When I made the bet last year, nobody had any idea this virus was coming.  I now believe the virus will cause a considerable amount of industrial redistribution in the world.  If that sounds like a point against "globalization" well it's got a life of its own now.  Not even the most extreme US policy is going to completely set back the enormous depth of industrial power that the countries of Asia now have.  Their economies seem to be self-sustaining now, whether the USA decides to collectively shoot themselves in the head, they'll do fine for the next few decades, not.  The virus may actually be the event that makes this fact clear to everyone in the world, and, hopefully, re-think what globalization really means to us (in the west).

So I'm still confident that the nations of Asia alone are sufficiently stable and strong to make up the world market of EV's that will continue to grow, and has incentive to grow for the next many decades.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 10:25:32 PM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

MattM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1176
  • Country: us
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2020, 10:14:19 PM »
The average truck in Southeast Asia is a three wheel machine roughly 12 hp.  Waw.  Rickshaw.  Tuk-tuk.  They go by all sorts of names.  Basically hybrid motorcycles for farm duties.  Some even resemble chariots with the driver sitting behind on the implement yoke.

Japan has been pounding this market hard.  They market an electric version to the Phillipines.

https://seasia.co/2018/03/09/the-three-wheeled-vehicles-across-southeast-asia

Amazing what you can do in markets devoid of equivalents of OSHA, FDA, and the EPA.

Bruce S

  • Administrator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5374
  • Country: us
  • USA
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2020, 12:32:40 PM »
Those in the link are a whole lot nicer than the ones Rich and I rode in. A two hour charge just won't cut it up in the Banaue region, nor will they work very well in one of Manila's traffic jams which occurs every day around the markets.

I can't see the electric making the climes up the "hills" either. "Hills" being a 10% grade up 2000feet, with no shoulder either.

Hopefully Rich will see this and plop ones of those great pics he took of the tuk-tuk's or Jeepnee's we rode in.

I drive a Hybrid that's now reaching it's 60,000 mile mark and show no sign of it's MPG or eMPG slowing down. It's even going to get a retro-fit for e85 in the not-too distant future.
My biggest compliant is trunk space, it's only 2/3rds of what my Cobalt was.
However on a bad day the Hybrid get roughly 16% better fuel range.

I did my research when deciding whether to get a BEV and get the "subsidies" and use it for City driving, even the 250 mile distance on a Tesla would work out for most of my visits. However there are those times when a trip ranging about the 1300 mile mark where it just wouldn't do, therefore the Hybrid won out.
 
As for the EV-Bet. Unless the "developed" countries step in and assist the "developing" countries put an infrastructure in place that continuously lowers the need for liquid based fuels (honestly unless something akin the the movie (Childhood's End) happens I don't see this going around anytime soon. They will continue to use what's currently the king of energy density. That will be the biggest hold up.

BEVs certainly have their place and probably could replace a whole lot of blue-smoking vehicles, and just getting those off the streets could push the 20% up much quicker along with less pollution in the air I breathe.

Hell, getting rid the polluting school buses around here would be a step in the right direction!!

Cheers
Bruce S
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

jlsoaz

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2020, 02:15:10 PM »
My wager was aimed to the world market because it seemed to offer the best chance of coming true.  Here in North America, the inertia of the existing infrastructure and old habits will probably keep EV penetration below 10% for many decades to come. 
[...]
When I made the bet last year, nobody had any idea this virus was coming
[....]
I guess we're about 2.5 years into a 20 year bet.  It is interesting to contemplate the impact of the virus on the bet.  It's hard to say for sure, but I think one point along these lines to make is that if anything it looks like there may be a move "sooner" toward higher percentages of electric vehicles.  For one recent example of why I say this:

Quote
https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterlyon/2020/05/28/nissan-to-cut-production-and-close-plants-after-reporting-biggest-loss-in-a-decade/#762d63c6471c
"....As part of the downsizing move, model numbers will be reduced from 69 to less than 55 with production focusing more on electric vehicles like the four-wheel-drive Ariya SUV which is slated for a summer launch. ..."

I agree that North America is a bit tougher call to make because of some of the headwinds, but I'm of the view that in trying to predict where North America will be in 2037, there are two key pollution factors to consider:

- urban air pollution goals.
- climate change.

On this latter, no I am not trying to debate it - my impression is that it's not much welcome here.  However, I think if we are going to discuss why we have a view on one or the other side of a wager, then it seems appropriate to be able to lay out actually why we took that side of things, and not censor ourselves on a key point.  My own estimate that there will be a strong push to deal with climate change, including in the policy area is one of the top reasons that I think North America will be well [edited] into the 20% area by 2037, if not much higher.  North America though is harder for me though because of its reluctance to go more strongly for climate change legislation. 

If we turn to global discussion and add in a factor that some markets, such as China (largest passenger vehicle producer and consumer in the world, last I checked) have vehicle policies that are driven in large part by these two pollution concerns, then I think the global bet is somewhat easy.  [/end edit]

Other top reasons include that I think the best of the vehicles, although they do have major weaknesses by comparison to the best gasoline vehicles, are actually in some ways "that good" (perhaps some here may not agree, but I can lay out a few points if wanted, as to why I say this), and there are indications it will only be a few years before they are more cost competitive.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 02:36:11 PM by jlsoaz »

Mary B

  • Administrator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3175
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2020, 03:08:50 PM »
Barrier to US adoption is distances between places. People want a car that can go 350 miles, a 10 minute stop for fuel and go another 350... heck it is 300 for me to get to the Canadian border then another 200+ to the lake we used to fish... No EV can do that without a recharge stop or two... then slow charge at the lake off a generator because there is no grid...

DanG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1122
  • Country: us
  • 35 miles east of Lake Okeechobee
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2020, 09:36:38 PM »
All the EV miracles shouted up about in other Nations... they don't have 3000 x 1250 mile land mass to effectively move 330 million people around in.  Let Tesla have the Megalopolis People that are already hypnotized by four-walls, floor and ceiling - probably a healthy thing keeping those core inner-city populations sane - the idea of a day trip and with 6, 8 or more hours drive time, well, it isn't the instant gratification they are used to, so we'll just let them be the early-adopters who pay highest prices for the technology, Superchargers & Starbucks pit stops :)

I tried to convert total Grid kilowatt hours the end users in the USA consume versus Btu content the US consumes in gasoline...  I kept coming up with 8 or 10% grid power expended (on everything done to continue to live) versus the work energy petrochemicals give us. Kind of reminds me of the early scam artists selling RE systems, promise anything to get their dollar today...




richhagen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Country: us
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #57 on: May 31, 2020, 09:00:49 AM »
I did see it Bruce  :)  Here are a few photos from travel there.

A jeepney with a bulls logo . . .

A couple of trike operators waiting for fairs near the bus stop in Banaue, Ifugao Province, Philippines

My ride from the bus stop to our lodging. 

used for transporting all types of things

Some of the bigger vehicles and their firetruck in Banaue. 

Kids using a wooden push bicycle to transport wood down to town that they harvested to sell on the road north of Banaue, mountain province, Philippines 2009.

Here is a jeepney with a Mercedes logo, though I doubt Mercedes had much to do with its construction.  Lots Jeepney owners decorate their jeepneys in very unique ways. 

A rather full jeepney, when most people don't have cars, a ride to town or to another town has a higher demand. 

Some jeepney traffic in Manila.  They do have more normal cars there that do make up most of the traffic in the big cities.  In the small poorer areas, trikes dominate, many, or even most home welded by adding a welded frame and wheel to a cheap motorbike.  This was in 2009 and 10 though, it may be a bit different today. 


A Joule saved is a Joule made!

richhagen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Country: us
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #58 on: May 31, 2020, 09:04:31 AM »
Apparently the photos did not post correctly. I will try them one at a time. 

A jeepney with a Chicago Bulls logo in Manila.

A Joule saved is a Joule made!

richhagen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Country: us
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2020, 09:06:37 AM »

A couple of trike operators waiting for fairs near the bus stop in Banaue, Ifugao Province, Philippines
A Joule saved is a Joule made!

richhagen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Country: us
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2020, 09:09:01 AM »

My ride from the bus stop to our lodging.
A Joule saved is a Joule made!

richhagen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Country: us
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #61 on: May 31, 2020, 09:12:04 AM »

Trikes there were used for the transportation of just about everything from the mountain roads to the city streets. 
A Joule saved is a Joule made!

richhagen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Country: us
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #62 on: May 31, 2020, 09:14:48 AM »

Some of the bigger vehicles and their firetruck in Banaue.
A Joule saved is a Joule made!

richhagen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Country: us
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #63 on: May 31, 2020, 09:20:10 AM »

Kids using a wooden push bicycle to transport wood down to town that they harvested to sell on the road north of Banaue, mountain province, Philippines 2009.  (It is a sophisticated device made all from wood - including the wheels - with a few bolts that efficiently converts gravitational potential energy into kinetic energy in a semi-controlled manner.) 
A Joule saved is a Joule made!

richhagen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Country: us
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2020, 09:23:57 AM »

Here is a jeepney with a Mercedes logo, though I doubt Mercedes had much to do with its construction.  Lots Jeepney owners decorate their jeepneys in very unique ways.
A Joule saved is a Joule made!

richhagen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Country: us
Re: EV Market, 20-Year Bet
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2020, 09:29:02 AM »

A rather full jeepney, when most people don't have cars, a ride to town or to another town has a higher demand.
A Joule saved is a Joule made!