Author Topic: 12" Lathe  (Read 10925 times)

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Warpspeed

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2022, 01:58:46 AM »
Electronic VFDs sound like a really good idea for lathes, milling machines, and drill presses.
Yes you can slow things right down, but the problem is for a really BIG job, there will be almost no torque at that low speed.

Gearboxes and cone pulleys are by far the better way, as you change down to a lower speed, the torque is multiplied, which is exactly what is needed. The old fashioned mechanical variable speed drives as fitted to Bridgeport machines are vastly better, those do actually multiply torque as the speed is reduced.  But the pure electronic motor speed VFDs are pretty hopeless.

For things like really large diameter hole saws, very low speeds are required, and being able to turn the speed control knob down to maybe 20 rpm is pretty useless if you can stall the thing with just one finger.

So when looking to buy a small Chinese mill or lathe, get one with either a real gearbox with gear change levers, or at least stepped cone pulley drive.  Far too many just have a motor and a single drive belt with an electronic speed control box.

bigrockcandymountain

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2022, 06:42:23 PM »
I'll add my 2 cents about vfds. I put a 5 hp motor and vfd on my 18" lathe here and i couldn't be happier.  It creates 3 phase power from single phase and has a programmable soft start so there is no inrush, which is very important when running off of an inverter.

I usually run the motor at 30hz because it is quieter and I'm usually taking light cuts on small parts.  I can speed it up to 60hz for full power and i can also run 120hz for double nameplate speed on the motor.  This is important, because the original motor was a 2 speed unit 1700 rpm / 3400 rpm.  I can also run any speed in between.

Everything in the last post was correct, so you still need gear reduction to get the low spindle speeds, but a vfd beats a rotary phase converter hands down in my appication anyway.  I think i paid $120 canadian for the vfd, so it was also very affordable. 

I plan on getting another 5 hp 3 phase motor for the metal shaper and sharing the vfd by using an outlet and plugs.  Just mount the vfd in between the 2 machines and plug in whichever one I'm using.  It will be great on the shaper too, because it only has 6 gears. 

So ya, you definitely need back gears or a variable cone pulley etc but a vfd on top of that stuff makes a good machine even better. 

JW

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2022, 08:10:53 PM »

SparWeb

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2022, 12:09:00 AM »
OK well since you reminded me...

Here's what it looks like today:

14758-0
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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SparWeb

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2022, 12:11:18 AM »
The blue motor has not been modified.  It's a stock 3HP 3phase industrial motor which also happens to have a 6-pole core. 
The lathe is back-driving it and the output is being excited by the bank (mess) of capacitors.
Taking measurements one step at a time as I try things, learning as I go.  Getting this thing to self-excite is possible and the results are interesting. 
Not sure a setup like this is suitable for a WT, but I'm not done trying yet.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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Mary B

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2022, 01:46:26 PM »
This reminds me of that 80lbs O-Scope :)

https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,150220.msg1053076.html#msg1053076

My first scope at home was a 400mhz Tektronix rack mount that did weigh 80 pounds LOL thing was a beast! Came from a nuke weapon testing lab that closed down, had stickers that IDed the lab and last calibration ,R7903 that did a bunch of on screen measurements, way ahead of its time. Now I can hold my scope in one hand, it does complex math... has full on screen readout of frequency, pulse width and a hundred other things(I have to get the manual out!). LCD digital scopes have really come down in price. 200mhz scope for $369!

Warpspeed

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2022, 07:29:19 PM »
Quote
Bryan, there is not a lot of travel on my Lathe's cross-slide.  In fact it seems to be less than 12" so the swing over the bed may be, in practical terms, a lie.
If you think about it, if you can swing a twelve inch job, in theory the cross slide only needs to have six inches of travel.

My own lathe is an American made LeBlond manufactured in 1949. Fifteen inch swing, five foot bed, and eight inches of cross slide travel. Its rather old (like me) and I have owned it for about half of its lifetime.
It originally came from a trade school, so suffered much wear and abuse in its early days.
It was a fairly top end lathe in its day, with a geared head, and mulitichange gearbox (including metric) for screw cutting.
Its now fairly worn out, but its still possible to do accurate work with a bit of patience.

Its greatest shortcoming is the spindle bore is tiny, only inch and a half.  Recently I discovered the LeBlond family are still in business and still making lathes, now have an internet site, and can supply any part of any lathe they have made over the last almost one hundred years, which is pretty amazing. 
They only need the serial number of the lathe and they can supply any replacement part for it.

I am not so sure a 3d printing can ever replace a real lathe.  Most often here,  its a case of quickly modifying an existing part in some way, rather than fabricating something new totally from scratch.

I have recently bought a Chinese dovetail milling machine with a geared head, similar to what Americans know as a "Grizzly".  Its certainly no Bridgeport machine, but its as far as my budget would reasonably extend.

A knee mill has the advantage that the cutter is always at a convenient height and easy to see.  For small jobs the knee is raised.  For big jobs like an engine block, the knee is lowered, but you are always working at a convenient height with the cutter.

With a dovetail mill, the slides are fixed and the head goes up and down.  I am tall, and working on small jobs I really need to be sitting down or almost on my hands and knees to see what I am doing.
With a bulky job, being seven feet tall would be a definite advantage with this type of machine.....

I am in the process of fitting power feeds to three axis, and a digital readout.  The power feeds use large stepper motors, and I just have one magic power box that plugs into whichever axis I want to go by itself.

One interesting feature is, I have fitted two separate DRO scales for the Z axis. One on the head, and another on the quill. These go to a digital combiner box of my own design to the digital readout, so I can adjust either the head height or the quill without losing my zero.  All this is still a project in progress, but I am now probably about half way there.

All really fascinating stuff to play with.

SparWeb

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2022, 12:28:47 AM »
I've mentioned it before...  I worked at a place for 12 years with a Colchester lathe and a Bridgeport mill and I could use them as I wished.  Now that I'm so spoiled, it's really hard to accept a combo-mill, a drill-mill, or anything less then a full-size knee mill with a 4-foot long bed.  Sigh.  I browse Kijiji every month, looking for that perfect mill.  Someday...
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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Warpspeed

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2022, 08:30:49 PM »
Know exactly what you mean, I came from an electronics background, and always had access to top end test equipment at work, and would come home to my miserable (in comparison) home electronics lab.
These days in retirement I am pretty well set up for both parts and electronic test equipment and can usually build and test things quickly and easily.  The machine workshop is something quite different.

I have lusted after a milling machine for probably half a century.  If I did not buy one now at this stage of life, I never will and so finally took the plunge.

Unfortunately owning a lathe or a mill is just the beginning of a terrible addiction.
Neither is much use all by itself, without a vast range of tooling, cutters, measuring instruments and accessories that usually end up costing vastly more than the original lathe or mill.


Mary B

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2022, 12:25:17 PM »
Quote
Bryan, there is not a lot of travel on my Lathe's cross-slide.  In fact it seems to be less than 12" so the swing over the bed may be, in practical terms, a lie.
If you think about it, if you can swing a twelve inch job, in theory the cross slide only needs to have six inches of travel.

My own lathe is an American made LeBlond manufactured in 1949. Fifteen inch swing, five foot bed, and eight inches of cross slide travel. Its rather old (like me) and I have owned it for about half of its lifetime.
It originally came from a trade school, so suffered much wear and abuse in its early days.
It was a fairly top end lathe in its day, with a geared head, and mulitichange gearbox (including metric) for screw cutting.
Its now fairly worn out, but its still possible to do accurate work with a bit of patience.

Its greatest shortcoming is the spindle bore is tiny, only inch and a half.  Recently I discovered the LeBlond family are still in business and still making lathes, now have an internet site, and can supply any part of any lathe they have made over the last almost one hundred years, which is pretty amazing. 
They only need the serial number of the lathe and they can supply any replacement part for it.

I am not so sure a 3d printing can ever replace a real lathe.  Most often here,  its a case of quickly modifying an existing part in some way, rather than fabricating something new totally from scratch.

I have recently bought a Chinese dovetail milling machine with a geared head, similar to what Americans know as a "Grizzly".  Its certainly no Bridgeport machine, but its as far as my budget would reasonably extend.

A knee mill has the advantage that the cutter is always at a convenient height and easy to see.  For small jobs the knee is raised.  For big jobs like an engine block, the knee is lowered, but you are always working at a convenient height with the cutter.

With a dovetail mill, the slides are fixed and the head goes up and down.  I am tall, and working on small jobs I really need to be sitting down or almost on my hands and knees to see what I am doing.
With a bulky job, being seven feet tall would be a definite advantage with this type of machine.....

I am in the process of fitting power feeds to three axis, and a digital readout.  The power feeds use large stepper motors, and I just have one magic power box that plugs into whichever axis I want to go by itself.

One interesting feature is, I have fitted two separate DRO scales for the Z axis. One on the head, and another on the quill. These go to a digital combiner box of my own design to the digital readout, so I can adjust either the head height or the quill without losing my zero.  All this is still a project in progress, but I am now probably about half way there.

All really fascinating stuff to play with.


Is that Chinese mill capable of face milling(for flatness) a heatsink and copper heat spreader? In the world of high power ham radio amplifiers those 2 surfaces need to be flat to within .001" for maximum heat transfer when you have 1,000 watts being dissipated into a .75" x 1.5" max patch. Thedays of using 8+ transistors to generate 1500 watts are gone, it is a single device now...

The white patch in the middle of the pic is the single 1500 watt transistor... he no longer use aluminum heat spreaders, it is all copper



heat spreader, both sides face milled for flatness(top side where the circuit board sits helps dissipate component heat) and a channel milled for the transistor



Heat spreader mounts to the heatsink


Warpspeed

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2022, 02:04:45 PM »
Hi Mary, I have a full Ham license myself, (VK3ALY) but have not been on the air for a great many years. I could get back onto the HF bands fairly quickly if the need ever arose.

A vertical milling machine is ideal for getting a perfectly flat smooth metal surface.
 
Cutting down and modifying very thick heat sinks into far more useful shapes, and drilling/tapping truly vertical holes in precise locations are also jobs easily handled by a milling machine.
Also, excellent for cutting slots and steps which can make aligning the height of power semiconductors with circuit boards a simple operation.

Its an expensive toy though, but a very versatile one.

machinemaker

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2022, 03:22:27 PM »
I still teach a manual machining class,(mill and lathe), and tell my students that word of mouth, and asking around is the best way to find used equipment or auctions. A lot of old guys like me have stuff in our shops or a business may have an unused mill in a back corner. Around here a good used mill starts around $800, However, you will spend even more over the years on tooling. For moving them, I will rent a Ryder truck with a liftgate for a day. the liftgate can be a lifesaver. The other thing is to scrounge up a pallet jack.
kent

Mary B

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2022, 12:35:47 PM »
Hi Mary, I have a full Ham license myself, (VK3ALY) but have not been on the air for a great many years. I could get back onto the HF bands fairly quickly if the need ever arose.

A vertical milling machine is ideal for getting a perfectly flat smooth metal surface.
 
Cutting down and modifying very thick heat sinks into far more useful shapes, and drilling/tapping truly vertical holes in precise locations are also jobs easily handled by a milling machine.
Also, excellent for cutting slots and steps which can make aligning the height of power semiconductors with circuit boards a simple operation.

Its an expensive toy though, but a very versatile one.

I am talking those tabletop Chinese mini mills... are they solid enough to do a flat surface over a large area

Warpspeed

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2022, 07:55:04 PM »
Doing a one off job at home for fun is very different to running a commercial business for profit where efficient use of time is a critical factor.

If you go really slow, and take very fine cuts, AND have a very slow power feed, and the material is soft, good results can be had on a less than totally rigid machine as long as you are not in any kind of a hurry.
A new machine that is not totally worn out should be reasonably free of mechanical slop in the slides and lead screws.

The biggest factor of all, is personal experience and practice, and knowing what you are doing.
That is certainly not me, I am a total untrained novice when it comes to milling machines.

Its a bit like someone planning to buy their very first oscilloscope, how much bandwidth do I really need ?
Its an unanswerable question. More is always better of course, but cost comes into it.
But owning ANY oscilloscope is better than having no oscilloscope at all.

And a small table top mill is better than having no mill at all. 
Get in some practice, and learn how to use it, read books, watch some you-tubes.

Its just like learning electronics, there is absolutely no substitute for experience and study, and learning by doing.
Top end equipment is nice, but something more humble can be very useful indeed with a bit of ingenuity and know how.

bigrockcandymountain

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2022, 01:32:35 PM »
A surprisingly accurate way to make small pieces flat is the side of a chop saw blade if you have one.  Light pressure and keep turning the piece so it cross hatches the grind marks and i bet your within a thousandth over 3 or 4 inches. 

My chop saw is 14" and i have used this method lots. 

From what i have read and been told, the chinese mill drills are mostly just glorified drill presses with no real rigidity.  I'm sure you could mill something flat if you were patient enough, but it would be frustrating i think. 

My old shaper should be the ticket for that job too, but it is a couple ton of cast iron so not practical for small jobs.  The smaller bench top shapers like the atlas 7b would be perfect but the hobby market has driven the price up pretty high. Keep your eye out though. Not too many people know what they are.

Warpspeed

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2022, 06:00:03 PM »
Quote
From what i have read and been told, the chinese mill drills are mostly just glorified drill presses with no real rigidity.
The really cheap ones are pretty much built exactly like a drill press. The "head" is mounted on a slender round column and rigidity is definitely not their strong point. But they would still be quite usable at the hobby level.

Next step up from that is what they call a dovetail mill. That is what I have.  The "head" slides up and down on wide spaced dovetail slides, and the whole machine is much more massive and heavy.
14782-0
I recently bought a 14 inch chop saw with belt drive and a three phase motor, and can confirm its a very quick and simple way to make a flat surface.
Funnily enough I have a small milling job to do today.
I wish to mount a solid state relay into one of those small die cast metal boxes.
That requires a flat surface for the heat sink, and those boxes come studded with small bosses and raised ridges in the bottom. A vertical milling machine is about the only way to reach right down inside that box, the chop saw or a shaper would not work for this.

bigrockcandymountain

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2022, 07:20:30 PM »
That's a pretty nice looking milling machine.  The column is definitely more sturdy than the ones i was picturing. 

Ya, you've got me with the milling in a box.  That is definitely an ideal job for a vertical mill. 

Warpspeed

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2022, 08:27:52 PM »
We electronics hobbyists have some different requirements to most hard core mechanical machinist guys.

On the one hand a smallish milling machine might be fine, but a huge chop saw comes in really handy for cutting up large and bulky  heatsink extrusions.   14783-0

Mary B

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2022, 01:00:30 PM »
A surprisingly accurate way to make small pieces flat is the side of a chop saw blade if you have one.  Light pressure and keep turning the piece so it cross hatches the grind marks and i bet your within a thousandth over 3 or 4 inches. 

My chop saw is 14" and i have used this method lots. 

From what i have read and been told, the chinese mill drills are mostly just glorified drill presses with no real rigidity.  I'm sure you could mill something flat if you were patient enough, but it would be frustrating i think. 

My old shaper should be the ticket for that job too, but it is a couple ton of cast iron so not practical for small jobs.  The smaller bench top shapers like the atlas 7b would be perfect but the hobby market has driven the price up pretty high. Keep your eye out though. Not too many people know what they are.

Not following? Are you using it as a flat with polishing compound? When I do a heatsink I need 6+ inches of flat surface for the heat spreader to sit into... currently farming it out but doing 4 that way will be the price of a mini machine...

Mary B

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #52 on: April 10, 2022, 01:02:12 PM »
Quote
From what i have read and been told, the chinese mill drills are mostly just glorified drill presses with no real rigidity.
The really cheap ones are pretty much built exactly like a drill press. The "head" is mounted on a slender round column and rigidity is definitely not their strong point. But they would still be quite usable at the hobby level.

Next step up from that is what they call a dovetail mill. That is what I have.  The "head" slides up and down on wide spaced dovetail slides, and the whole machine is much more massive and heavy.
(Attachment Link)
I recently bought a 14 inch chop saw with belt drive and a three phase motor, and can confirm its a very quick and simple way to make a flat surface.
Funnily enough I have a small milling job to do today.
I wish to mount a solid state relay into one of those small die cast metal boxes.
That requires a flat surface for the heat sink, and those boxes come studded with small bosses and raised ridges in the bottom. A vertical milling machine is about the only way to reach right down inside that box, the chop saw or a shaper would not work for this.

That is the one I was looking at at Northern Tool...

Mary B

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2022, 01:03:59 PM »
We electronics hobbyists have some different requirements to most hard core mechanical machinist guys.

On the one hand a smallish milling machine might be fine, but a huge chop saw comes in really handy for cutting up large and bulky  heatsink extrusions.    (Attachment Link)

I have a 14" cold cut saw... my next big project is a parabolic dish antenna mount. 7 foot dish, counterweight slide bar...

Warpspeed

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2022, 06:31:37 PM »
Quote
Not following? Are you using it as a flat with polishing compound? When I do a heatsink I need 6+ inches of flat surface for the heat spreader to sit into...
The high speed abrasive cutting discs are dead flat and fairly rigid.
It spins at very high speed.
If you hold something very lightly against the flat side of the disc by hand, it will definitely take off any high spots, leaving a very smooth flat surface.  Its a bit crude, but can be quite effective.

Another approach might be one of these combination belt and disc sanders.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/275214894940?epid=17044846630&hash=item401416075c:g:MdMAAOSwURxiMYHS 
They are really a woodworking tool, but with suitably fine abrasive paper fitted to that flat disc, it should be able to produce a very flat smooth surface, especially if the part is gently worked around and across the disc.

One further thought. Sometimes I have needed to make a fairly large surface fairly flat for gasket sealing purposes. The part may have been warped or repaired, and the need is to get it flat again.
One method I have used successfully, is laying wet/dry fine grit abrasive paper on a sheet of glass or a mirror.
If the sheet is kept wet it will stick to the glass, and its possible by moving the part around on the abrasive to very gently remove any high spots.

With a little ingenuity and patience its possible to get things flat and smooth without expensive precision machinery.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2022, 06:47:34 PM by Warpspeed »

joestue

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2022, 10:19:25 PM »
so its relatively easy to get .001" or less flatness across 2 inch diameter without much effort, you can do that with a file, by hand.

if you can't solder directly to the back of a microwave transistor, as in solder it to the copper heat sink directly..


for 5$ you can buy a sheet of indium
https://coldandcolder.com/products/indium/?variant=32417521795169
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

Mary B

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #56 on: April 11, 2022, 01:12:28 PM »
The big 1,000+ watt transistors MUST be soldered to the heat spreader to transfer heat better

Mary B

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Re: 12" Lathe
« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2022, 01:16:38 PM »
so its relatively easy to get .001" or less flatness across 2 inch diameter without much effort, you can do that with a file, by hand.

if you can't solder directly to the back of a microwave transistor, as in solder it to the copper heat sink directly..


for 5$ you can buy a sheet of indium
https://coldandcolder.com/products/indium/?variant=32417521795169

Interesting... I have to order some of that for CPU cooling!