Author Topic: Wood fired steam generator  (Read 3334 times)

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XeonPony

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Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Reply #90 on: January 12, 2018, 11:55:36 AM »
look up: closed combustion stove.

Basically the combustion air is drawn in through a large diameter tube, while the exhaust is discharged through a smaller tube in the middle. this preheats the combustion air. That's heat recovery in action, meaning your flame is hotter, thus discharges more heat into the room.

Embed that into a large thermal mass, once the fire is dead there is no out side air flowing through it

Now add a small fan to drive the draft and a screen to hold every thing center of it you have an incinerator to burn trash in while heating the place, again I made these out of old 40lb propane tanks (We had piles of them that would give a house a run for its money in size!) and mountains of black iron pipe.



Like this, works the same for wood, gas, what ever you're using.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 12:01:09 PM by XeonPony »
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

Nothing fails like prayer, Two hands clasped in work will achieve more in a minute then a billion will in a melenia in prayer. In other words go out and do some real good by helping!

MAL

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Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Reply #91 on: January 12, 2018, 11:55:59 AM »
I am a slow on a keyboard so I will respond to this part first.

 "For what you want to do you need to spend the money on high efficiency gear, but from what you say you been doing that, so lets optimize what you have to get it even more so!"

Let me worry about the cost I am nearly a genius at saving money. My  4 large picture windows cost $20 apiece, brand new. MY brand new Pella door cost $250 NORMALLY $2000,  My water heater cost  $150.  I don't buy LED bolbs unless I get them for less than a dollar.  ALL BRAND NEW STUFF!

LET ME WORRY ABOUT THE COST!!! this discussion is derailing my thread.

MAL

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Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Reply #92 on: January 12, 2018, 12:44:20 PM »
That is great stuff. I need to look up some of that and and see what will work here. I cant keep up with your typing, Thanks again.

My methods of cost reduction require me to know what I need sometimes years in advance so I can start the hunt, plotting and planning.   No impulse buying, no hired help...I am more than willing to spend  a ridiculous amount of time finding the deals...If I don't know how to do something, I learn how.

  What you are not getting is this all because of a deeply held religious conviction mentioned in an earlier post.  If You would like a more detailed explanation PM me.

XeonPony

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Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Reply #93 on: January 12, 2018, 01:12:27 PM »
Like I said ya pay one way or the other! That's the way I do it, my best shopping mall is the junk yards, the rest I make, mind you my large investment was in tools, Great ROI, as once you have that you can make tons of stuff on the cheap, and the fat 40lb propane tanks are great building fodder, so much you can do with them. and old gas pipe from houses and such is great too for cheap heat exchanger material.

If you are using an open fire place then all your heat is just from radiance so you are indeed losing a megaton of energy up the chimney, put the copper below the glass as that's where you'd want it, then between the pipe and glass put fine mesh fiberglass, will look good on the top side of glass. then a baffle between the out let and fire to force the smoke to take the long way around so it travels over the copper, this can be more glass or a stainless/copper, iron sheet. any drips will not hit the glass that way.

For the copper if you can't do one long roll, use 15% silver brazing rod, it is called silvphos, any hvac place will know what it is if you just ask for 15% silvphos. Have to heat the copper cherry red for the stuff to flow, no fire is going to melt the joint!

Best bang for effort and dollar though is a good built air tight with a closed combustion chamber, add in an air exchanger then it will get that house sweltering with 4 chunks of wood 2' by 1/2 foot.
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

Nothing fails like prayer, Two hands clasped in work will achieve more in a minute then a billion will in a melenia in prayer. In other words go out and do some real good by helping!

MAL

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Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Reply #94 on: January 12, 2018, 10:50:14 PM »
Hi ZeonPony,

Will that R22 ac coil A Frame style work with open flame hitting it/get plugged with soot?  Are there any issues with putting it above the flames in the hood?

Will map gas melt silvphos or will I need to use my acetylene torch?

$300 for a valve?  You need to let me do your shopping.  I probably could have found it for half that. :) Wait... what's this...It took me 10 seconds.  $117.90 OR BEST OFFER!!  I would have gotten that one for. $100
 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Johnson-Controls-Series-V47-Temperature-Actuated-Valve-V47AA-3C-3-8-Water-Valve/222763688602?epid=1405586588&hash=item33ddc0229a:g:1fMAAOSwmfhX2TfW

You don't have to pay through the nose for quality.  I hope you need another one.  I can find a cheaper one for my self.

I just took the opportunity to reread your posts without all the clutter of the other posters, and click on the links and reread those too.  It makes more sense that way.   At times I was loosing track of who I was speaking to.  There was definitely some really good info there. It was unfortunately still 63.2% over my head.  My interest in steam started with this thread, and it is only natural that I am not going to understand all the vernacular in an industry that I have never been associated with.   I need boiler 101 first and then my mind can get a little more "efficient".  Despite all the differing opinions I think this sound like a decent Idea...but don't worry I don't jump into anything head first.




XeonPony

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Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Reply #95 on: January 13, 2018, 09:44:59 AM »
think prices have changed in 20 years mate!

mapp works ok Oxy acetyle works best!

if you dissolved the aluminium off the coil it would be less issue, muriatic acid will get rid of it with out much attack on the copper, will release hydrogen during reaction. but his he left the aluminium fins on, you need to de-braze the cap tubes and braze on a manifold, the pipe diameter is 3/8th usually, you can find proper air over water coils that use half inch and wide spaced fines.

It is just one way, like any thing it depends on the system and what's available.


It is hard to explain a life time of experience in a bit of text, and hard to make it clear to some one new to the field.

FYI I know how to get things dirt cheap too, but that's not what I am talking about cost, time has a value, and every thing costs some thing in terms of energy.

that is what I mean there is no escaping the cost of a good system, time, cash, head ache it is all cost. I put the bulk of my cost upfront for a long lasting system

(I take time to engineer and look at each point and optimize it's efficiency as a component then the system as a whole, and it has paid off like I said my system I designed some  odd 10 to 13 years ago for a 14 foot trailer is now running my house with very little to no changes, need to add more panels and batteries though for longer run time)

fyi that is a good find they come up now and then for a steal on ebay, but rarely do you find them that low, and fyi that is USD not CAD dollars ;) if you find it cheaper it is either a knock off, or been rebuilt in a questionable manner or has hidden damage! you learn these things, or you got really damned lucky and they have no clue what they're selling, like the 1K dollar receiver (refrigerant) I got for 15 dollars!

All so note that is a -c not a -D D is 1/2 or 3/4 been so long now. that extra brass costs. All so not a bypass valve, see where these little things can get you good!

http://cgproducts.johnsoncontrols.com/met_pdf/977320.pdf
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 10:06:52 AM by XeonPony »
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

Nothing fails like prayer, Two hands clasped in work will achieve more in a minute then a billion will in a melenia in prayer. In other words go out and do some real good by helping!

MAL

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Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Reply #96 on: January 13, 2018, 11:32:19 AM »
Well If ordered you the wrong one I am afraid that there will be a 50% restocking fee.  I can find one for $300 if you want.

On a side note...if I go to the scrap yard and unload what I am selling to them, then load up what I want from them before I go back to the scale...is that shoplifting?   That's what I usually do, and it hasn't caused me any problems yet...

I fully understand your position on cost vs quality...and I used to use that motto myself...but more an more as time goes on it becomes less and less true.  The motto that I use now is "I have been ripped off by high priced junk, and I have been ripped off by low priced junk.  I would rather get ripped off by low priced junk."

You choose to spend your money, I choose to spend my time, and in the end I strive for the same quality.  It depends on if you want to use your time "efficiently" or your money "efficiently."   Time is not taxable YET!

Do you have a vision of your steam turbo generator?  Build or purchase boiler?  Control options?  type of generator? 

I am beginning my boiler 101 class soon.  I am not anywhere near being ready to start any form of RE...not for a couple of years or so I have way too many big projects on the table.  But when I am ready I want to have the know how, a stack of Cheap/bargain materials and a good plan all ready to go...Oh...I forgot the cost estimate.  I estimate every job I do for a customer.  Why wouldn't I estimate my own.

XeonPony

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Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Reply #97 on: January 13, 2018, 12:11:20 PM »
still looking into viability, all the cursory stuff has passed, it seems viable, now it is getting into those number things again and looking at each part of the system.

going to use a hot water tank as the base plat form as they are good to 60psi and my max design pressure will be 15psi, with high volume blow off valves. then need to figure how I want to do my super heating. but atm priority is solar and a moderate wind turbine given the winds we get.
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

Nothing fails like prayer, Two hands clasped in work will achieve more in a minute then a billion will in a melenia in prayer. In other words go out and do some real good by helping!

Mary B

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Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Reply #98 on: January 13, 2018, 07:55:36 PM »
Closed combustion is how many wood stoves, all pellet/corn stoves operate. Outside air intake so no drafts in the house from air going out the chimney!

MAL

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Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Reply #99 on: January 14, 2018, 01:35:53 AM »
Hi Mary,

  I do have outside air.  My biggest problem with it is that the glass is not sealed Air tight.  So the damper cannot be restricted at all.  It will never be as good as a stove but there is plenty of room for improvement.  I have always wanted to rebuild it with an air tight frame for the glass...and you can tell where the glass is washed from the inside air leaking in to feed the flame.   You would think after nearly 40 years here I would have found some time somewhere.

XeonPony

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Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Reply #100 on: January 14, 2018, 12:43:51 PM »
only took me 3.5 years to get around to hooking up 3 wires, so no need to feel bad lol, some times it just needs to be stared at for a while.
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

Nothing fails like prayer, Two hands clasped in work will achieve more in a minute then a billion will in a melenia in prayer. In other words go out and do some real good by helping!

MAL

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Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Reply #101 on: January 14, 2018, 05:16:23 PM »



"I have been watching the guy in the first replys Vids for some years now. he seems to take a fairly scientific approach and has tested and moved on from many different designs of steam engine. As he puts it, development of his knowledge and experience. Can't fault that.
I notice he has moved on from the tesla ( and a few others) to a bladed turbine now.  Looks like the torque converter out of a car modified to me with all the vanes in it.  he claims his latest setup to be capable of 10KW. That's real good power."






Hi George, I have been trying to find this 10Kw generator, but I am not sure who you are talking about.  Do you have a link or a name?

MAL

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Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Reply #102 on: January 14, 2018, 05:53:17 PM »
I found this Generator on Ebay, But I am not sure what I am looking at.  Is this a DIY or store bought set up? 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-kw-28-volts-100amp-diesel-generator-lister-petter-/222788593244

MAL

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Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Reply #103 on: January 14, 2018, 09:26:46 PM »
Hi XeonPony,     

In a previous post you mentioned preheating the water to your tankless water heater.  I had considered doing something very similar when I rebuild the fire place.  My shower is much closer to the fire place than it is the tankless water heater is, so I thought about heating the cold water to the shower with submerged coils in a barrel of heated water. 

When you said that you preheated before the water heater It makes more sense, but I thought that the tankless water heater was activated by water flow...not water temperature...in other words, I thought the water heater will run on demand no matter what the temperature of the supply water is.  Am I wrong about that?   

XeonPony

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Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Reply #104 on: January 14, 2018, 09:46:15 PM »
No you are not.
To under stand, A tankless water heater has 2 variables, flow, and heat, what that means at a fixed flow rate it can heat the water by X, so say water going in is 6c at 3gpm it can have the out going water to 50c that is a 44c lift! or heat gain. So when water flows it will fire in proportion to flow to maintain that fixed lift!

This is fixed, so hotter the water going into it, the hotter the water going out will be as the "lift" is fixed, so if the incoming water is very cold, you don't get as a hot of a shower.

when sizing a tankless water heater you need to know the flow rate, incoming water temp, and the delta T of the heater at that flow rate.

our situation incoming water was 0c just on the verge of freezing, after going through the exhuast heat recovery it was 10+ after a couple hours of run time even hotter!
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

Nothing fails like prayer, Two hands clasped in work will achieve more in a minute then a billion will in a melenia in prayer. In other words go out and do some real good by helping!

frackers

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Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Reply #105 on: January 15, 2018, 05:50:48 AM »
This UK based series was pretty good - Planet Mechanics. The episode with a woodgas conversion of a pickup provides a lot of  clues on how to go about it in a practical way - ignore most of the gee whizz commentary, just look at what they are making!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO5PBLyIN60
Robin Down Under (Or Are You Up Over)

XeonPony

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Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Reply #106 on: January 15, 2018, 07:11:29 AM »
Biogas generators are super easy! I made a few using 55g barrels an old fridge compressor and some propane tanks.

Bioreactor > Rubber balast balloon > low pressure cut out switch > gas drier > Compressor > Coleascent dryer > 3 100lbs propane tanks > 260psi high cut off switch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1VbeHKSqr8

So what happens is as the biomass is digested co2, methane built up in the balloon (once the pressure builds up enough it triggers the compressor)

you can store ALOT of biogas at 260psi in those tanks, now where near the amount of propane but enough for bbqing, cooking with out interruptions

Takes a long time to get to pressure with 55g drum, but it was a prototype, next one will be a 500g furnace tank.

what goes into the bioreactor? blended scraps, animal waste, purreed yard waste. The bio reactor was heated with a small glycole heater you get for cars at 32c.

the waste much from bioreactor was used to fertilize the garden, it is nitrogen and nutrient rich

My main goal with that was for running my propane fridge, stove, and small water heater properly rejeted of course.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoJTlhfjpXQ

for my system I used 30 weight air compressor oil in the fridge compressor, the suction side gas dryer is very important! as well. and a way to fill the oil to the compressor now and then (Rare)
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 07:39:17 AM by XeonPony »
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

Nothing fails like prayer, Two hands clasped in work will achieve more in a minute then a billion will in a melenia in prayer. In other words go out and do some real good by helping!

MAL

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Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Reply #107 on: January 15, 2018, 02:00:15 PM »
This UK based series was pretty good - Planet Mechanics. The episode with a woodgas conversion of a pickup provides a lot of  clues on how to go about it in a practical way - ignore most of the gee whizz commentary, just look at what they are making!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO5PBLyIN60

That was cool. What most of those types of programs usually edit out of the final cut, is the cost.  It was refreshing that they admitted that it was not cheaper than Propane at the end of the program.  I am not sure why they didn't use the other half of the large tank and make two tanks.

MAL

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Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Reply #108 on: January 15, 2018, 02:29:37 PM »
Hi ZeonPony,

Over the years I have watched several videos on most of these forms of RE that we have been discussing...and they are all cool, and look like fun.  I have seen that second video  where the kid mixes the poop slurry with his hands...I don't think I would do it that way.   I am looking to eventually be all electric, I am not that far from it now so It would not be any modifications to my home. 


I have found the big brother to the "Energy Bootlegger"  Built with a very similar construction technique, but it has 2 boilers and super heater that drive a steam engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmvC8PLmVag

I have also watched several videos about commercial power generating stations.  From what I have seen so far they all use turbines with the axle in line with the input steam instead of perpendicular like the Pelton Wheel.  That should say something about the turbo being a possible option.