Author Topic: The endless micro-hydro project  (Read 1108 times)

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Kenny

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The endless micro-hydro project
« on: February 08, 2018, 11:12:14 AM »
Hi all, i'm new here...

Bought the materials to build an axial flux pelton wheel hydroturbine in september... To get some juice out of the creek running beside the house.

Knew nothing at all about electrotechnique, didn't even know the difference between ceramic magnets and neos. Worked a lot and i never got it working well, so i'm studying and trying configs all winter to have a setting ready for the snow melt.

I have "unlimited" 19 ga. wire and unlimited 5/8 diameter x 1/8 thickness neos to get a birotor axial flux working.

I'll shoot photos later.

Bruce S

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2018, 11:19:37 AM »
Welcome to the forum

Cheers;
Bruce S
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

hiker

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2018, 05:49:28 PM »
Picts would be nice......😜
WILD in ALASKA

Kenny

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2018, 10:48:30 PM »
My 0 watt turbine...

Still can't get a volt out of it... Any idea?









SparWeb

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2018, 11:15:37 PM »
Well the first thing that's obvious is that you're having fun!

Did you solder the wire ends together?  One open connection would turn your output to zero.
It looks single-phase.  What resistance do you measure between the two leads?

The magnets look 1/8" thick and doubled-up.  Since they're on a 1/16" sawblade, the magnetic flux that should be transferring from pole to pole through the metal is probably escaping through the back of the disk.  You could improve it by stacking 3 or 4 sawblades together.

It sort of looks like you can disassemble the stator... is that true?  If so, you have a setup you can test and tweak until you have it right.  I like that.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024

SparWeb

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2018, 11:17:10 PM »
"endless micro-hydro project"??  You wouldn't want it to be finished too soon, otherwise it wouldn't be a hobby!
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024

Kenny

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2018, 11:54:18 PM »
Quote
Did you solder the wire ends together?  One open connection would turn your output to zero.
It looks single-phase.  What resistance do you measure between the two leads?

Did not solder as it's the eternal test machine... But i get a OHMS reading, not sure about the reading, the needle just hit it's maximum on the right side, i use it to check connections.

Quote
The magnets look 1/8" thick and doubled-up.  Since they're on a 1/16" sawblade, the magnetic flux that should be transferring from pole to pole through the metal is probably escaping through the back of the disk.  You could improve it by stacking 3 or 4 sawblades together.

I think about all the dead blades i threw in the garbage container last season (i'm a carpenter) and i cry as i only have 1 more dead blade here... I'll put the grinder zipcut in every iron things around here to get more iron discs.

Quote
It sort of looks like you can disassemble the stator... is that true?  If so, you have a setup you can test and tweak until you have it right.  I like that.

I'm dreaming of the day i will shoot nut locker on that rod once for all...

I'm also working on a double ceiling fan wind turbine and a TOP SECRET new invention project using peltier modules... If the modules i bought 40 days ago finally get here someday. 


electrondady1

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2018, 08:24:03 AM »
 you need to start from scratch . check out the archives for alternator layout. you have every thing you  need to  make electricity but the proportion/relationships  of your alternator  are messed up.
first of all you need more poles or wider magnets ..
i use 50/50 spacing . meaning  on a magnet disk the space between magnets is the same size as the magnet.
i think the Dans use something  like  60/40 on their big alternators.

you can make a magnet pole from multiple magnets laid out side by side.


  it looks like the coils are buried in behind metal plates .
that's not right .
the coils need to be cast into a polyester or epoxy resin disk to form the stator disk.
that stator disk needs to be wider than your magnet disks so your mounting won't interfere with the magnetic flux path
there should be nothing between the mags and the coils but 1/16"(2mm) of air on ether side .
 i count 9 coils and 12 poles so it should be wired three phase, 12 coils and 16 poles or 15coils over 20 mags are also 3 phase.    the space between the mags looks to be something like 3 times the width of a mag. you can tighten them up by using more poles.

the air gap ( the space between the mag disks) should be the same dimension as  the thickness of your stack up magnets plus a clearance .
yours looks too wide apart.
 the thickness of the coils/stator should also be the thickness of you stack of mags but it's difficult to build a strong stator that is less that 3/8

stacking magnets increases flux density by about 20 percent but does not double it.
 if you have unlimited magnets, consider using multiple  magnets side by side to increase the size of the pole. each pole can be 4 or 6 magnets

you want to have the space between the surface of your magnet disks  be slightly less than the distance between magnets on the disks so the flux wants to travel across the air gap through your copper  rather than sideways to the next mag.

warning building alternators is addictive.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 10:20:02 AM by electrondady1 »

Kenny

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2018, 11:02:55 AM »
Quote
it looks like the coils are buried in behind metal plates .
that's not right .
the coils need to be cast into a polyester or epoxy resin disk to form the stator disk.

It's not a metal plate, its a 1/16 plastic plate as there is no epoxy in stores around here, should not interfer as there  is a clearance for the coils, does it?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 11:12:01 AM by Kenny »

hiker

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2018, 11:22:22 AM »
I see only two wires out...is the third wire hiding??   You could do a simple single phase ..8 coils..8 mags..bult a few sawbblade mills couple still flying now and then...used on my motorhome or top of shop...ILE dig around in my old files if you want Picts...looks to me yours is not wired up right for 3 phase...I belive I have a diagram ....
WILD in ALASKA

Kenny

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2018, 11:28:16 AM »
Quote
I see only two wires out...is the third wire hiding??

I wired it as single phase for test mode...

I will threephase it as soon as i get more than 0 volts

hiker

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2018, 12:43:16 PM »
Well that's the problem...9 and 12 is a 3 phase setup..single phase..needs the coils to read ..north ..south...and so on...3 phase all coils laid out the same..with single phase you can hook up a 12 v supply to your stator...then hold a magnet over the coils..the coils should..push..pull..push ..pull..as you go around...you need a even number of mags and coils..for single phase...check the search box..top left of page...should be able to find ..3 phase wiring diagram..??
WILD in ALASKA

Kenny

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2018, 01:03:15 PM »
Quote
should be able to find ..3 phase wiring diagram..??

I use the star 3phase wiring, already have my diode bridge rectifier ready for this

Quote
i use 50/50 spacing . meaning  on a magnet disk the space between magnets is the same size as the magnet.
i think the Dans use something  like  60/40 on their big alternators.

Tryed that on single phase, added mags and got 2 volts and few mAmps out of it...


hiker

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2018, 01:23:56 PM »
You need at least two or three rectifers for 3 phase..three wire out.!
WILD in ALASKA

Kenny

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2018, 01:36:10 PM »
Did it like that:



Kenny

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2018, 01:39:04 PM »
By reducing the space between the mags at 50/50, it turns into a 16 pole rotor.... 9 coils 16 poles ?!?

hiker

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2018, 01:43:08 PM »
Here's a couple Picts..still looking for 3 phase pic..
WILD in ALASKA

hiker

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2018, 01:47:03 PM »
That's a plywood stator...with cut outs for coils...coils are epoxied in place...great little mill..used it on my motorhome for a few years..still kickin...😜
WILD in ALASKA

Kenny

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2018, 07:59:48 PM »
So i'm here: 9 coils  x 16 magnets (had 12 but tryed to reduce the space between the mags)  = 2 volts 2 mA in single phase, will try a 3 phase wiring tonight...

Rainwulf

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2018, 03:52:05 AM »
Something is horribly wrong to get 2 volts 2ma.

Are you sure you have your magnets orientated correctly? north on one side, south on the other disk?


electrondady1

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2018, 09:33:01 AM »
if you can fit 16 mags in you need 12 coils for three phase.
 4 coils per phase.
i don't understand what Reainwulf is talking about . is sound very wrong.
 you want the mags polarity to alternate as they create a circle on each  mag rotor
when you bring them together they will align themselves.

nsnsnsns  mags
====== coils
snsnsnsn  mags

 
the coils should be a diameter wide enough so that the outside edge of a coil is just touching a magnet while the center hole of the coil is directly over a magnet.
so as it rotates the the two sides of the coil are over two magnets. north and south polarity

as it continues to rotate,  the sides of the coil  are over  the next two magnets which have different polarity .  south and north.  it's that change in polarity that causes the electrons to flow out the wire. the faster the change the higher the voltage.
it's very helpful at the beginning of this learning experience  to be able to set up  a mag rotor that can rotate at a  known speed. that way you can experiment with  a single coil and get it to produce what you need.


 










« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 10:34:11 AM by electrondady1 »

Kenny

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2018, 06:42:09 PM »
Quote
if you can fit 16 mags in you need 12 coils for three phase.

So i'm on for another drawing and winding session for 12 coils 16 magnets!

electrondady1

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2018, 09:04:29 AM »

 there are guys on this board that are experts at micro hydro .
if you explain what your flow rate is and how much of a drop you have they can tell you just what the potential is.
 i don't know anything about that stuff.
 i build vertical mills that produce 14 volts dc at 60 rpm.


as far as the alternator goes, you can copy an existing design exactly, without understanding what's going on, or you can learn how the thing works and build one with what you have.
i think the best thing for you to do is set up one magnet rotor on a shaft with bearings and figure out how to make it turn at a speed comparable to what your hydro impeller will make it turn.

then start to experiment with just 1 coil.

you can then mess around with different magnet and coil configurations

Canadian tire sells resin.  so do most boat places.






 


 

keithturtle

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2018, 02:01:01 AM »
This is some of Hugh's older work, but the principles are what he has built off of in the more recent stuff.  The details are very revealing, and understanding them will save you lots of unnecessary aggravation

Turtle
soli deo gloria

hiker

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2018, 07:58:22 PM »
WILD in ALASKA

electrondady1

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2018, 09:13:57 AM »
hey small world  i know that Markus guy from the vertical site wind stuff ed started.

Kenny

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2018, 11:11:31 PM »
Winded the 12 x 80 turns x 19 ga. coils and mounted it all on the 1/16 plastic sheet stator...

Now i have to wire it and i found many schemes on the web.

I'll show you pictures and readings as soon as it's done.


hiker

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2018, 01:38:27 PM »
Search box....coils....
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dbcollen

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2018, 09:14:25 PM »
you also need to series the coils appropriately, start finish-start finish-start finish. if you connect start-start-finish-finish the volts will cancel and you will have zero.

hiker

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Re: The endless micro-hydro project
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2018, 10:27:35 PM »
Search box..coils...do that from the main page..not your posting page..otherwise only stuff from your posts show..!! ?
WILD in ALASKA