Author Topic: When the power goes out  (Read 22473 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

bigrockcandymountain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Country: ca
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2022, 08:20:17 AM »
Genset inside, exhaust piped outside.  14616-0
Not inspected.  Probably not even close to code. I believe engines inside need to be in a 3 hour fire rated room or something crazy like that.  This is saskatchewan and kind of the wild west so probably don't do what i do, but it works good for me. 

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2022, 10:27:22 AM »
JW
More like this:
https://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=Xantrex+ProSine&_sacat=0

Since you and I need 60 Hz. 
Which just makes it 20% better than anything Scruff can come up with!
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

DamonHD

  • Administrator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4125
  • Country: gb
    • Earth Notes
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2022, 11:09:11 AM »
Harsh, but harsh!  ;)

Rgds

Damon
Podcast: https://www.earth.org.uk/SECTION_podcast.html

@DamonHD@mastodon.social

Scruff

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 698
  • Country: ie
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2022, 12:07:28 PM »
Genset inside, exhaust piped outside.

Fair play. Simple.
I definitely woulda over-complicated it..but having a 90dB rotating mass in the corner would drive me bonkers.

We often have big lecky atmosphere heaters running off a genset...it's crazy the waste heat coming of the genset to supply the radiator 30m away.
The stage managers never let me park a 160kVA twinset in the VIP lounge to warm bottoms on.  ::)

More like this:
https://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=Xantrex+ProSine&_sacat=0

They're insanely reliable...get a used one they go for about $400


Which just makes it 20% better than anything Scruff can come up with!

I had to think about that so hard 1 hurt mys€lf Sp@rW€b.
3 phase 20% better than single.
400V 50hz.  :P

Small cables brother, half the inverter transformer weight.

taylorp035

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1206
  • Country: us
  • Stressed spelled backwards is Desserts
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2022, 01:39:32 PM »
I recently bought a 2kW sine inverter for when the power is out for more than ~2 hours and the fridge starts to warm up.  We usually loose it once a year for a few hours.  I should be able to run it off the 1.7 kWh Li-ion battery I just built for a while since it only draw about 210 watts while the compressor is on.  I tried it out a few weeks ago for the afternoon and it worked well.  If that gives up, I'll run it off a car, probably the 01' BMW 740iL with the water cooled alternator that's rated at 150 amps.   I also have a 400w and 150w inverter for my work computer so i don't have to spend $40 driving to work.

Mary B

  • Administrator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3179
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2022, 11:04:43 AM »
If you are a ham radio operator or listen to shortwave go Samlex PST series, it has the least amount of radio interference. The Xantrex lived in my house for all of 2 days before I sent it packing, way to much radio interference!

Mary B

  • Administrator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3179
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2022, 11:12:43 AM »
Genset inside, exhaust piped outside.

Fair play. Simple.
I definitely woulda over-complicated it..but having a 90dB rotating mass in the corner would drive me bonkers.

We often have big lecky atmosphere heaters running off a genset...it's crazy the waste heat coming of the genset to supply the radiator 30m away.
The stage managers never let me park a 160kVA twinset in the VIP lounge to warm bottoms on.  ::)

More like this:
https://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=Xantrex+ProSine&_sacat=0

They're insanely reliable...get a used one they go for about $400


Which just makes it 20% better than anything Scruff can come up with!

I had to think about that so hard 1 hurt mys€lf Sp@rW€b.
3 phase 20% better than single.
400V 50hz.  :P

Small cables brother, half the inverter transformer weight.

I was in the genset room a few times at the casino when it started up... big Cat 6 cylinder diesel that could run a town of 1,000 people. When it fired up it was LOUD, there was a 5 second warning to cover your ears then the slats over the 10'x10' radiator in the wall would slap open and forget hearing anything for awhile. We HATED when we dropped to generator, some of the slot machines had issues and we would have to go around and reset them royally irritating the players!

The other big genset for the hotel was outside, another big Cat 6 cylinder that had problems way to often. Cat finally overhauled it on site. Pistons the size of 5 gallon buckets in that one! They replaced pistons, the entire head assembly, new crank, machined the block on site in a special jig on a flatbed trailer... it was interesting to watch

OperaHouse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1309
  • Country: us
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2022, 03:18:21 PM »
This is really loud.



Eight J79 jet engines (out of ten).  I was there for a rare startup of this historic site. This was before they knew what a gas generator was supposed to look like.  Exhaust blows on a 40 foot fan, no direct connect.  Only two were made.  ASME has a book on historic gas generators and this one is not in it!

Scruff

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 698
  • Country: ie
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2022, 10:00:34 PM »
a rare startup

 :o

Where's the iphone charger?

MattM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1178
  • Country: us
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2022, 10:17:08 PM »
I wonder how big of solar panel would fit in an outdoor glass table?  You could leave a hole for an umbrella during spring showers.  But otherwise, most lawn furniture just soaks up the sun.  Maybe put LED bulbs around it for ambient night lighting.

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2022, 02:36:05 PM »
Neat idea, Matt,
It wouldn't be hard to test how much the glass of the table drops the output.  If it's only a few %, then that would be a really nice-looking and useful mod.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

ChrisOlson

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3642
  • Country: us
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2022, 01:28:41 PM »
We moved to our retirement lake home at the beginning of 2020. In fall 2021 we installed a large community backup power system for lake residences, resorts, restaurants and marinas on the lake. The lake we now live on is a quite large lake with over 100 miles of shoreline. The layout is such that county roads run on the south and western shores of the lake for 47 miles. The lake has a large island with about 30 residences on it. We own a large estate on the east shore with 640 acres and a mile of shoreline property. My wife is president of the Lake Assn.

This area is very rural and the condition of the power distribution is not very good here. It was run by an electric utility with purchased power from Xcel Energy. The HV interstate transmission lines are extremely vulnerable to lightning strikes, which destroys substation equipment and knocks out power to large areas. The economic impact of an extended power outage is quite severe for the businesses on the south and west shores of the lake.

So my wife spearheaded the effort for the Lake Assn to form our own power cooperative serving 1,337 members. We purchased two Caterpillar 3516B generators, 2.25MW apiece on prime, 2.5MW apiece on standby at a cost of $1.3 million each. We installed them at the substation that feeds the lake businesses and residences. These are distribution voltage generators operating at 7,200 volts. The switchgear bypasses the substation transformers that are usually damaged by lightning strikes. The Lake Assn covers three townships along the lakeshores, so we also got financial help from the townships. Previous to formation of the new power cooperative the uptime of the system was 94% with 22 days per year when the system was down. The generators were installed in Sept 2021 and to-date have accumulated 96 hours of running time with an uptime of 99.9% for the cooperative. I maintain and operate the diesel generating plant for the Lake Assn, and am president of the power cooperative.

Localized grid backup systems have been largely ignored in modern times. The system we purchased and installed powers about 270 miles of lines in three townships and is very cost effective, easily competing with cost of power purchased from Xcel. It is much more environmentally friendly, cost effective and efficient than the 1,337 services it powers all putting in their own individual backup systems. The only downtime involved when a transformer or HV fuse link is blown, is the time it takes to start the generators and bring them online. The cost of its installation, maintenance and operation is paid for thru Lake Assn fees to members, so it is a true community owned and operated cooperative that covers several hundred square miles.

In the engineering world this is called "economy of scale". "Economy of scale" is why standalone off-grid power costs many times more than utility power. The environmental impact per kWh also goes hand-in-hand with "economy of scale". When the backup system is online, we power 1,337 electrical services on only 0.15 gal/hr per service, which costs that homeowner or business less than 12 cents/kWh at today's diesel fuel prices. With vastly improved uptime over the old system that relied on central power generation from Xcel in another state.

When we purchased our lake home it was off off-grid. Typical with off-grid homes, especially those the size of ours (3,200 sq ft split level), it was very expensive to operate the power system costing us about 62 cents/kWh. After forming the cooperative we laid an under-water cable 1.5 miles across the lake from the big island to our place and 7 other residences on the east shore to provide utility power services. All the new services were buried so there is no unsightly powerlines on poles. It was one of the best moves we ever made as we can now enjoy fishing and boating, working in my shop and going about our life without worrying about batteries and cleaning snow off solar panels.

The seven residences on this side of the lake, including ours, are all 1.5-3.0 million dollar lake homes originally built by doctors, and they were built off-grid because the utility power didn't exist here. We bought our property from an estate and weren't really too worried about the off-grid aspect since we were used to that. But the cost of operating it, and labor time required, was astronomical. After we got the utility power, over the winter we sold our twin Outback Radian inverters, forklift batteries, solar panels, controllers, etc. to somebody who can make better use of them. The only thing we kept is our 150KW Caterpillar diesel generator which now supplies power to the cooperative when the standby system is running at the substation. It reduces the overall load on the Cat 3516B's. There are 46 other cooperative members that also have standby generators, which we incorporated into the standby system much like we did ours.

it is testament to the reliability, efficiency and cost effectiveness of distributed local power generation managed by communities instead of large utilities. The six other residences that were off-grid still have their solar panels, inverters, batteries, etc.. But it is very difficult for us to integrate that into the cooperative system because their output is not reliable or constant, and it is insignificant in the big picture. As president of the cooperative I have worked with those homeowners on a solution to allow them to use their systems to receive a break on utility rates. But the fact is, they can't generate power at the same cost we can, and as a small cooperative we can't subsidize them like the government can with taxpayer money. So at the present they use their systems to disconnect from the utility at certain times. But they are on the utility more than off it, even though each one of those homes has $70,000 worth of off-grid power equipment. Previous to the utility power they just ran generators like we did.

clockmanFRA

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 952
  • Country: fr
    • Renewable Energy creation
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2022, 04:13:51 AM »
Nice to hear from you Chris.

And yes what you have done is good for your community.

Here in Europe, mostly Germany and Spain, there are many community Electricity generating/distribution projects where the community have taken to a 'not for profit' organization. And pay credit for PV, and green/RE generation within the community. They are still connected to the main countries Grid and can sell surplus or import when required especially in the Winter months.

Chris, your endeavours over the years have always inspired me to achieve better things. 
« Last Edit: April 17, 2022, 06:36:59 AM by clockmanFRA »
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

ChrisOlson

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3642
  • Country: us
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2022, 12:33:25 PM »
Here in Europe, mostly Germany and Spain, there are many community Electricity generating/distribution projects where the community have taken to a 'not for profit' organization. And pay credit for PV, and green/RE generation within the community. They are still connected to the main countries Grid and can sell surplus or import when required especially in the Winter months.

Our goal was to get back to the REA of 1936 to provide reliable service with time proven generating capacity. This eventually went to corporate conglomerates operating a national grid system. They don't care what happens in rural areas because the cost per subscriber goes way up in rural areas due to the miles of transmission line and infrastructure that has to be maintained.

My position was that while we cannot afford to subsidize individual PV installations, the cooperative can install our own at the generating plant. This gets back to economy of scale. But keep in mind we are regulated by the Public Service Commission and this requires approval of the members of the co-op.

Another problem with PV is that it is anything but so-called "green energy". This is not widely addressed by "green energy" advocates. PV is a toxic nightmare of unrecyclable heavy earth metals. A PV array produces 300x more toxic waste, per kWh of generating capacity, than nuclear power plants. PV is more environmentally toxic than leaking underground diesel fuel storage tanks. So to operate a utility scale PV array we have to have a hazardous materials site cleanup plan, be bonded and insured for eventual decommissioning and/or replacement. This makes PV financially impracticable without government subsidies, and diesel power to be more environmentally friendly, especially with the modern Tier IV Caterpillar G-drive engines we have. They are state-of-the-art low-emissions engines.

Do our members want to go there? That hasn't been decided yet. While the fuel source for PV is "free", the amount of diesel power it takes to mine the raw materials, process them, manufacture and transport to final point of use, manufacture batteries and inverters, then dispose of them at end-of-life and figure out what to do with the toxic materials - you may as well run a diesel generator. We need government subsidy for "green energy" to make it financially practical.

Regardless, our cooperative project is a success in improving the reliability of our rural infrastructure for the Lake Assn and our 1,337 members. Where we go with it in the future remains to be seen. But we have managed to make not necessary elaborate schemes involving PV, inverters, batteries, or even home standby generators, to deal with extended power outages by putting in a reliable backup source at the supply point. You're not necessarily at the mercy of the large power conglomerates if the local community can be rallied to take control of the situation, and we managed to do just that in a sparsely populated rural area that covers several hundred square miles. We know we have several areas where there is problematic overhead 7,200 volt lines. But we are already in the process of replacing those with buried 7.2KV lines - something that would never happen under control of Xcel, because Xcel doesn't care about this area. This is an example - my wife and I drove over 200 miles of lines, shooting video of them to identify problem areas that are future power outages waiting to happen. Here we have power poles leaning out over the lakeshore. We are taking the pro-active approach, these are coming down and being replaced with trenched-in lines - this infrastructure is over 50 years old.


bigrockcandymountain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Country: ca
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2022, 01:02:51 PM »
Interesting stuff Chris.  The infrastructure here is very similar, and just last week, rural residents went without power for 6 days on account of overhead lines failing.  It was a pretty epic ice storm, but underground would have been fine.

Our cost of diesel is higher, and our distances are way longer per user, so i would be interested to see how the numbers work here. 

I have a little sunnier outlook on solar panels than you.  From what i understand, the recycling is just gettting started, since it has only been maybe 20 years since solar became a large thing.  Most panels are usable for 50 years, so the recycling stream is just getting started.  I know my panles from 20 years ago are all still making power and not getting scrapped any time soon. 

Any more details on exact costs to the end users vs normal grid service would be very interesting.  In this area, you might have a service on every ten square miles, so I'm thinking it might not be as feasible as where you are. 

My dream would be a small grid scale solar install and a small hydroelectric dam with pumped hydro for storage.  Get maybe 100 neighbors signed up and see how it competes with normal grid power. You'd still have the challenge of maintaining the power lines though. At some magic number of distance between users, it becomes more economical for everyone to just be off grid.

 To me, that is the most elegant renewable grid setup.  Seeing as how i have no grid connection, I'm mostly just an armchair observer. 

Mary B

  • Administrator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3179
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2022, 01:05:59 PM »
Chris I have tried to get my town to put in its own small generator, like you I am on Xcel's crappy system that dates back to the REA days(older than I am!) with MANY outages each year. They whine that it is to expensive despite the constant damage it causes(I need a new TV AGAIN thanks to Xcel!). There is a problem substation on the distribution lines that feed 4 small towns and when it goes down it takes all of the towns offline. They keep digging replacement parts out of the scrap piles in their storage yards... and buying up 70 year old junk from other utilities to keep it running. MPUC is after them to sell this area off to the local REA that has excellent up time and service. REA tech could be here in 30-45 minutes. Xcel's technician takes 3++ hours to get on site to even start assessing damage.

ChrisOlson

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3642
  • Country: us
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2022, 02:01:36 PM »
Being we are regulated by the PSC, our rates are determined by them. We are a non-profit where any profits are either invested into the system, or returned to the cooperative members via dividend checks at the end of the fiscal year. So at the present, our rates are 4.3 cents/kWh over Xcel's commercial interstate rates as we are a reseller of interstate power. What we do with that 4.3 cents/kWh determines how we operate our system. If the members vote to replace lines, then we replace lines. If we need to procure financing for a project, like our generators, then we procure financing like any other business and we have loan payments to make.

This project was financially feasible for us because the service area in the Lake Assn is more densely populated around the lakeshore than the townships in general. This is a tourism area. Our lake is the premier walleye lake in northern Wisconsin and it attracts millions of tourism dollars from the Twin Cities area. It is an incredibly beautiful place to live and the water clarity is 40-50 ft visibility. The water is so clean that most of the residences pull their water directly from the lake and the water quality is better than what you get from a drilled well.

So this area is not exactly what you'd call "poor" or under-financed. The lakeshores are dotted with $2 million dollar lake homes. Lake Assn revenue is over $4.5 million per year thru taxes and Lake Assn fees to maintain the pristine conditions of the area. So money is the least of the worries here.

When my wife took over the Lake Assn in late 2020 one of the primary things on her agenda was to improve the aging infrastructure here. It was thrown in haphazardly over 50 years ago and has never been maintained unless it breaks. The people living here always assumed we were at the mercy of Xcel (formerly Northern States Power). We educated them on the fact that it is not the case. I was unanimously appointed to take over the power cooperative that we decided to form, a position I do not wish to hold long term. I have gotten the ball rolling to make it reality, but in the long term we moved here to enjoy the pristine beauty, fishing and boating and outdoor activities that this area is famous for. We are retired and we're only 62, we retired at age 60. So we intend to enjoy it.

At the present PV recycling might be getting started, but it is not a pretty picture at this point in time. It may get better with time, that remains to be seen. My position is that we could operate a PV array at the generating plant, but it is up the members to decide if they want that. My job as president of the co-op is to research the financial feasibility of it and present this to the members to make the decision. The cost and benefits has to outweigh the liability. At the present time, without subsidies from the federal or state level, that is not the case. But that does not mean we can't improve the reliability and condition of the infrastructure to keep the power on, just that PV is not the way to accomplish that unless we can get a "free ride" thru federal subsidies.

ChrisOlson

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3642
  • Country: us
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2022, 02:14:34 PM »
Chris I have tried to get my town to put in its own small generator, like you I am on Xcel's crappy system that dates back to the REA days(older than I am!) with MANY outages each year.

Mary, I am 100% familiar with how Xcel operates. The only thing they care about is the bottom line for their shareholders. They do not care about these rural areas they serve, they only fix it if it breaks, and then all they do is a patch job.

In the early days of the REA there was localized backup and primary generating facilities. Some were hydroelectric. Some were diesel with Fairbanks-Morse generators running on HFO. It worked really well. Then the power companies became huge conglomerates and they strung up 300KV interstate transmission lines all over, went to central nuclear, coal and natural gas fired plants. But those substations they feed have never been maintained or upgraded for lightning protection. Those interstate lines are huge lightning attractors and when a bolt hits one the surge blows a 80 ton transformer right off the pad at the substation and leaves it in a smoldering heap with burning transformer oil all over the place. Been there, done it, seen it, dealt with it. And then Xcel claims the only replacement transformer is in Milwaukee and it's gonna take a week to get it here.

That is why I put in two Caterpillar generators.

ChrisOlson

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3642
  • Country: us
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2022, 04:05:59 PM »
Chris I have tried to get my town to put in its own small generator

Mary, unfortunately I don't know if your town can put in their own generator unless they have some sort of power cooperative, or are the power company for the town or city. Do you get your bill from Xcel, or from the city?

It also requires more than a small generator. The generating plant has to be able to handle starting inductive loads with either a staged soft-start switchgear, or the modern electronic engines can increase their fuel rate to many times normal rated power when they accept load. This puts tremendous strain on your plant to get refrigeration compressors, blower motors, well pump motors and the like all turning again after the power went out. The generators have to be capable of feeding your distribution line voltage (either 4160 or 7200) to bypass damaged substation transformers. I like the Cat 3516's I think better than the Cummins QSK60's. While the Cummins plants are proven backup for hospitals, high-rises, etc., the Cat plants have over 4 billion operating hours worldwide on prime duty over the last 40+ years and Caterpillar has a service network second to none. You can go to Amundsen-Scott South Pole Station and what do they have in the power plant keeping everyone alive down there? Cat 3516's and 3512's. How do they get the fuel to those generators in the most inhospitable off-grid place on earth? With overland transports from McMurdo pulled by Cat Challengers over 1,000 miles.


Anyway there is quite a bit of planning that goes into installing utility-level generators. Building for the power plant housing generators, switchgears, cooling system, fueling. The Caterpillar plants are a pleasure for your power plant operator to service and maintain because they never break. They last 100,000 hrs on prime duty and when they are needed they just run and can accept full rated load in 30 seconds.

Not a valid vimeo URL

ChrisOlson

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3642
  • Country: us
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2022, 12:08:10 AM »
We have another bit of a problem with our new power project. It has nothing to do with keeping the power on, but it has to do with a telecom that has traditionally provided wired landline telephone service and internet to homes and businesses, and they have leased space on the utility poles to run their wires below the powerlines. When those old power poles are taken out and we go to trenched-in lines, the telecom cannot bury their wired services in the same trench behind the trencher with power wires. The underground power wires are not the problem with electrical interference, as those are coaxial type cables with a center conductor and grounded shield with an insulation layer over the shield. The bigger problem is having communications lines in the same trench in the event we have to service an underground break in a power cable at some point.

In this area, people consider wired communications services to be obsolete. It has been replaced by cellular and cell data. And some people, like us, have StarLink internet. So the telecom is fighting us tooth and nail because now if they want to continue offering wired services they have to find their own right-of-way lease along the county highway. And they have an under-water communications cable that runs from the mainland to the mansions on the big island. The residents of the big island don't use it anymore and have voted to have it discontinued. The Lake Assn, and Wisconsin DNR, is requiring its removal, which is quite expensive but is the telecom's cost.

In many areas, telecoms are notorious for just abandoning existing infrastructure to put in new (like copper twisted pair replaced with fiber). How the telecoms can get away with this is beyond my understanding. But they're not gonna get away with it in our service area. Within five years we want the area to be totally absent of unsightly and dangerous overhead lines and wires and poles. We're going to force them to either do it right, or remove their stuff and clean it up and recycle it because it's not needed or wanted anymore anyway - and it remains a lightning hazard with overhead lines connected to businesses and homes. They are going to take us to court over it because they think they have the "right" to abandon it and just stop paying the right-of-way leases. But it's not going to work that way.

Civilization has constructed a literal rat's nest of copper, aluminum and steel wires most of which is aging, unreliable and some of it abandoned. Somebody has to start somewhere with cleaning this mess up. In some European countries, especially the Netherlands and Germany, they have taken a proactive approach to burying power cables instead of running overhead. And their power services are much more reliable than in the US. So the telecom is going to have to deal with it because those overhead lines have reached end-of-life, much like the telecom's local wired services. But legacy is a hard thing to break.

Mary B

  • Administrator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3179
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2022, 02:10:44 PM »
Chris I have tried to get my town to put in its own small generator

Mary, unfortunately I don't know if your town can put in their own generator unless they have some sort of power cooperative, or are the power company for the town or city. Do you get your bill from Xcel, or from the city?

It also requires more than a small generator. The generating plant has to be able to handle starting inductive loads with either a staged soft-start switchgear, or the modern electronic engines can increase their fuel rate to many times normal rated power when they accept load. This puts tremendous strain on your plant to get refrigeration compressors, blower motors, well pump motors and the like all turning again after the power went out. The generators have to be capable of feeding your distribution line voltage (either 4160 or 7200) to bypass damaged substation transformers. I like the Cat 3516's I think better than the Cummins QSK60's. While the Cummins plants are proven backup for hospitals, high-rises, etc., the Cat plants have over 4 billion operating hours worldwide on prime duty over the last 40+ years and Caterpillar has a service network second to none. You can go to Amundsen-Scott South Pole Station and what do they have in the power plant keeping everyone alive down there? Cat 3516's and 3512's. How do they get the fuel to those generators in the most inhospitable off-grid place on earth? With overland transports from McMurdo pulled by Cat Challengers over 1,000 miles.


Anyway there is quite a bit of planning that goes into installing utility-level generators. Building for the power plant housing generators, switchgears, cooling system, fueling. The Caterpillar plants are a pleasure for your power plant operator to service and maintain because they never break. They last 100,000 hrs on prime duty and when they are needed they just run and can accept full rated load in 30 seconds.

Not a valid vimeo URL

Currently billed form Xcel but we could form a co-op... only 100 houses here plus the grain elevator who would really like constant power during harvest. I am familiar with that size cat generator, the casino ran on 2 of them! They claimed we could power 1,000 houses if the casino wasn't drawing power. 10 second start time on them!!!! If you were in the engine room an alarm went off and it was wise to head for the door because it was going to get really loud and windy in there! We ran a week off backups and had way to many small power drops(major pain for my department, we had to make sure every slot machine restarted properly... all 1800 of them...).

They actually did hook in one small town where a lot of tribal members lived, and on reservation housing was all on the backup generator for the hotel. I remember when that one ate a piston, Cat sent out a team and they took it all apart, moved the block onto a flatbed they spent 10 hours leveling and locking in place. Machined out the block, checked for cracks, put in the new larger pistons(old ones were like 55 gallon drums in size!), and reassembled it all over a 3 day span. Turns out it was an engineering defect that caused the piston to burn thru, the radiator fan was kicking on to late letting the block get to hot due to a bad from the supplier sensor that was reading 150 degrees low.

Mary B

  • Administrator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3179
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2022, 02:33:15 PM »
We have another bit of a problem with our new power project. It has nothing to do with keeping the power on, but it has to do with a telecom that has traditionally provided wired landline telephone service and internet to homes and businesses, and they have leased space on the utility poles to run their wires below the powerlines. When those old power poles are taken out and we go to trenched-in lines, the telecom cannot bury their wired services in the same trench behind the trencher with power wires. The underground power wires are not the problem with electrical interference, as those are coaxial type cables with a center conductor and grounded shield with an insulation layer over the shield. The bigger problem is having communications lines in the same trench in the event we have to service an underground break in a power cable at some point.

In this area, people consider wired communications services to be obsolete. It has been replaced by cellular and cell data. And some people, like us, have StarLink internet. So the telecom is fighting us tooth and nail because now if they want to continue offering wired services they have to find their own right-of-way lease along the county highway. And they have an under-water communications cable that runs from the mainland to the mansions on the big island. The residents of the big island don't use it anymore and have voted to have it discontinued. The Lake Assn, and Wisconsin DNR, is requiring its removal, which is quite expensive but is the telecom's cost.

In many areas, telecoms are notorious for just abandoning existing infrastructure to put in new (like copper twisted pair replaced with fiber). How the telecoms can get away with this is beyond my understanding. But they're not gonna get away with it in our service area. Within five years we want the area to be totally absent of unsightly and dangerous overhead lines and wires and poles. We're going to force them to either do it right, or remove their stuff and clean it up and recycle it because it's not needed or wanted anymore anyway - and it remains a lightning hazard with overhead lines connected to businesses and homes. They are going to take us to court over it because they think they have the "right" to abandon it and just stop paying the right-of-way leases. But it's not going to work that way.

Civilization has constructed a literal rat's nest of copper, aluminum and steel wires most of which is aging, unreliable and some of it abandoned. Somebody has to start somewhere with cleaning this mess up. In some European countries, especially the Netherlands and Germany, they have taken a proactive approach to burying power cables instead of running overhead. And their power services are much more reliable than in the US. So the telecom is going to have to deal with it because those overhead lines have reached end-of-life, much like the telecom's local wired services. But legacy is a hard thing to break.

My small rural town just went fiber... they literally did abandon all the copper, all of the boxes in the alleys are still there, many of the house are fed by lead sheathed cable so it IS an environmental hazard. Nothing was overhead, the telephone office downtown was already fiber going out of town for the last 15 years and they have had buried cables here for a long time due to ice, wind, lightning damage.

It sure is nice not having to disconnect internet now during thunderstorms. I can hop on my tablet and still surf the net or watch a movie. With DSL I unplugged the modem, way to big of a lighting strike risk coming in on their lines(even buried telephone lines are a huge avenue for a lightning strike. If it hits the ground over a cable the voltage on that cable rises a LOT!). When I first got on the internet I could tell if a thunderstorm was within 20 miles by the crackle on the phone line as the modem connected. That phone company got bought out and upgrades started right away. Now with Arvig out of Otter Tail county in MN, they cover half the state with phone/TV/internet/wirelss alarm monitoring etc Kind f interesting to see their history going form a small telephone company located in their house to what they are now https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/e/2PACX-1vSaTK1TnqK3o7KpsekG8ZzfI1HAsiJT-NlXHLGZQDfRhFRXsoowsoeL1uqOdgiPmuIRiTezrJu9_sxL/embed?start=true&loop=true&delayms=5000#slide=id.g7ccef7ecd0_1_4

ChrisOlson

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3642
  • Country: us
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2022, 03:07:25 PM »
Abandoning that old infrastructure seems to be a common theme with telecoms.

It is quite interesting that your telecom shares much of the same history timeline as the one here. But being this is more rural, wired services have become pretty much obsolete. Everybody has gone to cell. And people aren't buying computers anymore - they've gone to mobile devices instead. And I guess we're no different. We don't even have a TV in the house anymore. If we want to watch something, we watch it on our iPads, and those have built-in cellular.

We do have a Mac mini desktop computer that my wife used back in like Feb to do our taxes on. And I do use that for running digital modes on my ham radio (I got a new FlexRadio 6400 SDR for Christmas). But for just rag chew on the radio I even use the SmartSDR client on the iPad for that. And that's what most people seem to have gone to - smart phones and tablets. If a person still uses a laptop, that's like 20 year old technology now.

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4053
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2022, 09:01:15 PM »
Quote from: ChrisOlson
But being this is more rural, wired services have become pretty much obsolete. Everybody has gone to cell. And people aren't buying computers anymore - they've gone to mobile devices instead.

There is an exception WIFI
I run 5 machines and a single WIFI Router. All can transmit and receive in succession there is no penalty. and the connection/s are secure.   

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4053
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2022, 09:24:11 PM »
Something also comes to mind, my Grandpa always paid for a subscription to both Popular Mechanics and popular Science for years.

At all the time hardwiring is considered it was predicted that a single COAX line could support phonelines Cable TV and Internet at the same time. That time has come and gone and this is how I get my telecommunication system. But its one phone line internet unlimited and 2 cable box, Im getting ripped off.

I don't use any mobile devices but not being able to receive a text message causes problems for me.   

ChrisOlson

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3642
  • Country: us
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2022, 09:42:57 PM »
There is an exception WIFI
I run 5 machines and a single WIFI Router. All can transmit and receive in succession there is no penalty. and the connection/s are secure.

We have wifi in the house because we have StarLink. But frankly, I think it is a waste because we're not using it that much. We have the first generation round dish that we got on the "better than nothing" beta. We would give it to one of the neighbors who can use it, but if we move it from our place it stops working. They have it geo-locked with GPS to the original location and it can't be moved. The newer ones with the rectangular dish can be moved and re-registered at a new location.

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4053
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2022, 10:11:35 PM »
Ya im using a NETGEAR 16 my business provider they were like that's the only router that will work, which is BS

Quote from: ChrisOlson
We have the first generation round dish

I had a dish at one point but had to have DSL for 2way communication, which was hard wire.

Quote from: ChrisOlson
They have it geo-locked with GPS to the original location and it can't be moved. The newer ones with the rectangular dish can be moved and re-registered at a new location.

I just want to understand how text messages are secure and how there different.



 

ChrisOlson

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3642
  • Country: us
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2022, 10:41:50 PM »
I had a dish at one point but had to have DSL for 2way communication, which was hard wire.

I just want to understand how text messages are secure and how there different.

What we have is a little different. It's called StarLink from SpaceX.
https://www.starlink.com/

Text messages are not secure or encrypted. They are a method to send short messages, or even multimedia like pictures, from one cellular device to another just by knowing the phone number of the other device. They don't actually go over the internet, although they can. They are a form of cellular data. Many people use them these days instead of the traditional email. Like I can send a message to my wife's iPhone from my iPhone - I just open the Messages app and talk to the phone saying what I want to send, it converts my voice to text and sends it to her.

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4053
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2022, 11:01:15 PM »
Quote from: ChrisOlson
Many people use them these days instead of the traditional email. Like I can send a message to my wife's iPhone from my iPhone - I just open the Messages app and talk to the phone saying what I want to send, it converts my voice to text and sends it to her.

What im experiencing is code or encryption key so if i go on Match.com they send a onetime code as a text, without that the process things can not be verified. Just using that as example lots of other applications use the same form of digital key.

Ya if I could receive the onetime text code from a land line would be great, just don't think its possible.

ChrisOlson

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3642
  • Country: us
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2022, 11:23:34 PM »
No, a verification code like that cannot come to landline. It is a text message, which is a form of cellular data for cellular devices. The message can be generated someplace by an internet server and sent to your mobile device. That's how they verify that it's really you and not some imposter. They know that it's really you because if your mobile device gets stolen, like a modern iPhone is impossible to break into. The FBI and CIA, or some other three-letter government outfits sued Apple to try to get them to break the encryption on iPhones for crimes before, and even the government can't crack it. So if you get a verification code like that and you respond to it, the chances that it's really you is better than 99.9999999%.

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4053
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2022, 11:46:54 PM »
Ya for that reason I'm going to buy a $60 phone at walmart with 30bucks a month. Im thinking I will just use it for an as needed thing. But you brought up a good point if its used intermittently and lapses it will attract unwanted attention.

the whole thing with GPS and cell tower verification I don't feel comfortable about. So if I got the thing I would leave it home everyday. Ive seen some pretty advanced stuff.

But ya there are some well whatever things im not sure about.

Oh ya when you use a wifi dongle to USB use a single freq not dual channel. There working now to obsolete single wifi dongles. I have a single wifi key USB that I use as needed on each machine. Always use a VPN as I login.

I have had at least 3 machines operating at the same time with multiple dongles and things run just fine. Its the router that gives the bandwidth.       
« Last Edit: April 18, 2022, 11:56:59 PM by JW »

ChrisOlson

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3642
  • Country: us
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #64 on: April 19, 2022, 08:46:55 AM »
Ya for that reason I'm going to buy a $60 phone at walmart with 30bucks a month. Im thinking I will just use it for an as needed thing. But you brought up a good point if its used intermittently and lapses it will attract unwanted attention.

the whole thing with GPS and cell tower verification I don't feel comfortable about. So if I got the thing I would leave it home everyday. Ive seen some pretty advanced stuff.   

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. But if you're worried about cell phone tracking it's Google that does the tracking, so just get rid of everything Google out of the phone and don't get an Android device. Otherwise the phone will still provide its GPS location for emergency services calls, but you can turn that off too.

The reason people have gone to cellular is because a modern cellular device replaces your traditional wired internet and computer, wired phone and wired or satellite TV all in one device. It is why we don't even bother to have a TV set anymore. If we want to watch TV we watch it on the iPad and we have any number of different streaming TV services we can use, even out in the middle of the lake on the boat. It is why I question why we have the StarLink internet. It is redundant and we just don't use it except for our Mac mini desktop computer, and we don't actually need it for that either - we can simply create a local WiFi network with one of our iPads or iPhones and the Mac mini desktop is on the internet. I've told my wife we should discontinue the StarLink.

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4053
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #65 on: April 19, 2022, 09:24:09 AM »
Ya your probably right Im worried about nothing with the tracking.

The power went out a couple weeks ago. I always keep a good charged battery and used my 1100 watt inverter to power my entertainment center. The neighbors were like how is he doing that. Also I keep a good led light that makes alot of light if it happens a night atleast I can see.