Author Topic: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!  (Read 6526 times)

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doubledipsoon

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Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« on: September 23, 2018, 07:19:19 PM »
OK, yesterday was the test run of my Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger three-legged self-supporting tower. All systems are up and running-  However, I am picking up on some intermittent tower noise and that's why I'm here now. It seems to be associated with blade rpm, but I'm still unsure of its origin. Anyone out there familiar with free standing tower noise? Thanks, Joe (See next thread)
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 08:43:51 AM by doubledipsoon »

SparWeb

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2018, 08:38:28 PM »
First of all:  CONGRATULATIONS!

I take it you wouldn't be asking if the noise wasn't pretty loud.  My tower is guy-wired and it makes noise but probably not the same.
Here are some thoughts:
Measure RMS voltage to ground on each separate phase to see if they are balanced.
Put your hand on each leg, maybe even rest your head against it.  You can pick up a lot of info from the vibration instead of the noise.
If one leg is "louder" than the others, and it doesn't seem to matter which way the WT is turned, then check that tower leg for loose fasteners.

I'll wait for someone with a SS tower to chime in next.
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XeonPony

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2018, 11:32:16 AM »
Hello, please avoid Double posting in the future, I left this one as it has a reply to it all ready, If you wish the subject may be changed to reflect it has a question in it as well.
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

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jenkinswt

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2018, 02:10:35 PM »
I have the same tower with a Jake on it. If I put my hand on it I can feel a "slight" vibration but not enough that I'm worried about it. Mine has a cable that runs up one leg and I didn't quite mount it correctly at the top so it holds it too close to the leg, sometimes the cable will vibrate but I don't think yours has anything like that. Are all of your diagonal straps tight?  Sparweb might be onto something also about 1 phase causing the vibration.

Oh and I will be the second to say congratulations! This is very cool!

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2018, 04:57:27 PM »
Every free standing tower has a certain natural frequency which is higher as the tower is stiffer. Your tower has a rather wide base and so the first harmonic of the natural frequency can be rather high. The natural frequency can be measured easily if you connect a rope to the tower top. By softly pulling, the tower can be brought in resonance. So you simple count the number of variations in one minute and divide the result by 60 which gives you the natural frequency in Hz. Every rotor has some imbalance and the frequency of the imbalance is the same as the rotational speed of the rotor in revolutions per second. There will be a certain wind speed for which the rotational speed of the rotor in revolutions per second will be the same as the natural frequency of the tower and the tower will vibrate at this rotational speed. If this happens at a low wind speed of for instance 3 m/s it isn't a problem because normally the rotor will turn at a much higher rpm. But if it happens at a common wind speed of about 5 m/s you can get strong resonance which can also produce noise.

Fast running rotors for generation of electricity normally turn at a higher rotational speed than the natural frequency of the tower. Classical multi bladed slow running rotors for water pumping normally run a rotational speeds lower than the natural frequency, even at high wind speeds. That's one of the reasons why they normally have a tower with a wide base.

doubledipsoon

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2018, 05:45:41 PM »
Sparweb, actually the noise isn't that big of a deal- I'm a perfectionist, but the added noise actually gives the bird a little character! As far as "Measure RMS voltage to ground on each separate phase to see if they are balanced.", I have no idea whatsoever about what you're talking about! .....Jenkins, I doubt if you have a jake on my tower- my Wincharger tower is a mere 42 feet high- you probably have the 55-65 foot 3-legged tower, which were popular with the 300 lb+ Jakes. I did have a jake back in the 80's- it had a 4-legged tower, but I always loved those three legged skinnies. I was originally going to put a 150 lb. Sencenbaugh wind generator on this particular tower, but Mick Sagrillo said it would be way to heavy for it, so I did the Bergeyinstead. Oh, and thanks for your congratulation. I do feel like a kid in a toy store!.....Adriaan, thanks for the primer on frequencies, resonance, harmonics, and the like. But, the more I watch this baby on Day 3, the more I realize how fortunate I am- everything went perfect, from the crane to the control panel- the Bergey was new/used- got it for a mere $850. The tower got shipped to me from Minnesota, and had to fork out $1500 with shipping, but it's slender enough 5 feet down from the top to not hit my blades. OK, all, thanks for the replies, and it sounds like I'll be accepting the fact that my tower will sing out an occasional tune, and, like I said before, give it a little character! Joe

jenkinswt

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2018, 06:22:35 PM »
Mine is 54' but the same wincharger type tower, with the flat corners on the angle iron legs. I think my jake is 600ish pounds but didn't weigh it. I don't see too many of these towers around here but have spotted I think two that are not being used and keep thinking about stopping to see if they would sell, I figure it would make a cheap second tower. The bergey looks cool on your tower!

doubledipsoon

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2018, 01:40:03 PM »
Yeah, I first discovered these 3-legged towers at the Synergia Ranch in New Mexico circa '87- there were two Jakes on self-supporting towers. I bought the one on a 4-legged, but they wouldn't sell the other. I then discovered the smaller Wincharger 3-legged tower circa '2005 in Micheal Hackleman's 1975 book, "The Handbuilt Wind Generated Electricity Handbook", buy they pretty much remained a mystery. After I sold the Jake in '99 to Eric Schwartz, CEO of Home Power magazine, I figured I get a Sencenbaugh., a Jake look-a-like, but with a 3 to 1 gearbox, a very nice looking machine. I first saw one up in Santa Rosa where I went to college- it was right off 101 lighting a billboard that advertised for RG&E (Real Gas & Electric), out of the town of Guenneville, a hippie hotspot, that sold Dunlite Wind Generators. I found a Sencenbaugh from a guy in Vermont around 2010 had it restored, about the same time I found the Wincharger tower in Minnesota. After talking to Mick Sagrillo about my project, he warned me about putting the Sencenbaugh on the Wincharger tower. He had purchased the rights to the older original Bergey 1000 wind generator, but didn't have the time to restore one for me. Then I saw a used, new-in-the-box Bergey XL-1 off Craigslist for $850, and that was it!......I think we're on the same page as far as self-supporting towers go- they are definitely cooler looking than the guy wire mess that most consumers get stuck with. I'm an artist, so opting for a 3-legged tower was a no-brainer.....Hey, are you getting any vibration/noise from your Jake/Wincharger tower?

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2018, 03:06:54 PM »
I also like 3-legs towers. I have designed a 12 m high, 3-legs welded tower using pipes for the tower legs and only horizontal strips. The tower has hinges at the tower foot and can be erected by a winch and an auxiliary pole. I still have this tower and I made a photo when I was erecting it for the first time about 20 years ago. The photo is added as an attachment.

adobejoe

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2018, 11:09:51 PM »
My Bergey 10K excel was having a terrible vibration this spring. I found an unbalanced leg that was causing the tower to shudder and make horrible noise. There is a fusible disconnect at the base of the tower and I found the culprit: Cutter bee nest castings were getting into one of the knife blade contacts. See pics.

SparWeb

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2019, 12:39:39 AM »
.... As far as "Measure RMS voltage to ground on each separate phase to see if they are balanced.", I have no idea whatsoever about what you're talking about! .....

Hi DDS,
It's come to my attention that I didn't clarify this statement.

What I meant was that one of the 3 electrical phases could be out of balance with the other two.  You can measure this. With a multimeter and access to the 3-phase terminals, it's easy.  It's not necessarily the cause of your noise but it's easy to eliminate the possibility in 60 seconds.  At its simplest, just test the voltage from each phase to the neutral wire.  3 test points should give 3 identical results.  If you get different readings, then more investigation is deserved.

Fine print:
I have to say I do not know where the 3-phase wiring starts in your machine.  Many machines are different.  You will just have to tell me.
Another thing you have to tell me is what is done with the power?  DC to batteries?  AC loads?  Water heating??????
I will just guess, and also assume that you can open up a connector or a panel - maybe like the one in Adobe Joe's picture.
I will also just assume that the 3-phases are in Star connection.  This means that there's a center "neutral" wire.
But you could have delta wiring and that would make you test different things.  You will just have to tell me about system you have to be sure you get the right info.
When troubleshooting or testing any electrical system, you have to know something about the system.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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doubledipsoon

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2019, 01:27:01 PM »
sparweb, thanks for the reply- the Bergey charges 4 Trojan T-105's via Bergey's control panel. There's a 1500 watt inverter right off the batteries that delivers AC to my modest cabin- only lights, computer, and a small refrig= no resistance appliances........OK, I understand how unbalanced 3 phase voltages can cause "problems", but I'm more concerned whether you can "balance" the unbalamced phases via adjustments. Sounds to me that if there is an unbalanced situation, then it's unbalance windings, corrosion of the windings, or even PM flux variances. Bottom line is- I don't think I can balane them with an adjustment. Sounds like a lemon Bergey, or one that is not optimally manufactured......Tomorrow I will wait for the annoying sound and then switch off the breaker supplying battery power to the alternator, allowing the blades to freely spin, to see if the sound disappears. If the sound remains, then it's the blades making the noise. If the sound does not disappear, then I suspect that it is a rotor/PM problem, causing resonance and thus "the sound". It is a whirling whistling sound that changes pitch to a lower frequency, NOT depending on rpm......I suspect that this semi-annoying sound is normal for a Bergey XL-1  After all, Keith from Bergey said, "They all make noise" If so, I may dump it and go with a nice quiet Jake.....

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2019, 02:50:26 AM »
In windcharging applications with a Y connection in an alternator, the Y point typically isn't brought down.  (Why bother with a fourth wire when you don't need it?)  A delta connection doesn't even have a neutral.  In a three-phase alternator -> bridge rectifier -> battery setup the grounded side of the battery provides the ground reference.  If the mill is turning fast enough that some diodes are always conducting the effective neutral point will cycle near half the battery voltage, while if it's slow enough that they're not conducting it can wander around but is still between the phase voltages, which are clamped between the voltages of the two sides of the battery.  That's more than adequate for static protection of the wire insulation, by an order of magnitude or more.

I'd be inclined to check for phase balance by using phase-to-phase, rather than phase-to-neutral measurements.  While they aren't quite as easy to interpret, they don't depend on finding a good, alternator-winding-referenced, neutral.   The voltage of an under-loaded phase, or one that's disconnected downstream of where you measure, will be high, while an over-loaded one or one that is disconnected upstream of your measurement point will be low.  All you're interested in here is current balance, so if the currents aren't balanced the three phase-to-phase voltages won't be approximately equal.

While an unbalanced load will produce a lot of vibration, at twice the generated frequency, due to cyclic variations in the load's drag on the shaft, there are a couple other noise sources to consider.

If the frequency of the sound doesn't track the rotation rate of the blades, it's not an imbalance among the three phases.  Whistling notes sound more like vortex shedding or other air-blade interactions.  (You might be able to do something about that by making adjustments to the shape of the blades, if you want to change them.  But that way also leads to potential trouble.)

Now if the fundamental frequency tracks the rotation rate - at six times the alternator's output frequency - but the harmonic content (as speed goes up) is very high at the low speed where it starts, and drops with speed rise, you might be listening to rectification noise.  When your voltage gets just up to cut-in, the rectifier only conducts (and thus only loads the shaft) at the voltage peaks, so you get six short, sharp, pulses of drag per cycle.  As the mill speeds up the generated voltage rises.  So conduction is both progressively greater and occurs for a larger percentage of the cycle.  So at first the sound gets louder but the high frequencies fade out, then (as the conduction begins to be more than half-time) the fundamental note at six times the AC also dies down.

(Note that unbalance noise might also include some rectification noise, too.)

And then there's bearing noise and/or some other thing rubbing...

Harold in CR

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2019, 08:40:22 AM »

 After viewing xl-1 images on Google , it seems as those egg shaped blade balancers/deflectors are not shown on all XL-1 machines. If you have those,you will get the whistling sound in higher wind speeds.

I got away from installing those in '86, right as the 10 KW units were being produced.




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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2019, 11:26:30 AM »
OK.  Rectified to Battery charge.

Hey, given what you've written so far, you haven't started investigating the problem.  Too early to start thinking about replacing it.  A used Jacobs could have a similar problem, needing the same fix. 

Just a few well-placed measurements could rule-out or confirm all kinds of things in your Bergey.

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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doubledipsoon

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2019, 12:57:28 PM »
Thanks for all the replies- Ungrounded, great info on sources of "noises", and will advise......Last evening, as the winds were dying down, that annoying noise became very apparent- about 8-10 mph winds with the blade rpms around 120. At that point I shut off the circuit breaker at the control box to the wind generator, and the sound PERSISTED. Question: Does this indicate that the noise can still be of electical origins, and not the blades. Could it still be rectifier noise with the breaker off? I mean, the unit is still putting out power with the breaker off, right? And it seems improbable that the blades are causing such a annoying sound at such a low rpm.....By the way Harold, I don't have blade balancers on my XL-1. that was a feature on the BMC1000, the predecessor to the XL-1. And SparWeb, I won't be dumping this unit until Keith at Bergey listens to the video/audio I will be sending him tomorrow- maybe they can figure out the origin of the mystery noise. Hopefully I'll be posting it on Youtube soon for all of you to ponder.

SparWeb

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2019, 01:35:14 PM »
We won't know anything until you put the probes of a multimeter against the terminals of the unit.  Are you reluctant to do that?
If you're on the phone with support at Bergey, then please do all the tests and checks they recommend.
Collecting information (carefully of course) is always valuable in any trouble-shooting job.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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Mary B

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2019, 05:01:25 PM »
Your noise may be tower resonances...

doubledipsoon

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2019, 07:16:46 PM »
Mary, my older Wincharger tower had it's own "noise" issues, but theywere quickly resolved with rubber  pads inserted between all metal to metal tower contacts- it's real quiet now. It's a beauty........ This "noise" is emanating directly from the generator/blade area. I wish this annoying noise WAS the tower!...........OK, Webspar, I will do exactly what Bergey tells me to do. After all, it was they who changed the bearings last year after I first heard this "noise".  thinking it was a "bearing rub". However, since they didn't spin it BEFORE they changed the bearings,  like I requested-   (to VERIFY that it was in fact a bearing rub), there's alot more to this story than you'd think. They also didn't volunteer any info about WHAT ELSE  the noise might have been. See, now you know why I'm not real happy about taking it down, AGAIN, for the same damn reason. Opppps, did I say that?

Mary B

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2019, 04:01:21 PM »
Have to climbed the tower while the noise was present? Your weight on the tower would change the resonance... it may sound like the gen head but it might still be the tower!

doubledipsoon

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2019, 04:41:32 PM »
You're right- anything's possible!!! As soon as I send this audio/video to Bergey, the better- can't wait to see what they think it is.  (I tried sending it today, but the 20 second video is too big to send via email- dropbox, where are you?) Could it be another reason to take it down and ship it back, like I already did last year???? (Isn't this fun?) By the way, Mary, do you have a self-supporting tower under yours? What kind of bird do you fly?

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2019, 01:55:16 AM »
Last evening, as the winds were dying down, that annoying noise became very apparent- about 8-10 mph winds with the blade rpms around 120. At that point I shut off the circuit breaker at the control box to the wind generator, and the sound PERSISTED. Question: Does this indicate that the noise can still be of electical origins, and not the blades.

That depends on where in the circuit that circuit breaker is.

If it's between the three big wires coming down from the generator and the control box - where the loads and rectifiers live, or "upstream" of them - there would be no current in the wires, and thus no current in the coils (with the following exceptions), thus no varying magnetic field from it to put a varying torque on the shaft and vibrate the tower.

Exception being if one of the coils is shorted or if there's a short between two of the wires.   You can detect that by checking for equal voltages between each pair of the three down lines.

Are there more wires up the tower besides the three heavy ones?

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2019, 02:19:35 AM »
In case you don't have it, the manual is on line.  Here's a link:

http://bergey.com/wp-content/uploads/excel-1-48-v-owners-manual-v1-1.pdf

Mary B

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2019, 04:11:36 PM »
You're right- anything's possible!!! As soon as I send this audio/video to Bergey, the better- can't wait to see what they think it is.  (I tried sending it today, but the 20 second video is too big to send via email- dropbox, where are you?) Could it be another reason to take it down and ship it back, like I already did last year???? (Isn't this fun?) By the way, Mary, do you have a self-supporting tower under yours? What kind of bird do you fly?

No wind gens up, I am to crippled to be climbing for yearly maintenance! BUT I have ham radio antennas up and am well aware of tower resonance LOL One tower that is house bracketed moans when the wind hits 25mph... soon as it goes above 28mph it quits. It is the the way the antenna booms let air flow through them, and they have to be open or water collects. This is my free standing tower, this one has its own rackets and noises...


SparWeb

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2019, 09:03:17 PM »
DDS,

I've been looking for some info from Bergey to help you troubleshoot this.   http://www.bergey.com/technical/
What I find is that the alternator AC is rectified to DC in the nacelle of the turbine, and only DC output comes down the tower.
So it turns out to be difficult to measure anything about the AC with the tower still up.
When you shut down the DC, it probably wasn't just running unloaded, it was probably in braking so even if it was still turning it probably wasn't energetic enough to shake anything.

I won't casually suggest you climb the tower, unless you are very comfortable and well equipped to do such a thing.
And to do tests, you certainly don't want to be up there while it's running.
I think I could come up with a way to test it, but it would be ad-hoc at best.  Meh, I'm not sure I'm comfortable doing that, either.

So I can't think of good ways to do electrical tests that would give you useful information.  I'll keep thinking about it.

As for mechanical vibration, there's more you can do, but as Mary says, it also involves a lot of tower-climbing.

Play safe, kids!
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2019, 03:30:29 AM »
DDS,

I've been looking for some info from Bergey to help you troubleshoot this.   http://www.bergey.com/technical/
What I find is that the alternator AC is rectified to DC in the nacelle of the turbine, and only DC output comes down the tower.
So it turns out to be difficult to measure anything about the AC with the tower still up

SparWeb:  If that manual is for the same machine, it's sending unrectified 3-phase wild AC down the cable and rectifying it down below.  That would correspond to the three heavy wires coming down to a three-circuit breaker/cut-off switch.  DC would only have two wires down the pole and switched.

In any case, it's easy to check:  Use a cheap multimeter with AC scales.  (Test it on a battery using an AC scale to make sure it doesn't read DC on AC scales.)

Doubledipsoon: I'm curious why we haven't seen any results from actually measuring the voltages yet.  Can't you get cheap multimeters out there?  This test doesn't require anything special or high-precision.

Mary B

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2019, 05:33:30 PM »
Tower vibration can be stopped by something as simple as winding some rope on tower rungs to damp it. I run a piece of paracord down the center of long antenna booms for the same reason. Damps noises and vibration.

doubledipsoon

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2019, 08:56:44 PM »
Lots has happened- Keith from Bergey listened to the audio video of the "noise" and thinks it is the blades producing the sound. Marcus, a free lance wind turbine servicer, got his audio video of the noisy Bergey, and he says "that's normal blade noise". Hard to believe at 3 am in the quiet of the night when you can hear it a mile away- I  believe him because he's seen a few. He says that unbalanced phases make a "bassier" sound, for all those who thought I should pull out my voltmeter.....Ungrounded, my wind generator circuit breaker is in the Bergey XL-1 control panel, but couldn't tell you specifically "where". But I do know one thing for sure- there's only two #6AWG wired coming down the tower into the control room.  I know- I put them there. Am I missing something??? .....Spar Web, Thanks for your concern for my safety- I've climbed that tower mucho with double safety straps and the usual clip ons. But it would be a hassle being 50 feet hign, trying to take the nacelle off to get to all the electrical goodies. I believe you have to remove the tail section to get off the overly stiff and awkward fiberglass nacelle. So yeah, sounds like it's coming down again- where you should work on it anyway. (I use a crane at $300 a bop to take it down or put it up. I should have a gin pole, but I ASSUMED that "I would have no problems with it once it was up" (What a stupid thing to assume). ......OK, now comes the fun part. Since the blades are making the normal "noise", why not put a set of wooden blades on it? The tip speed ratio (TSR) of a Bergey XL-1 blade is 5.0......the speed tip ratio of a Jake is 5.  What a coincidence. Hey, that may quiet it down. (oh, that's with 4 foot blades, not 6 foot) (I know- it sounds nuts, but who knows?)

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Bergey XL-1 on an old Wincharger Tower- now running!
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2019, 02:30:10 AM »
.Ungrounded, my wind generator circuit breaker is in the Bergey XL-1 control panel, but couldn't tell you specifically "where". But I do know one thing for sure- there's only two #6AWG wired coming down the tower into the control room.  I know- I put them there. Am I missing something???

No, I was missing something.

I had your machine confused with adobejoe's, with the picture of the ground-level breaker in reply number 9, and the manual I linked that showed a three-phase permanent magnet alternator and three wires down the tower to a breaker in a box.