Author Topic: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally  (Read 5151 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

bigrockcandymountain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Country: ca
12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« on: November 22, 2018, 03:02:02 PM »
I am finally putting it up.  The generator is a converted 5hp induction motor

The tower is 7" pipe with a 1/4 wall.

Everything is extremely heavy.  It got too windy this afternoon or it would be running.

electrondady1

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3120
  • Country: ca
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2018, 05:57:45 PM »
looks like a good spot . even the dog was thinking it was too windy

bigrockcandymountain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Country: ca
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2018, 06:45:05 PM »
Well it's up and now it is calm.  The raising went fine anyway. 
[ Specified attachment is not available ]
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 09:12:50 PM by SparWeb »

bigrockcandymountain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Country: ca
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2018, 10:06:57 PM »
It works!!  The wind came up after dark and it is making 300w steady and up to 600w.  The wind isn't strong, just a normal breeze so I am very satisfied. 

Thanks to everyone on fieldlines.  This would not have even come close to happening without the knowledge here.

mbouwer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1023
  • Country: nl
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2018, 09:01:18 AM »
Well done and what a beautiful landscape to set up a turbine like this.

bigrockcandymountain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Country: ca
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2018, 01:55:41 PM »
3 kwh last night.  Peak was 1000w

This is way too fun. 

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2018, 09:09:13 PM »
Awesome!
I'd love to see some detailed pictures (when you can tear your eyes away from the meter, that is!)
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2018, 09:13:51 PM »
I also turned your picture right-side up for you.  Looks like a great site for wind!
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

bigrockcandymountain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Country: ca
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2018, 05:52:10 AM »
Thanks sparweb for turning that picture and for all the motor conversion help along the way. 

Here is a picture of the motor mounted on chassis with the wheel hub mounted.  Hub is a browning taper lock in an old sprocket with some scrap 6" x 1/4 flat welded on for ears.  It has a front crush plate of the same material. 

The tail is hinged straight with spring for furling.  Mostly i wanted it to be adjustable is why i did it this way. 

Yaw bearing is 4" id 4.5" od pipe about 3' long.  A piece of 4" od perforating gun fits perfectly inside and forms the tower stub.  It has a 51115 thrust bearing on top with a grease fitting.


bigrockcandymountain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Country: ca
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2018, 05:59:15 AM »
This is the stub tower being inserted into the main tower pipe.  It took a lot of heat and beating.  Sometimes I am amazed at how crudely i build things. 

phil b

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
  • Country: us
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2018, 03:53:24 PM »
That's beautiful!
And that looks like something I'd build, that is, using what's on hand. Function is clearly more important than crude appearance. Build them like tanks so they survive.
Can you give me more information about the generator itself?
Phil

bigrockcandymountain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Country: ca
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2018, 04:36:44 PM »
https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,149117.0.html

Hopefully that link works.  It is the thread with details when i was building the generator. 

If you have questions after reading it let me know.  It doesn't have all the details. 

And yes it was definitely built with materials on hand.  The only things I paid money for were the motor and magnets and some odd hardware.  And it looks surprisingly good from the ground. 

7kwh so far and no good wind yet.

kitestrings

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1376
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2018, 06:32:26 PM »
Congrat's brcm,

It looks great, and that's no small piece of hardware.  I'm sure it posed some challenges.  Now the fun part begins.  Enjoy.

~ks

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2018, 07:28:13 PM »
Did you get any pictures of the generator going together? 
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

bigrockcandymountain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Country: ca
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2018, 06:59:56 AM »
Sparweb sorry no pictures of the generator going together.  It seems i was so focused on not scratching it and not cutting my fingers off that i forgot to take pictures. 

It turned out really great with the magnets.  It was 99% covered and only 1/4" thick ones and 1/2" wide so a very curved surface. 

I believe i machined the 1/4" off the rotor and an extra .025" off so the air gap should only be .025 more than as an induction motor. 

Now some questions.  I have it wired direct to a 48v battery bank.  It works good so far.  How many amps can i push without worrying about it?  It is wired 2Y and rated at about 16 amps i think.  16 x 1.73 is 28 amps roughly.  Is that it or can i go a bit higher?

Second question...I have a classic 200 I bought for it.  I didn't really plan in it but it was a really good deal.  I am not sure about building a clipper etc.  Any advice would be great. 

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2018, 02:30:50 AM »
Can you tell me more about the battery bank itself:  Capacity? Chemistry?

There's an old rule of thumb for lead-acid batteries to charge at C/20.  20*16A => 320 Amp-hours
But it's more complicated than that.  Once LA batteries are full, continuing to drive high current through them just boils off the electrolyte. 
I killed a pair of Trojan's hooking my first turbine up directly that way.
You should use a charge controller that regulates the current and diverts the rest to resistors or a water heater or something.
Like that Midnite Classic you have.
It's a great piece of hardware and it will do everything you need except change the channels on your TV.


You could see higher peaks than 28A.  My conversion started with a 3HP motor, and I usually run it in parallel-Y like you do. 
I see peaks above 30 Amps when it's really windy, and the gusts get ahead of the furling.  If yours was a 5HP, then you can expect more.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

bigrockcandymountain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Country: ca
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2018, 06:59:17 AM »
Sorry spar I should have worded that different. 

How many amps can the generator windings handle?  I am wondering where to set the furling to protect the generator. It seems like more than nameplate if your 3hp peaks over 30a.

My battery bank is 428ah flooded.  I have my classic 150 with solar hooked up and a diversion load controlled by it.  So when the classic sees absorb voltage it dumps power to maintain that voltage even though it is not going through the controller itself.  The divrrsion load is 250 gal water tank in the basement with a 2000w element off a ssr controlled by the classic that preheats domestic water and radiates heat into the basement.


SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2018, 10:20:12 PM »
Quote
How many amps can the generator windings handle?

Did you happen to read off the motor's dataplate the locked-rotor amps?  This is a good indication of the maximum current a motor-conversion can pump out without damage.
If it wasn't printed on the plate, you can estimate the LRA based on the details of the motor design (frame # and insulation class).  It can be several times the rated current.  I have some Baldor tech data if you want to work it out.

FYI, I drove this motor conversion using a lathe, way back when I built it, doing performance tests.  Aside from the power measurements, I also figured out that driving the thing at 30 amps for several minutes made it warm but not hot.  So I don't worry much about the heat in the generator, since any time it's putting out >30A, it's also being blasted by a gale, which should provide plenty of cooling.

These motor conversions are much more robust than the potted-core axials of the Hugh Piggott/Dan Bartmann variety.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

bigrockcandymountain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Country: ca
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2018, 11:22:46 AM »
I don't think it stated locked rotor amps but i will look when it is down.  The bit of reading i did suggested it might be around 100 amps for a 5hp class h motor

It made power all night.  Winds were 30 gusting 50kph nearby so we probably saw some of that.  It was putting out 1300w average probably and one peak i saw was 2400w 45a That was only for a second though.  The furling starts about 1500w so i think it is pretty safe for now.

The control works perfectly the way it is but i will likely tighten the spring a bit and delay furling once i get the classic 200 hooked up.  I plan on just letting it mppt full power on the turbine and the other classic controler can dump excess through the dump load.  I am waiting on breakers to install that though. 

A question for sparweb.  How long has your baldor 3hp been up and do you shut it down in high winds or just let the furling work? What problems have you had?

I am just trying to get an idea what to expect. 

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2018, 09:50:11 PM »
The Baldor was a 3 HP, 3-phase, 4-pole, motor.  It also was wired for dual-voltages and Star/Delta, so it was really perfect.  I converted it with an interesting cluster of alternating magnet sizes to fit as many on as possible, minimize cogging, and keep the clearance down.  Link: http://www.sparweb.ca/3_Gen_MoCo/Baldy.html



The Baldor was converted in winter of 2010, and went up in August of the same year.  I was not happy with the tail hinge, or the noise carrying through the tower, so I built a new tower mount in 2012.  It runs very quietly now.  While I was at it, I also made the tower 10 feet taller in 2012, and gave it a tilt lift mechanism with more mechanical advantage.

I replaced the bearings when I had it down in 2012 and in 2015.  I guess it's due for another set, but no complaints have been heard in a long time.  I remember being a bit fussy over the choice of bearings in 2015 since the previous set had only lasted 3 years.  I won't know if that was worthwhile until I take it apart next year when I take it down for maintenance.  But I'll probably replace both bearings, good or bad, just so that they don't force a replacement at some inconvenient time.

The wooden blades are really worn out, and I will have to make a new set next summer.  They went through a horrible hail-storm and have been noisy ever since (but not bad enough to replace them yet).  The current blades are 8-feet diameter, but now that I have a data-logger, I can tell that it's really not running at full potential.  My next set of blades will be 10-feet diameter, but have the same pitch.  I'd like to make a new hub at the same time, too.

I often shut it down in high winds, but I know I don't need to.  I've watched it using a datalogger in some severe storms and learned a lot about the behaviour. There's a self-induction reaction in motor conversions that limits the power they will put out, and this works to my advantage and may help you out too.  The brief peaks can be pretty high, but during those peaks the efficiency drops so much that the blades slow down immediately.  The tail furls at the same time, so either mechanism would do, but both happen at the same time.  So again, really robust combination that I can trust to run a long time.

For me, shut-down in storms has more to do with not eroding the surfaces of the blades any more than necessary, than any concern about the generator.  If you watch yours run and if you have any way to estimate the RPM's, you may be able to see the same thing happening.  If not, you can always judge by noise and vibration etc. and after a few years watching it, you may decide the same.

If the tower is easy to tilt down, then checks that everything stays tight of a fairly regular basis, and trial adjustments to the furling, are a good way to get it into commission and make sure everything is set up right.

I once tied a ribbon to the tail to see how "true" it ran to the wind.  The ribbon didn't last long but it certainly was informative to compare the ribbon's path to the tail's as it furled.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

Adriaan Kragten

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1156
  • Country: nl
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2018, 10:39:15 AM »
PM-generators made from asynchronous motors normally have a closed back bearing cover because, as they run at low rotational speeds, a fan isn't effective. So the back bearing is well protected if the back bearing cover is closed. The front bearing may give problems after a certain time depending on how well it is protected. The best protection for a standard (European) bearing cover is to use a rubber sealed bearing, to use an oil seal with dust lip in the front bearing cover and to fill the room in between the oil seal and the bearing with grease. The oil seal lives longest if the shaft is made of stainless steel but if you use the standard motor shaft, this shaft is of shaft steel which can rust and so damage the seal. But the grease may prevent rust for some years. My normal 4-pole, PM-generators have a stainless steel shaft and for those shafts, the front bearing has a lifetime of about ten years. I have never had a worn back bearing.

bigrockcandymountain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Country: ca
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2018, 05:25:25 PM »
This motor is a little different in that the shaft sticks out the back so the back bearing is exposed too.  I used open bearings not rubber sealed.  I will grease them once a year.  They have drain plugs that can be removed so you can force all the old grease out.  I plan on doing that.  If they don't last, i will try rubber sealed next time.


bigrockcandymountain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Country: ca
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2018, 03:01:36 PM »
Well this turbine has been up about 3 weeks.  I am happy so far but coming up with an improvement plan.  It has made 130 kwh so far so not bad production.

The tsr is quite high and i knew that when i built it.  I didn't quite picture how terrifying it would be.  The reason i made it this way was because the generator doesn't cut in until 160 rpm in 2Y

I can use 1Y now with a classic controller and cut in at 80 rpm so that will be much quieter etc.  As it is now, it makes helicopter noises in stiff winds.  I don't  really like that. 

The next blades will be about 13' diameter and tsr 5 or so.  Maybe i will just add shims to twist the existing blades.

The wind is gusting 70 km/h with gusts to 90 right now.  It is fully furled and making about 1500w average but with the occasional spike to 3000w.  All is well so far.  If the wind ever quits, i will lower it and lower the furling a bit.  It seems ok but i don't need this much power. 

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2018, 11:18:51 PM »
Cool.  Getting a lot of power.  Running at a high TSR helps - even if it is too fast for comfort.
Lowering the furling will help, but it may still overshoot.

Making blades 13' will get you 27% more power than 12' blades.  Are you sure you need to to do that?  It's hard to guess, but the combination of longer blades and connecting in 1Y means that there's more driving torque but less resisting torque when you need it to shut down and stop turning.  My first conversion of a GE 3HP motor had that problem, with only 8-foot blades.  Shorting the wires would keep it from starting, but wouldn't always stop it if it was already turning.

Maybe getting the Classic dialed in will do everything you need with the 12' blades you already have.  I'm an optimist.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

bigrockcandymountain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Country: ca
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2018, 07:35:01 AM »
I guess i was too optomistic.  It turns out the blades hit the tower and sustained a bit of damage. 

Next blades will happen fairly soon it looks like.  They will be fairly similar to the old ones, just slightly lower tsr.  Hopefully they will start up.better and still cut in for a 2Y connection. 

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2018, 08:46:10 PM »
Oops!
Well it's true that running too fast makes for high thrust, and thrust bends them toward the tower.
Did you want to give the generator a nose-up tilt?
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

bigrockcandymountain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Country: ca
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2018, 12:13:58 PM »
Yes i will definitely shim the front of the generator up about 3/8 "  it shouldn't change anything else I don't think. 


SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2018, 08:44:19 PM »
Not likely.  The flow through the blades is still pretty much the same, and it's not like the wind flows perfectly horizontally, either.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

Adriaan Kragten

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1156
  • Country: nl
Re: 12' Induction Motor Conversion Finally
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2019, 03:40:09 AM »
If have also got blades which have hit the tower for my VIRYA-4.2 rotor. I made calculations before and the bending of the blades should not be that much that it could happen but practice is different. Calculations are made for stationary conditions but during heavy wind gusts, the dynamic movement of the blade tip can be much larger than for stationary conditions. So for a blade of a certain stiffness, the distance in between the blade tip and the tower has to be increased a lot. This can be realized by introducing a tilt angle of at least 5° in between the rotor shaft and the horizon.

Another way is to make the blades stiffer and this is automatically obtained if the design tip speed ratio is reduced as this results in larger blade chords and so in thicker and much stiffer blades if the same airfoil is used. But reducing the design tip speed ratio may result in a bad matching or in increase of the starting torque coefficient that much that the generator can no longer be used as a brake to stop the rotor. The blade can also be made stiffer for the same blade geometry if stiffer blade material, like carbon fiber, is used.