Orientation of sphere magnet inside sphere magnet

[magnO]

And, just like when Darwin mentioned that humans stem from apes and people got upset, people today get upset if you mention that the Earth radius has increased, because they cannot fit it in their world view. So, I preferred to abstract the question and just get consensus answer from that, but only to avoid upsetting people, myself I am certain the radius has increased, it is as easy to see as that the Earth is a globe which you see from for example opposite pole stars at north and south celestial pole..

[JW]

The problem is that you make so many posts we have to figure out how to manage them, so that others posts can be seen. Were going to have to ask Flavio on the best way to accomplish this. For now im going to increase the post count so that others posts are not covered up.  AKA you make alot of posts, but we have to find the best of both worlds, so you can post as much as you would like and others posts can be seen aswell.

[magnO]

No that is not a problem, the problem has been that a simple question could not be answered. I have made one single post, then, I have replied to a few replies, and answers, and there have been contradictory answers. So, if you count my "many posts" you can count equally many posts from others that they reply to, of course. Otherwise it would just be spam, usually it is not in self-interest of people to spam unless doing actual attacks that in some ways are financially or socially beneficial, like taking down a country or something like that.

[magnO]

Believe if if you want but it is not in my self-interest to spam this forum I had a question, basically Googled "electromagnetism forum", and asked it, or, close to that. Of course, since it was not a Q&A forum, it may have been the wrong place for that, I just read "fieldlines.com" and went with that. I am still interested tough in exactly what poles look like on inside diameter of hollow diametrically magnetized sphere.

[MagnetJuice]

JW, we need to have this visible to all, users and guests also.

See what you can do with Flavio.

There was a swarm of people looking for this post. It has generated a lot of interest and people want to see where it will lead.

Thank you for your understanding.

Ed

[CraigM]

Very enjoyable topic, it had me thinking for quite some time. The illustration threw me for awhile because it doesn't show a wall thickness for the hollow sphere. Once I determine there has to be a wall (or earths crust) I could then see there would be an opposite pole on the ID of the sphere. Given this determination option 1 on the left is the likely choice.

[JW]

There is a redirection link that will prompt a user to login on the open the link

We can change things at anytime lets leave as it is for now.

I really want to talk this over with Flavio as it is now we have 2 sections im thinking this needs to be in a 3rd section

Give me your technical opinions

[MagnetJuice]

JW, is there a way that you can move it back to the newbies section where it was?

Or maybe make this new section visible to all. Can you do that?

If Flavio is in Italy, it is 3:30 AM there.

[JW]

User diary's are on the open forum. The problem I have is that this original post was done in the Newbies section. As of now there are two options. So if a post is actually started in the diary's section it will be visible to all users.
 

[MagnetJuice]

But this is in a NEW section in Miscellaneous called Diary's. NOT in Users Diaries. And is not visible unless you login.

By the way, once this problem is fixed, you can delete this conversation.

[JW]

Whats going on are you upset, im just trying to figure things out I can move it anywhere

[MagnetJuice]

I'm not upset, just trying to be helpful because you asked for my technical opinion.

Don't worry, is not a big deal, I am confident that you are capable of resolving this in a positive way.

Ed

[JW]

You have to consider some things I have almost 3000 posts I been here over 10 years (if thats possible) there is a majority of users with thousands of posts. There voice is not being heard.

We need to give them a voice aswell...

Look everything is working, and I thinks its ok if a user has to log on to see this new section .

To do this right someone needs to start a poll on the open side of the forum regarding this issue. Ive not made a poll before so its has to be one of you guys.

Look guys I was in the hospital today they did a CT scan I had a seizure. I was taken there by ambulance. I had a problem with one of my medications. I bounced back pretty well, and still have to go to work tomorrow. Im stable now but I have to get some rest. You guys are going have to cut me a break. Im going to bed now    

[Bruce S]

Rest well JW we'll guard the gates for ya.

[Mary B]

Take a break JW and don't sweat it! It wil work itself out. When I login I always click show unread posts so I don't miss anything!

[magnO]

I understand how it works now. This is how magnetic fields look like --->



The "magnetic pole model" was common in 19th century and identical to model for electric field. Then, the status quo became that magnetic field lines always form closed loops. Closure is common bias, that everything should be coerced to fit inside closed system.

"now everyone knows magnetic field lines travel in closed loops, space is vacuum, light is particles, and everything was created in the big bang"

Thanks for feedback. Best regards.

[JW]

Thanks guys. Bruce how many years have we been here? I think you have 4722 posts and I have like 2860. Been along time but not sure how many years have gone by for us.

I worked half day today and will do the same tomorrow, im doing really well...

Sunday I will probably sleep till 6pm then back to bed at 11 pm

Everybody has been around to see how im doing. Its been nice    

[JW]

Opp

for me its been since 2003-06-27

[joestue]

magnetic flux lines are just representations of the direction and strength of the field, they are closed loops because there isn't such a thing as a magnetic monoplole.

for what its worth if a spherical magnet of permiability 1.05 were initially magnetized vertically, the magnetic field wouldn't look anything like the photo in post #82

anyhow, as i said before a magnet can be represented by a nearly infinite number of individual magnets (each domain for example).

and a better way of visualizing it (especially for a permeability of 1) is to imagine every domain as its own donut coil of wire carrying a current.

so in the case of a spherical magnet with a cavity in the middle, yes magnetic flux is going to return to its source through the middle in the opposite direction as the exterior field, and the exterior field will be weaker, in accordance with the volume of magnet removed from the middle/center of the magnet. if it wasn't weaker, every single magnet manufactured since 1850 would be hollow.. you would effectively be getting something (energy stored in the magnetic field) for nothing.

this simulation is for an infinitely long cross section, not a cross section of a 3d sphere.

https://imgur.com/VBlWIYJ
https://imgur.com/sTfgZmH

this is a simulation of a magnet with a permiability of 20, with hollow air space
https://imgur.com/8YknkvN
the point of zero flux has moved inside the magnet and the corners have a flux density of 3.4

[magnO]

I have now come up with a model that fits with the reason I asked the question, and that integrates with every single technical opinion given in this thread.

If example 1 is correct, because the surface on the inside diameter has a reverse polarity to the surface on the outside diameter, and an electric coil placed inside a non-magentised sphere induces a magnetic field with the same polarity on the outside (that model was the reason I asked the question), then the two objects will attract at the poles, the interior surface of the pole of the shell attracts to the pole of the coil, locking the objects to the rotational axis. The objects will at the same time repel at the equator, if I am correct (the field lines will run in opposite directions perpendicular to the equator. ) It would be good to have that last part validated or falsified, the rest has already been discussed I think in this thread, as this particular model conforms to example 1 which most opinions converged on.

So, the model actually seems to fit even tough the initial assumption was, it appears based on this thread, wrong.

[joestue]

https://imgur.com/hcEG61t

magnet inside opposite direction.

[magnO]

https://imgur.com/hcEG61t

magnet inside opposite direction.

The model I am thinking about (the reason I asked about orientation of concentric ring magnets) conforms to reverse poles on inside of hollow sphere magnets. Is that image showing reverse poles on inside of magnet, or something else?

[magnO]

Hollow spherical magnet showing reverse poles on inside diameter, and magnet inside attracted to poles on inside surface of shell.



As that has been answered (I am very grateful for input from everyone who contributed), if anyone would like to contribute to the broader idea I work on, would the magnets repel at the equator? In schematics, the magnetic field lines flow in opposite directions in that region.

[magnO]

The complete model,


Assumptions made, reverse poles on inside diameter of shell (seems to be consensus in this thread), electromagnetic induction with polarity in same direction (the shell treated like an extension of the inner magnet/coil), attraction at poles (locked to rotation axis), and repulsion at equator where field lines move in opposite directions.

Would be good to have last two assumptions (the induced polarity and repulsion at equator) validated or falsified.

[electrondady1]

i just hope your prepared if a portal opens.

[magnO]

i just hope your prepared if a portal opens.

Appeal to ridicule is a fallacy. I am transparent, polite, and so on. Moderation always tends to in-group bias unless perfectly neutral arbitrator, and so slander becomes accepted one way, in this case directed towards me but with no possibility to respond in same manner.

The theory is generic, applies to any hollow magnet with magnet inside, and, I would appreciate having the assumptions, the induced polarity and repulsion at equator, validated or falsified.

[magnO]

In other words, scientific method is based on reproducibility. I am merely asking, a bit off topic as the original question has already been answered, whether concentric ball magnets oriented like in original question would also repel at equator. Why I assume they might, the magnetic field lines in simple schematics I have drawn here, based on overall feedback from original question, they move in opposite direction at equator.



I am interested in what the scientific consensus is. It is not my intent to be rude, or spam, and, the question is generic.

[magnO]

I could provide a few crumbs to why I am interested, but, as I mentioned I prefer to ask just with abstraction since people are prone to bias. Appeal to ridicule, or, dominance overall, primate instincts.

This here is polar "hot spots", data captured by CHANDRA, Cassini, and Keck Observatory. They are proof of Birkeland currents from our sun to the planets that enter at the poles, a very old scientific theory.



Of course, many are sceptical besides that proof. I am interested in the Birkeland current model, observations such as that Tunguska event occurred, to the day, at syzygy of the sun, Mercury, Venus, the moon and Earth. Interested specifically in natural science perspective, reproducibility, etc.

Overall, not looking to storytell about myself in this thread, people have better things to do I opened it specifically to ask a simple question, and having received very good answers, I also asked a follow up question for anyone who feels inclined to answer that as well.

[Mary B]

It was humor...

i just hope your prepared if a portal opens.

Appeal to ridicule is a fallacy. I am transparent, polite, and so on. Moderation always tends to in-group bias unless perfectly neutral arbitrator, and so slander becomes accepted one way, in this case directed towards me but with no possibility to respond in same manner.

The theory is generic, applies to any hollow magnet with magnet inside, and, I would appreciate having the assumptions, the induced polarity and repulsion at equator, validated or falsified.

[magnO]

It was humor...

No, it was a fallacy, appeal to ridicule. Ridicule is two-sided, it is humorous for one side and not for the other. Always, per definition. Recall I mentioned in-group bias.

I am not looking to insult anyone, or spam, I am merely asking a simple follow up question, well defined, and I am open to answers that explain what the scientific consensus is. That is, as I said, off topic in some ways as the original question has already been answered, I am following my self-interest tough and since I still have questions I asked.

[joestue]

It was humor...

why does this forum keep attracting strange people.

earth is hollow and expanding? yup, got to make room for where people go after they die..

[magnO]

why does this forum keep attracting strange people.

That is another fallacy, ad hominem. The overall question is generic and the answer would apply to concentric ball magnets, in general. As for increase in Earth radius, the age of the oceanic crust was mapped in 1950s and 1960s, radial expansion is as simple to see - the data is conclusive - as that Earth is a globe. This here is a good introduction. People tough tend to reject models despite evidence, because the human condition is biased.

Overall, question asked is simple and stands on its own. As for your opinions on other things, they are welcome, you carry your own character and may do as you want with it.

The follow-up to the question that was the reason I opened this thread: would concentric ball magnets oriented like in original question, that attract at poles, also repel at equator? Why I assume they might, the magnetic field lines in simple schematics I have drawn here, based on overall feedback from original question, they move in opposite direction at equator (see large red circle. )

[magnO]

https://imgur.com/hcEG61t

magnet inside opposite direction.

If I interpret that right it is showing example 2 in the original question? Since it shows neutral points between poles, it is repelling. If I am wrong so far, feel free to say.

If I interpret right that contradicts all answers so far, which is good as I am interested in what the scientific consensus is, as in what is true. I am assuming the inside surface of poles on the outer magnet are still reverse, that would mean the magnets choose this configuration because the attractive force is at the sides, and it is stronger than the attractive force would have been at the poles? Or, am I misinterpreting it completely?

This here is a visual interpretation,


Also anyone else reading this, feel free to validate or falsify what I just said, my self-interest is just to know exactly how concentric ball magnets would behave, the reason this thread has had lots of posts is because there have been differing opinions as in an absence of consensus.