Author Topic: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !  (Read 63822 times)

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topspeed

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #264 on: December 08, 2022, 05:27:36 AM »
More clamps and a new vice....and belt for the saw.

These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

MattM

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #265 on: December 08, 2022, 07:15:15 AM »
Can you ever have too many clamps?

topspeed

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #266 on: December 13, 2022, 12:18:21 AM »
I have been loosing so many plastic ones that I needed more reliable ones.

G-clamp is the most reliable.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

topspeed

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #267 on: May 06, 2023, 01:56:28 AM »
Sorry to disappoint you all, but Planet geared gene system seems to be too heavy for my wingsystem. All summer long I have had to reinforce the tower structure to keep it real steady. I accomplished at least that. I will try without the gear once more then I am done. After that new wings and the moment arm have to be constructed, but 30% or better efficiency is hardly available here.

(Attachment Link)

New thicker spikes to keep it steady.

15454-0

5x2s about 1 meter long plates can be added to it..to carry boulders to prevent any movent of the tower.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

MattM

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #268 on: May 09, 2023, 06:20:52 AM »
What is the ETA on the next test run?

topspeed

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #269 on: May 19, 2023, 02:25:50 PM »
What is the ETA on the next test run?

I cleaned the car first time after 5 years of testing. I had to pay 50 € for my daughter for being a big help for two hours.

I had a new test site in mind.

First I have to check if that stuff even fits the car anyomore.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

topspeed

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #270 on: July 25, 2023, 04:03:24 PM »
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #271 on: July 26, 2023, 06:58:33 AM »
I have watched this nice movie about the manufacture of helicopter rotor blades. These blades are very heayy because the airfoil is filled with massive iron rods and aluminium or iron pipes. These rods are covered with a 0.5 mm stainless steel skin which finally makes that the outside is a NACA 0012 airfoil. What I don't like is that the both sheet sides are glued together at the tailing edge. I would prefere welding but this requires a larger sheet thickness. I think that wind turbine blades with a constant chord and blade angle can also be made from stainless steel sheet. If the sheet thickness is chosen large enough, no internal structure is required. For a wind turbine one should use an asymetrical airfoil like the Gö 711. As helicopter, one needs a symmetrical airfoil because the rotor must be able to work as a wind turbine rotor if the motor fails. If the angle of attack is positive for helicopter use, it will be negative for wind turbine use.

Just today I have finished the design report KD 751 of the 3-bladed VIRYA-6.5S rotor which has a design tip speed ratio of 7. The blades of these rotor are made from a stainless steel sheet size 2 * 500 * 3000 mm which is curved into a NACA 711 airfoil. This rotor is an alternative for the rotor with wooden blades as described in public report KD 738. KD 751 isn't made public because this steel rotor should only be made by a professional company with sufficient knowledge and manufacturing equipment.

SparWeb

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #272 on: July 27, 2023, 01:02:56 AM »
Adriaan,
Can you clarify exactly which helicopter that was?
Quote
the airfoil is filled with massive iron rods and aluminium or iron pipes.

That's not even remotely similar to the helicopter blades I have worked on.  Can you retrace your steps to that video you saw?

When helicopter blades are retired from service (they have a fixed life) they are destroyed by the maintenance facility by sawing them to pieces.  I can't overstate the criticality of this action on the part of the maintenance facility - they can lose their permit to practice if they fail to disable or destroy parts that they retire from service.  At least, that's normal practice in North America and I don't know if it's exactly like that elsewhere in the world.  The objective is to prevent re-selling helicopters parts on the black market since they are extremely valuable (to some who think fatigue does not apply to them).

My point being (sorry for taking so long to explain) that I've seen many types of helicopters blades after being cut apart.  They all have very similar cross-sections.  The following is from the UH-1 "Huey".  It's a screen capture from the manufacturer's overhaul manual.
15542-0

To be clear there is no pipe, because such products have nowhere near the accurate dimensional tolerance to be acceptable in a helicopter.  The hollow sections are extrusions, and I expect these are machined/lapped after the extrusion process to ensure extremely tight tolerances before being assembled into the rotor blade.  The nose block is a typical balancing mass that prevents oscillation.  I've seen copper used since it's dense, chemically inert against aluminum, and has similar stiffness to aluminum.  Mixing radically different materials (e.g. steel and aluminum) doesn't work so well on a helicopter rotor blade because they will deform and disbond under the combined change in length from both elastic stress and thermal expansion.  So I would be surprised to see different types of metal in a helicopter rotor blade, except at the root end attachment where high-strength stainless steel is essential.

Quote
As helicopter, one needs a symmetrical airfoil because the rotor must be able to work as a wind turbine rotor if the motor fails. If the angle of attack is positive for helicopter use, it will be negative for wind turbine use.
Not true.  Symmetrical airfoil is much easier to manufacture.  The successor model to the blade pictured above (Bell 212) has blades with airfoil profile that varies from root to tip, and the tip is not symmetrical.  The need for reverse flow is entirely true, as you say, but that doesn't commit helicopter designs to have symmetrical airfoils.  The real limitation on the types of airfoils that should be used is the high variation of Reynold's Numbers where they must operate.  The tip traveling forward is nearly at the speed of sound when it is flying forward, and on the rear-ward stroke it has nearly zero velocity.  Each blade tip experiences this cycle on every revolution or the rotor.

I've been told many times that I should use old helicopter blades in my wind turbines.  It's an interesting place to start, and I do have access to them, but they are designed to be so structurally strong that they would make an extremely heavy wind turbine rotor.  And, it would be discouraging to repair blades that have been sawed apart by the shop before they can give them to me.
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Adriaan Kragten

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #273 on: July 27, 2023, 02:19:06 AM »
I have watched the video which is given in the link of the post of Topspeed reply #270 previous to my post. It concerns a helicopter which is developed by an idividual so not by a well established manufacturer. I might be wrong about the need of a symmetric airfoil for a helicopter blade but using a symmetric airfoil for a wind turbine blade of a HAWT is a wrong choice even if manufacture would be easier. Asymmetric airfoils of the same thickness have a higher maximum lift coefficient and a lower minimum Cd/Cl ratio at the same Reynolds value.

Use of the Gö 711 airfoil (see public report KD 285) for a constant chord blade of a wind turbine made out of stainless steel sheet is rather simple because the lower side of the Gö 711 airfoil is flat over 97.5 % of the chord. So you have to develop a tool for curving of the upper side of the airfoil and then only bend the lower side 90° at the leading edge. Both sides are welded together at the tailing edge. The airfoil has to be closed at the tip otherwise it may work as an organ pipe and become very noisy.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2023, 03:07:33 AM by Adriaan Kragten »

topspeed

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #274 on: July 28, 2023, 02:56:41 AM »
Adriaan,
Can you clarify exactly which helicopter that was?
Quote
the airfoil is filled with massive iron rods and aluminium or iron pipes.

That's not even remotely similar to the helicopter blades I have worked on.  Can you retrace your steps to that video you saw?

When helicopter blades are retired from service (they have a fixed life) they are destroyed by the maintenance facility by sawing them to pieces.  I can't overstate the criticality of this action on the part of the maintenance facility - they can lose their permit to practice if they fail to disable or destroy parts that they retire from service.  At least, that's normal practice in North America and I don't know if it's exactly like that elsewhere in the world.  The objective is to prevent re-selling helicopters parts on the black market since they are extremely valuable (to some who think fatigue does not apply to them).

My point being (sorry for taking so long to explain) that I've seen many types of helicopters blades after being cut apart.  They all have very similar cross-sections.  The following is from the UH-1 "Huey".  It's a screen capture from the manufacturer's overhaul manual.
(Attachment Link)

To be clear there is no pipe, because such products have nowhere near the accurate dimensional tolerance to be acceptable in a helicopter.  The hollow sections are extrusions, and I expect these are machined/lapped after the extrusion process to ensure extremely tight tolerances before being assembled into the rotor blade.  The nose block is a typical balancing mass that prevents oscillation.  I've seen copper used since it's dense, chemically inert against aluminum, and has similar stiffness to aluminum.  Mixing radically different materials (e.g. steel and aluminum) doesn't work so well on a helicopter rotor blade because they will deform and disbond under the combined change in length from both elastic stress and thermal expansion.  So I would be surprised to see different types of metal in a helicopter rotor blade, except at the root end attachment where high-strength stainless steel is essential.

Quote
As helicopter, one needs a symmetrical airfoil because the rotor must be able to work as a wind turbine rotor if the motor fails. If the angle of attack is positive for helicopter use, it will be negative for wind turbine use.
Not true.  Symmetrical airfoil is much easier to manufacture.  The successor model to the blade pictured above (Bell 212) has blades with airfoil profile that varies from root to tip, and the tip is not symmetrical.  The need for reverse flow is entirely true, as you say, but that doesn't commit helicopter designs to have symmetrical airfoils.  The real limitation on the types of airfoils that should be used is the high variation of Reynold's Numbers where they must operate.  The tip traveling forward is nearly at the speed of sound when it is flying forward, and on the rear-ward stroke it has nearly zero velocity.  Each blade tip experiences this cycle on every revolution or the rotor.

I've been told many times that I should use old helicopter blades in my wind turbines.  It's an interesting place to start, and I do have access to them, but they are designed to be so structurally strong that they would make an extremely heavy wind turbine rotor.  And, it would be discouraging to repair blades that have been sawed apart by the shop before they can give them to me.

Here is a good look at them ( helo blades): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_jbI1JeHc8

Incredible homebuilt contra blade system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAQ6uM_firQ
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

topspeed

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #275 on: July 28, 2023, 03:01:20 AM »
I have watched this nice movie about the manufacture of helicopter rotor blades. These blades are very heayy because the airfoil is filled with massive iron rods and aluminium or iron pipes. These rods are covered with a 0.5 mm stainless steel skin which finally makes that the outside is a NACA 0012 airfoil. What I don't like is that the both sheet sides are glued together at the tailing edge. I would prefere welding but this requires a larger sheet thickness. I think that wind turbine blades with a constant chord and blade angle can also be made from stainless steel sheet. If the sheet thickness is chosen large enough, no internal structure is required. For a wind turbine one should use an asymetrical airfoil like the Gö 711. As helicopter, one needs a symmetrical airfoil because the rotor must be able to work as a wind turbine rotor if the motor fails. If the angle of attack is positive for helicopter use, it will be negative for wind turbine use.

Just today I have finished the design report KD 751 of the 3-bladed VIRYA-6.5S rotor which has a design tip speed ratio of 7. The blades of these rotor are made from a stainless steel sheet size 2 * 500 * 3000 mm which is curved into a NACA 711 airfoil. This rotor is an alternative for the rotor with wooden blades as described in public report KD 738. KD 751 isn't made public because this steel rotor should only be made by a professional company with sufficient knowledge and manufacturing equipment.

Even cars are clued together nowadays.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

JW

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #276 on: July 28, 2023, 03:34:17 AM »
especial aluminum body panels.

topspeed

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #277 on: July 28, 2023, 03:43:30 AM »
especial aluminum body panels.

Yes adhesives have developed greatly during the last few years...or decades.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

JW

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #278 on: July 28, 2023, 03:49:04 AM »
 
  I think the alloy was 5356, aluminum auto wheels. I'm just happy don't any more things to do with it.

MattM

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #279 on: July 28, 2023, 07:17:09 AM »
Stretched metal is very durable.  You just need a way to reliably build in the stretching step.  That way no glue is required.

Mary B

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #280 on: July 28, 2023, 10:33:37 AM »
3m VHB tape, good stuff! I hung a picture with it 10 years ago, wanted to move it... had to saw the tape off with fishing line!

topspeed

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #281 on: August 01, 2023, 02:11:16 AM »
Down side using sheet metal is that I don't have the tools it needs.

I ordered a wrong watt meter...new one is coming.

15546-0
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

MattM

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #282 on: August 01, 2023, 08:32:24 AM »
You can use 16" or 18" bar folders (about $20) for handforming and use light aluminum siding material for easy fabrication of a skin.  Once you put even a tiny amount of stretch its extremely strong.

topspeed

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #283 on: August 20, 2023, 07:52:48 AM »
What is the ETA on the next test run?

It was 4-3 days ago. Some connection issues and teething problems with the new tower and new bearings.....but successfull after all. Energy being produced still at 3 m/s wind.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

topspeed

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #284 on: August 22, 2023, 08:45:33 AM »
Strenghtening of the tower is underway.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

topspeed

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #285 on: September 02, 2023, 04:05:29 AM »
This is incredible mess where I am now.

No when I strenghtened the upper part of the tower with carbon fibre slabs from the inside...the legs started to go jello again...despite the struts and + wiring I added to them.

 :o
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

MattM

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #286 on: September 02, 2023, 06:09:09 AM »
Too much weight or is the additive process weakening it?

topspeed

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #287 on: September 02, 2023, 07:35:31 AM »
Too much weight or is the additive process weakening it?

There is only 1 kg extra weight...the tower part is now stiff....so it acts like a moment arm...to the rest of the tower......for those 3 legs. :)

Despite the wobbling it managed to run 20+ hours in a row...when creating electricity. There was no sign of fatique.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

MattM

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #288 on: September 02, 2023, 03:36:28 PM »
Pictures or it did not happen. /wink wink

topspeed

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #289 on: September 03, 2023, 12:04:46 AM »
15578-0

15579-1

15580-2
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

MattM

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #290 on: September 03, 2023, 09:53:06 AM »
That aerodynamical part on top looks quite a bit larger than before.

How did the new torque arm turn out?

topspeed

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #291 on: September 03, 2023, 11:47:36 PM »
That aerodynamical part on top looks quite a bit larger than before.

How did the new torque arm turn out?

It may be unnecessasily heavy...but very sturdy now with bearings etc.

Blades are 26% bigger.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

JW

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #292 on: September 04, 2023, 05:35:05 PM »
I hate to be the one to say this, there's no way to know without a wind tunnel.

Im just saying building a 32ft dia wind tunnel is workable

topspeed

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #293 on: September 05, 2023, 12:23:59 AM »
VAWT don't produce predictable numbers in a tunnel...that is why I am on it.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

MattM

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #294 on: September 05, 2023, 07:14:26 AM »
Are you still toting the project around on your car or did you get a van?

topspeed

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #295 on: September 07, 2023, 02:55:20 AM »
Are you still toting the project around on your car or did you get a van?

Still in my small Volvo.

There is an other limiting factor ( besides lack of funding ) I cannot rise any bigger wind turbine than this...the decent Reynolds number would require 2-3 times bigger turbine.

These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

topspeed

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Re: H-Darreius wind turbines ( VAWT ) !
« Reply #296 on: September 08, 2023, 07:01:40 AM »
There was still one weak link here...the aluminium extension of the legs.

I am working to end it ( flexing ). ;)

15584-0
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals