Author Topic: Axial Flux turbine at 10,000' with Clipper and Classic - setup questions (Read 30030 times)

wbuffetjr1 · « **Reply #99 on:** October 07, 2019, 02:04:21 PM »

Well, I am back from the mountains. I installed the bigger blades as well as the bigger tail and replaced the roller blade wheels with a bearing. The turbine now yaws into the wind very easily.

I also tested the stator and I THINK I got some bad news. The stator made 18V at 100RPM. I checked each leg of the stator and they were all equal. You guys know I don't know much. That seems REALLY low to me. Still struggling to make power even with the bigger blades.

It also seems like it takes the blades much longer than it should to rev up. Is that normal? The anemometer cups willbe ripping along at 15-18mph and the blade set just slowly starts spinning faster and faster. It seems to me to take too long to catch up to the wind.

bigrockcandymountain · « **Reply #100 on:** October 07, 2019, 05:19:27 PM »

When you first turn it on i would say it is normal for it to take maybe 20 seconds to spin up and catch the wind. When it is already spinning, it should match the wind fairly quickly. Maybe 1 or 2 seconds to catch up to gusts.

18v at 100rpm is not high but not terribly low either. With that voltage, you should be able to set the classic to start right at 50v not the 140v we were saying.

18v at 100rpm likely means 48v at 267 rpm.

267 rpm with a 9.2' rotor is 128 fps or 87 mph at the tips. So 10 mph cut in would be tsr 8.7 which is likely fine.

Something definitely doesn't add up. You should be making power. Try setting the classic to cut in at 50v. That is all i can think of

Adriaan Kragten · « **Reply #101 on:** October 08, 2019, 02:20:23 PM »

Quote from: wbuffetjr1 on October 07, 2019, 02:04:21 PM

I also tested the stator and I THINK I got some bad news. The stator made 18V at 100RPM. I checked each leg of the stator and they were all equal. You guys know I don't know much. That seems REALLY low to me. Still struggling to make power even with the bigger blades.

If you have measured a single stator phase, you should have measured the effective AC voltage of that phase. I assume that the phases are connected in star and that the star point is available outside the generator. The effective AC phase voltage is the AC voltage in between the star point and the open end of that phase. If you have measured the AC voltage in between the open ends of two phases, it is a factor square root of three = 1.732 higher than the effective AC phase voltage. The rectified DC voltage is a factor 2.339 higher than the effective AC phase voltage for star rectification and a factor 1.351 higher for delta rectification (if the voltage drop over the rectifier diodes is neglected).

So the rectified DC voltage is higher than the AC voltage. How much higher depends on how you have measured the AC voltage. So your measurements may not be as disappointing as you think if you have measured the effective AC phase voltage. Information about rectification of a 3-phase current is given in my free public report KD 340 which you can find on my website: www.kdwindturbines.nl at the menu KD-reports.

wbuffetjr1 · « **Reply #102 on:** October 13, 2019, 08:54:07 AM »

Thanks for the input guys. Now I am starting to think I must have something wired wrong. I am not sure what could be the issue. Does anyone have pics of a wind classic connected to a clipper and a solar classic then going into an epanel??

Boondocker · « **Reply #103 on:** October 13, 2019, 02:02:33 PM »

IN agreement with Mr. Chis Olson, small and homemade wind turbines, are fun toy to play with. To enjoy a person needs a good aptitude in in electronic and mechanics also a strong will to troubleshoot and learn. Don't expect to make money or break even. At best, the numbers look reasonable when you have to pay for poles or trenching to a remote site
(review the manuals verify all terminations and software settings). Attached is a diagram of a working system to help you begin troubleshoot. Be respectable to the posters, many have made and have functional working wind systems.
A humble poster providing free advice,

BD.

bigrockcandymountain · « **Reply #104 on:** October 13, 2019, 02:06:07 PM »

I kind of wonder if your clipper is diverting to the dump resistors. Could be as simple as your aux output set to manual on, not clipper control. That is an easy mistake to make. It would make it act the way you are seeing.

Did you observe the whole system in a good blow your hat away wind while you were up there?

As for incorrect wiring, it is possible. I don't have a factory clipper so no help there. If you could get a picture of your wiring, we could check it for you.

wbuffetjr1 · « **Reply #105 on:** October 14, 2019, 05:13:49 PM »

BRC,

I am fairly confused at this point. I KNOW the Classic is set to Clipper Control and I triple checked all the other settings. Doesn't mean I don't have one of them wrong still I guess. I am starting to wonder if I have a faulty component somewhere.

I didn't see any spectacular wind, but I saw some 15mph winds and still no power. It actually seemed like it was making less voltage with the bigger blades on. That doesn't seem normal at all.

bigrockcandymountain · « **Reply #106 on:** October 14, 2019, 06:04:49 PM »

It is not impossible. Solid state relays tend to fail on. That would make it dump power to the resistors. It should make more power with the bigger blades though i would think.

How did you measure the voltage at 100rpm? Was it on the dc side of the rectifier, or just between 2 phase wires?

Was your multimeter set to ac volts or dc volts?

wbuffetjr1 · « **Reply #107 on:** October 14, 2019, 06:15:52 PM »

We checked it right at the stator on the phase wires. Then checked it again at the clipper on the phase wires. Meter was set to AC volts.

bigrockcandymountain · « **Reply #108 on:** October 14, 2019, 10:09:53 PM »

Ok my rpm calculations are wrong then. Your dc voltage will be higher and cut in rpm will be lower than i stated. Around 200rpm for 48v i think.

wbuffetjr1 · « **Reply #109 on:** October 16, 2019, 08:14:35 AM »

Boondocker,

Not sure how I missed your post. Thank you for the input and diagram!

Here are some pics of my setup. I am not quite sure where I could have messed up any wiring. It was fairly straight forward. Only spot I thought could be a problem was where I brought power into the epanel from the Wind Classic. I tied it into the positive and negative battery busbars. The SAME place the solar classic is tied to. The wind classic shows a constant input of 10.6V and I initially thought that was a problem, but I called Midnite and they said it's normal. The solar Classic came prewired onto the epanel by Midnite. They did not have a negative wire out from the Classic to the epanel. We DID install a negative wire out from the wind Classic to the epanel. I used 80' of 6 gauge wire from the turbine to the Clipper.

bigrockcandymountain · « **Reply #110 on:** October 16, 2019, 09:03:12 AM »

The output of the wind classic goes through an 80a breaker and to the battery bus from what i can see. That looks fine. It is correct to tie everything to the battery bus.

What is your second aux output on the wind classic? Could the 2 aux outputs be backward? I believe aux 2 might be on the left.

What are the small wires tied to the dc strap input of the inverter?

Constant 106v sounds wrong to me on the volts in. Mine sits at 36v or so with no wind. I think it should be under battery voltage. Or is that your cut in step setting and it sits there when it is trying to make power?

wbuffetjr1 · « **Reply #111 on:** October 16, 2019, 09:07:44 AM »

Sorry BRC that was supposed to be 10.6V. I fixed it.

The small wires on DC strap came that way from Midnite. Off the top of my head don't remember where they go.

The second aux output powers a relay that runs a pump for a diversion load. I tested the diversion load by doing manual aux on and the pump ran so they cannot be backwards.

bigrockcandymountain · « **Reply #112 on:** October 17, 2019, 06:06:23 PM »

Ok, that is good that you confirmed your aux output works. That rules that out.

Sorry, i am a little confused. What was supposed to be 10.6v? Is that the measurement between 2 stator wires at 100 rpm?

wbuffetjr1 · « **Reply #113 on:** October 18, 2019, 06:54:06 AM »

Sorry for the confusion. The wind Classic reads a constant in of 10.6V

bigrockcandymountain · « **Reply #114 on:** October 18, 2019, 08:23:25 AM »

The next test i would do is to bypass the clipper. You will need a rectifier though.

kitestrings · « **Reply #115 on:** October 18, 2019, 08:31:23 AM »

Check my math if I've missed something, but if you have 18VAC (L-L) at the alternator, and
line volts = rms volts/ph x 1.732, and
DC volts = rms volts/ph x 1.732 x 1.4, therefore, you should have about 26VDC at the 100 rpm pace.

If so, you would expect to see a cut-in voltage of ~50VDC at 190 rpm. I think this is close to what BRC is suggesting.

If the first of your 16 steps is at 140V, it is way too high. I'd suggest your first step be -0- amps and voltage close, but a bit above nominal battery voltage, then ramp up - going light on the amperage settings for the first few steps - from there. The last step can be somewhere near your max amps, and your Current Limit in the Classic should be at or near the same. The mid - to upper stages can be adjusted, but I think you need a starting point.

I would double check the Classic settings, that you are configured for 48V, and getting this to the Classic - I believe you said this is your bank voltage, correct - 10.6V sounds too low for the standing voltage. I'm thinking ours is in the mid - to upper 30-volt range.

~ks

wbuffetjr1 · « **Reply #116 on:** October 18, 2019, 10:37:57 AM »

Thanks for all the advice BRC and Kitestrings.

I will get my buddy to update curve this weekend. I dropped the cut in down to 100V before I left, but I will get him to bring it on down further. I do have a 48V battery bank.

What could be causing my standing voltage to be so much lower than y'alls? It has been 10.6V since the day I hooked it up.

kitestrings · « **Reply #117 on:** October 18, 2019, 11:28:54 AM »

I don't believe 100V is low enough, and there is no harm in having the early steps low. If it goes over it will just move to the next higher step, but you want to wake the thing at cut-in and have it start loading above this point.

You may have already, but double check that the Classic is set for 48V. I believe the default may be 12V. Check that you have wind track mode selected.

Don't be afraid to contact MS. Their support is one of their strengths IMO.

bigrockcandymountain · « **Reply #118 on:** October 19, 2019, 10:33:19 AM »

My standing voltage is also mid 30s on both classics. I don't have a factory clipper, so that may be the reason yours is different though. Neither does kitestrings. The clipper has a circuit board where the wires go out to the classic. That may draw the voltage down.

My math is the same as yours kitestrings. I also vote to lower the step 1 to around 48v.

And ya, confirm all the setup steps like wind track mode, voltage, etc.

Adriaan Kragten · « **Reply #119 on:** October 20, 2019, 05:20:19 AM »

Quote from: wbuffetjr1 on October 14, 2019, 05:13:49 PM

BRC,

I didn't see any spectacular wind, but I saw some 15mph winds and still no power. It actually seemed like it was making less voltage with the bigger blades on. That doesn't seem normal at all.

If the new bigger rotor has a rotor radius R2 and if the original rotor has a rotor radius R1, the rotational speed of the new rotor decreases with R1 / R2 if both rotors are running at the same tip speed ratio and at the same wind speed. So it is correct that the new rotor makes less voltage with bigger blades if the new rotor has the same design tip speed ratio as the original rotor. So if the original rotor is matching well with the generator, a bigger rotor with the same design tip speed ratio won't match well. Matching is explained in chapter 8 of my public report KD 35.

The original rotor has a certain optimum cubic line which is the line through the tops of the P-n curves for different wind speeds. Assume that the generator is matched well with the original rotor. This means that the Pmech-n curve of the generator for the correct load will lie close to the optimum cubic line of the rotor. If you want the same matching for a new bigger rotor, the design tip speed ratio of the new bigger rotor must be a lot higher. The same matching means that the new bigger rotor must have the same optimum cubic line as the original rotor.

The formula for the optimum cubic line is given as formula 8.1 in KD 35. I can write no Greek letters on this forum so I write lambda for tip speed ratio. Next assume that the air density rho is constant and that both rotors have the same Cp. This means that R^5 / lambda^3 must be constant to get the same cubic line. This means that R1^5 / lambda1^3 = R2^5 / lambda2^3 or that lambda2 = lambda1 * (R2 / R1)^5/3. If you play a little with this formula, you will see that a certain increase of R results in a much stronger increase of lambda.

Example: Assume that the original rotor has a radius R1 = 1.5 m and a design tip speed ratio lambda1 = 6. Assume that the new rotor has a radius R2 = 2 m. What must be the design tip speed ratio lambda2 of the new rotor the get the same optimum cubic line? If you put the values in the given formula, you will find that lambda2 = 9.691. So the design lambda increases much stronger than R to get the same optimum cubic line and so the same matching. If you don't increase the lambda if you increase the rotor diameter, you will get a large distance in between the Pmech-n curve of the generator and the optimum cubic line of the rotor and this results in bad matching.

The matching might be that bad, that the bigger rotor gives a lower output than the original rotor at low wind speeds. Another disadvantage of the bad matching is that the new bigger rotor will run at a much higher tip speed ratio than the design tip speed ratio and it will therefore be much noisier as the angles of attack are not optimal for this too high tip speed ratio.

wbuffetjr1 · « **Reply #120 on:** October 20, 2019, 09:50:18 AM »

The turbine made a handful of watts this morning. First time since I have been back. Around the time it was making power the anemometer recorded 30mph gust and 15mph winds. Maybe the info from MyMidnite might help us undertsnd the problem?? One, I am not sure why it says the SOC is 100%. Both Classics are in follow me mode and at that time the solar Classic said SOC was 97%. Have not been able to get new curve uploaded yet so cut in is still at 100V and next step is 110V and 1 amp. The first two voltage spikes appear to have stalled at 100V.

wbuffetjr1 · « **Reply #121 on:** October 22, 2019, 09:34:36 AM »

Another tidbit of info...

There has been a good bit of bad weather up at the cabin. Have about 4" of snow on the ground right now. Yesterday was extremely cloudy with some flurries. As of this morning the solar classic says the battery bank is sitting SOC is sitting at 86%. The wind classic still says SOC is 100%. The solar classic is connected to a whizbang jr but the wind classic is not. Unless I am mistaken, the manual says you don't need two whizbangs, if the classics are in follow me they can share one whizbang. Could we be onto the problem? Could the wind classic for some reason be thinking we are in constant float and be clipping everything? I don't think this is the case, because if so I wouldn't think it would have made the few watts it did on Sunday morning.

In the pic I posted why would the wind classic see 1.8A and the whizbang see zero amps?? The resting draw on my system is a consistent 1.0-1.1A.

Just wondering if anyone has any ideas.

DamonHD · « **Reply #122 on:** October 22, 2019, 11:41:47 AM »

Wading in here REALLY late like a fool...

1) Is everything set up in the system for the same type of batteries (gel, AGM, flooded).

2) Is there a battery temperature sensor wired up? If so how? (I'll scroll back and take a quick look back up the thread now while no one's looking - it's nearly 5pm!)

I see a temp sensor wired to the wind controller but not the solar: that could partly explain the difference in views on SoC?

Rgds

Damon

bigrockcandymountain · « **Reply #123 on:** October 22, 2019, 02:31:32 PM »

If you want to test that, you can program it like mine.

My wind classic is set to absorb at like 62v the solar is set to absorb at 59.6 or something. The solar classic dumps power above 60v. So my wind classic stays in bulk mppt all the time making all the power it can. You have a clipper, so don't leave it set up like that, but for testing it might be useful. You would turn OFF follow me for the test.

It actually works quite well. The turbine stays loaded. The solar classic will throttle the solar when both wind and solar are producing, and the dump load isn't big enough to handle both.

Having said that, i don't think what you are seeing is wrong with the 100% soc. I don't have a whizbang jr so can't say for sure.

I do think the follow me might be the cause. If your solar classic is always in float, it may cause the wind one to clip all the time. My test would tell if that is the problem.

Did you change the step 1 settings?

wbuffetjr1 · « **Reply #124 on:** October 22, 2019, 03:40:09 PM »

Quote from: DamonHD on October 22, 2019, 11:41:47 AM

Wading in here REALLY late like a fool...

1) Is everything set up in the system for the same type of batteries (gel, AGM, flooded).

2) Is there a battery temperature sensor wired up? If so how? (I'll scroll back and take a quick look back up the thread now while no one's looking - it's nearly 5pm!)

I see a temp sensor wired to the wind controller but not the solar: that could partly explain the difference in views on SoC?

Damon - thanks for the help!!

I guess I could have made a mistake on a setting somewhere. Not going to bet my life on that, BUT.... I TRIPLE checked all that stuff. Set up for 48V flooded batteries and bulk, absorb and float volatges match.

There is only one battery temp sensor and it is on the solar classic. The manual says the two classics can share one BTS so I did not install the second one.

wbuffetjr1 · « **Reply #125 on:** October 22, 2019, 03:41:54 PM »

Quote from: bigrockcandymountain on October 22, 2019, 02:31:32 PM

If you want to test that, you can program it like mine.

My wind classic is set to absorb at like 62v the solar is set to absorb at 59.6 or something. The solar classic dumps power above 60v. So my wind classic stays in bulk mppt all the time making all the power it can. You have a clipper, so don't leave it set up like that, but for testing it might be useful. You would turn OFF follow me for the test.

It actually works quite well. The turbine stays loaded. The solar classic will throttle the solar when both wind and solar are producing, and the dump load isn't big enough to handle both.

Having said that, i don't think what you are seeing is wrong with the 100% soc. I don't have a whizbang jr so can't say for sure.

I do think the follow me might be the cause. If your solar classic is always in float, it may cause the wind one to clip all the time. My test would tell if that is the problem.

Did you change the step 1 settings?

BRC - unfortunately with me not being up there I cannot experiment with stuff like that until next Summer.

My buddy was supposed to go up this weekend and he was going to put in the new curve for me. He did not make it up. Hopefully he will get up there by this coming weekend.

boB · « **Reply #126 on:** October 23, 2019, 12:18:19 AM »

wbuffetjr1, Been reading the posts at least on this one page.

I see that the Classic input voltage is sitting at 10V or so with no wind ? I can't tell exactly which generation of clipper you have but, are you powering the clipper from the 48V battery or is the jumper set to be powered from the wind turbine itself ? If the latter, then that would probably drop the input voltage to 10V rather than sitting in the mid 30V range.

The internal power supply for the clipper when powered off the turbine itself is set to turn on somewhere around 40ish volts rather than letting it try to start up at say, 10V. This is so the auxiliary power supply on the clipper doesn't stall a turbine wired for higher voltage.

About the WB Jr. discrepancy... Are the 2 WB Jrs wired to each Classic's negative individually ? Where is the turbine negative output tied to ? Is it going to the Classic PV negative terminal and the other negative terminal going to the WB Jr. shunt ? I think that should work fine. What CAN happen is when the PV- or wind- goes to the battery negative and a single negative wire from the Classic goes to the battery negative, that common Classic negative line will carry the difference between PV/wind current and battery output current.
The situation is confusing to me too sometimes. But, that should not cause the problem of your turbine not making power and being tracked by the Classic and the clipper working properly.

When the clipper is clipping, the LED on the 3-phase triac inside the clipper on the side should light up whether or not the turbine is running. You can see this by going into the wind classic's aux menu and force it to ON and see if that LED lights up and should go OFF when you put it back to clipper or aux off.

What I like to do to check for issues like you are having is to some how temporarily disable the clipper altogether and see how the input voltage rises when you start to get wind. Does it tend to stall the turbine when you hook the clipper back up ?

Maybe if there is SOME wind, disconnect the turbine from the clipper input and see if the turbine starts spinning up or not. Then, if it does un-brake itself, hook it back up to the clipper so it doesn't run away.

Also, I don't know what your turbine is wired for, voltage wise or which Classic you have... 150, 200 or 250.

Heck, maybe the clipper is broken or the fail-safe clip trimpot is adjusted too low ? Will check back again later.

boB

wbuffetjr1 · « **Reply #127 on:** October 23, 2019, 09:04:14 AM »

Bob,

Thank you so much for the reply!!

I am not sure what generation of Clipper I have either. I just purchased it earlier this year so I am assuming it is the most recent generation, but could be wrong. In the instructions I don't remember seeing anything about a jumper and/or an option to power the Clipper from the battery bank. Mine is powered directly from the turbine.

I only have one WB Jr. I thought the two Classics could run off of one WB Jr when they are in follow me mode?? On page 5 of this thread I have pics of my setup that shows all the wiring. The Classic running my turbine/Clipper is a 250. The turbine negative goes to my wind Classic negative PV terminal. The negative out terminal on the wind classic is going to the battery negative busbar in my epanel. The positive out terminal on the wind Classic is going to the battery positive busbar in my epanel.

Unfortunately my turbine is in Colorado and I am in Atlanta. I will possibly be up there for Christmas, but not before so trying to disable the Clipper is not possible right now. I will say this. The turbine spins up but just does not make any power. When I pull the stop lever on the Clipper it locks the turbine down and when I push the lever back to run the turbine will spin up again. I have the trimpot set to 200V.

boB · « **Reply #128 on:** October 24, 2019, 02:20:57 AM »

OK, good information.

Turning on the brake switch works correctly. This is a good sign !

You will want to check to see if maybe the Clipper is turning on prematurely when you get back to the site.

Keep us posted and/or give me a shout when you get back there.

boB

bigrockcandymountain · « **Reply #129 on:** October 24, 2019, 09:54:47 AM »

I would bet your clipper is set to come on too early. There are a few adjustments in the clipper control aux function in the classic. Did you set them at all?

Also, no saying the pot that you say is set at 200v is actually calibrated to 200v. That could be out of whack too.

Or the solid state relay could be failed in the on state. I had that happen with a brand new one.

Lots of possible problems. All of them will be less of a problem if you get that curve reprogrammed for a lower voltage cut in.
Sorry we told you to raise it before. It seemed like the thing to do at the time.

You can text or call me to when you are onsite. Just pm for a number in advance.

boB · « **Reply #130 on:** October 24, 2019, 12:35:00 PM »

Yes, that trim-pot on the Clipper itself is "ball park" but kinda close-ish.

wbuffetjr1 · « **Reply #131 on:** October 24, 2019, 01:44:30 PM »

As usual, thanks for all the help guys!! I would have bet that I set all the Clipper control functions correctly, but now that I am so far away and it's not working of course I am second guessing. If the Clipper was the problem and is shutting the turbine down prematurely would it have allowed the turbine and/or Classic to produce the 95 watts the other morning??

Still trying to get my buddy up there to program the curve

Quick question on the curve. With my 48V bank my absorb voltage is set around 58V. Do I need to make cut in higher than that? Should I start cut in at 60V or 62V or no?

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Author Topic: Axial Flux turbine at 10,000' with Clipper and Classic - setup questions (Read 30030 times)