Author Topic: First build (Read 5380 times)

GreenTeam · « **on:** July 22, 2020, 09:19:23 PM »

I'm in the process of my first build with almost all salvaged parts. I originally tried to make my diameter 4 Inches for a 6 coil 3 phase alternator ,because the metal disc I found at home hardware is 4 inches. But the magnets I'm using came out if a hoverboard and are way to wide. It makes the coils way to large for a 4 inch diameter. Now back to the drawing board for a diameter.

I built a coil jig for my winder using plywood and it's the exact same size as my magnets are. And the wire is 0.5mmx4 strands. So I'm hoping that 30 turns on the winding machine is equivelant to 120 turns because I'm using 4 strands at once.

The stator will be cast using quarter inch plywood so it will be just a quarter inch thick or 9.?mm thick.
As for the diameter, I geuss I better wind 6 coils first than draw out my mold.

GreenTeam · « **Reply #1 on:** July 22, 2020, 09:49:42 PM »

My first coil wound with 30 turns of 0.5mm wire x 4 strands. But, I traced the outside diameter of the magnet and made exacting dimension on my jig. Yet, the inside hole of the coil is a tad bit larger than my magnet ....

.
Next coil shall be tighter I geuss. Also, does the coil wound matter such as the inside wire being on the left or the right? There is no literature I can find that states with axial flux you wind clock wise than counter clock wise etc.

SparWeb · « **Reply #2 on:** July 23, 2020, 01:05:08 AM »

The orientation of the coil clockwise or counterclockwise does matter, when you connect two coils together. If the voltage or current pulses are out of phase, they will cancel. In phase, and they add (which is good).

MagnetJuice · « **Reply #3 on:** July 23, 2020, 01:07:31 AM »

Quote from: GreenTeam on July 22, 2020, 09:49:42 PM

There is no literature I can find that states with axial flux you wind clock wise than counter clock wise etc.

In Hugh Piggott's book, pages 35 and 36, he explains everything about winding the coils in detail and with images.

The digital book only costs $3.68 for instant download. You can learn a lot and save a lot of time and materials for a very small investment.

Here is the link:

https://scoraigwind.co.uk/all-of-the-books-by-hugh-how-to-get-them

Ed

GreenTeam · « **Reply #4 on:** July 23, 2020, 01:40:17 AM »

Oh thank you! All the literature I've been reading usually is written about fractional , single double something something type of windings. University papers ....

GreenTeam · « **Reply #5 on:** July 23, 2020, 01:42:03 AM »

How do you tell if they are clockwise wound? Or counter clockwise wound by looking at a coil that's not in a stator? Can you tell by the legs?

GreenTeam · « **Reply #6 on:** July 23, 2020, 02:05:10 AM »

So I wound all these coils counterclockwise or clockwise? I did not think that would matter since they are all pretty much the same ....
If all six coils are wound backwards , couldn't that be rectified by having the magnet rotors turn the other direction?

bigrockcandymountain · « **Reply #7 on:** July 23, 2020, 01:48:16 PM »

30 turns 4 in hand is not the same as 120 turns. The voltage will be 1/4 and the amperage will be 4x that of a coil with a single strand of 120 turns.

mab · « **Reply #8 on:** July 23, 2020, 05:32:11 PM »

Quote from: GreenTeam on July 23, 2020, 01:42:03 AM

How do you tell if they are clockwise wound? Or counter clockwise wound by looking at a coil that's not in a stator? Can you tell by the legs?

if your coils are still lying on the bench and not yet assembled into the stator, then no, they're neither clockwise or counterclockwise. When you assemble them in the stator the pairs of coils that make up each phase must then be both wired together so the current flows the same direction in both. As to whether or not it matters if the current is going from the inside of the coil to the outside - i don't think so - just as long as they're both going cw or both ccw.

MagnetJuice · « **Reply #9 on:** July 23, 2020, 05:40:52 PM »

GreenTeam, I hate to see you struggling to come up with the configuration for a working alternator design. I don’t want you to fail, get discouraged and quit.

You already have enough magnets and wire to build a few alternators.

I can give you the steel disk dimensions, the number of magnets and coils, and the number of turns of wire that you need for the coils. I think that you can build a nice little system that you can experiment with. Something to get you started and motivated.

Would you like me to give you that information?

Ed

GreenTeam · « **Reply #10 on:** July 23, 2020, 07:53:07 PM »

Definitely I would like that!
I'm not going to give up that easily. I am just susceptible to paralysis through over-analysis lol.

GreenTeam · « **Reply #11 on:** July 23, 2020, 07:57:07 PM »

Quote from: mab on July 23, 2020, 05:32:11 PM

Quote from: GreenTeam on July 23, 2020, 01:42:03 AM
How do you tell if they are clockwise wound? Or counter clockwise wound by looking at a coil that's not in a stator? Can you tell by the legs?

if your coils are still lying on the bench and not yet assembled into the stator, then no, they're neither clockwise or counterclockwise. When you assemble them in the stator the pairs of coils that make up each phase must then be both wired together so the current flows the same direction in both. As to whether or not it matters if the current is going from the inside of the coil to the outside - i don't think so - just as long as they're both going cw or both ccw.

I understand the clockwise and counter clockwise stuff, sort of. But, when you solder the coils together, there is no diodes to make the current one way only. I don't see how it is clockwise or not. It's not climbing up hill or downhill, no resisters or diodes. So how does electricity come to the conclusion about direction?

SparWeb · « **Reply #12 on:** July 24, 2020, 01:16:08 AM »

Well, it's AC, so "alternating". It's going back and forth so anything like a diode is a really bad thing to put in the coils.

If it helps...
1) it doesn't matter if it's ABSOLUTELY CLOCKWISE in any given spot.
2) a clockwise coil passing over a magnet N pole gives the same current flow direction as a counter-clockwise coil over a S pole.

What you want is more like this: If the current flows clockwise in one coil with a magnet pole passing it, and you follow the current in the wire out of that coil and into the next, it should be clockwise there if the magnet pole is the SAME, or counter-clockwise if the pole is the OPPOSITE.

I second the recommendation for Hugh's book. You might be able to sort this out faster if you just sort it out first.

In addition, you could put some of those coils on a disk and spin your magnet disk over them. A power drill can do that. Align the coils with the magnets and feel the pulse of the torque. Connect the coils this way and that and see what happens. Try combination of 1 coil, 2 coils both CW, 2 coils CCW, 2 coils opposed, or even short all the wires together and so on.

electrondady1 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 24, 2020, 08:30:45 AM »

green team, i found used table saw blades 8" or 10" to be very useful for building magnet rotors. you have some pretty good magnets there so you would need to stack up two or three blades to contain the magnetism. carpenters and cabinet makers go through lots. check around for someone that sharpens saw blades.

kitestrings · « **Reply #14 on:** July 24, 2020, 10:15:14 AM »

Using saw blade rotor:
https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,149126.msg1038968.html#msg1038968

If you have enough magnets, I assume you could do a six coil, eight magnet configuration (for 3-phase AC output).

GreenTeam · « **Reply #15 on:** July 24, 2020, 02:14:23 PM »

Umm i have about 250 neodyms of two different sizes, and maybe 60+ hard drive magnets. So clockwise orientation is dependant upon which way the wind blows lol . Sounds like the magnet pattern dictates that . And since they are always in a N S pattern, it will depend on which way the propellor turns really .....

kitestrings · « **Reply #16 on:** July 24, 2020, 03:34:08 PM »

I don't think that is what matters, only the relationship relative to your coils.

Bruce S · « **Reply #17 on:** July 24, 2020, 03:50:53 PM »

I agree with kitestrings.
Basically with the magnets arranged in a N-S-N-S or S-N-S-N , no matter if the wind has it turning clockwise or counterclockwise, it'll still be moving the magnets across the wires in a N-S-N-S or S-N-S-N the wild AC outputs will somewhere down the line be rectified into Pos/Neg outputs.

Hope this helps
Bruce S

MagnetJuice · « **Reply #18 on:** July 24, 2020, 08:06:04 PM »

Here is what 12 of those magnets looks like on a 7-inch saw blade. Actually, you can only use 6 1/2 inches of the blade to place the magnets.

I already had a blade for these pictures. It is part of a little alternator that I started doing on a fishing reel. I will be going fishing for amps.

I think that for the GreenTeam alternator, it would be better to use 10 inch blades. The reason for that is that if the coils turn out a bit too fat, there will be room for them. Those used blades can be found cheap at second hand stores or like electrondady said, from carpenters or cabinetmakers.

Those magnets are small, that is why I think that having 12 per rotor is better than 8. Also, they are only 3mm thick. If we stack 3 together, they can produce enough power to make the experiment worthwhile.

GreenTeam, can you break loose 72 of those magnets for this project? I think that the ones you showed on the other thread about the motors are 20 x 14 x 3 mm.

I think that it could be possible to turn this with a 4 ft. prop with a TSR of about 5. That could start charging a 12 volt battery at about 300 RPM. Others here may know more about this than I.

Ed

GreenTeam · « **Reply #19 on:** July 25, 2020, 04:58:58 AM »

Yes, I can soak the hoverboard wheels in acetone and remove them. 72 magnets would be 3 wheels for me. And I also get one of these

spools of 0.5mm X2 wire per phase!. Times 3 phase x 2 wheels. And I have I think 20 motors in total. And 20 magnets per wheel also.

I found that if you can buy a hoverboard for less than say 40 dollars , you will easily get three times as much back in materials to upcycle. Almost all of my materials are from scrounging , upcycling, and unwinding stators very very carefully lol. Also hard drives return killer

neodyms which I have a plan for those also.

GreenTeam · « **Reply #20 on:** July 25, 2020, 05:48:05 AM »

So I have read stated books very carefully, and there is nothing about clockwise counterclockwise winding and how it affects power creation. All it does say is to join the coils in series not parallel. The only windings I can find that speak of windings usually state them such as AaABbBCcC-and that is for radial flux only. Following Hugh piggott plans I wind up with this layout

Exactly. And like I say, nothing about axial flux windings described as coil 1 CW coil 2 CCW coil 3 CW and coil 3 CCW....and also nothing that explicitly states coils that hit a N magnet is wound CW and ones that hit a S magnet are CCW . And if it does, than maybe Im on meth or something . This is a clockwise and counterclockwise wound stator

. And that is also how the winding is also described.......

MagnetJuice · « **Reply #21 on:** July 25, 2020, 02:11:59 PM »

Yes, I can see why you suffer from analyzation paralization

I found some really nice and helpful videos for you.

I have found out that seeing images and watching videos is more helpful than reading text.
Especially when it comes to wiring or to trying to understand a complex subject like this.

In this video by muddymuddymuddmann, he shows how to wire a 3-phase stator with 9 coils.
A nice explanation by a very helpful builder.

Take your time watching this video. It would help if you draw your own diagram on paper so you can use it later when doing the wiring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61EIQUAZfoA

This is Hugh Piggott winding a coil with a simple coil winder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUOGPASZrAA

I think that the one below is the best one for understanding how voltage is generated in a 3-phase alternator. It is from Hugh Piggott's blog. I hope that your browser has the right plug-in so that you can see the animation or visualisation as Hugh calls it.

https://scoraigwind.co.uk/2012/12/3-phase-stator-visualisation

If you watch these videos a few times, you are going to find the answers to a lot of your questions.

Ed

Adriaan Kragten · « **Reply #22 on:** July 26, 2020, 09:40:46 AM »

A lot of information about PM-generators can be found in my public report KD 341 which can be copied for free from my website: www.kdwindturbines.nl at the menu KD-reports. Information about rectification is given in public report KD 340. If you have a 3-phase winding with only one coil per phase, the winding direction isn't important. However, if you have several coils of one phase which are connected in series, the winding direction must be identical if all coils of a certain phase are opposite to a north pole at the same time. A simple 8-pole axial flux PM-generator with six coils for the VIRYA-1 rotor is described in public report KD 679. This generator makes use of a bicycle hub as housing and the characteristics for 12 V battery charging have been measured. The VIRYA-1 is described in a folder which is given at the menu VIRYA-folders.

kitestrings · « **Reply #23 on:** July 26, 2020, 10:07:33 PM »

Hi GreenT,

Yeah, I would spend some time looking at Ed's last link. That sums it up pretty well. The coil layout in your last post looks to me like a radial-wound alternator; most likely an F&P type of design.

You'll notice that the orientation does matter - you want all of the coils in a each phase (three in the illustration, right) "rowing" in the same direction if you will.

The coils you have will get you started, but you should be prepared to adjust the number of turns based on some early trials. If you know the magnets you plan to use, you can go ahead and mount them on a rotor, or pair of rotors. Then with just one coil in the air gap you can measure the voltage over a range of rpms. It will be linear, and you can adjust things from there.

Have fun, but be safe.

klsmurf · « **Reply #24 on:** July 28, 2020, 06:19:02 PM »

Hi all,

Haven't been around in a while, but this post caught my eye. Don't know if this would help you any, Green T. This is a small axial I built a few years back. https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?topic=147784.0 Sorry about the banners on the pics. Photobucket wants money for what use to be free. Go figure.

Kevin

SparWeb · « **Reply #25 on:** July 29, 2020, 12:31:05 AM »

Hi Smurf!

I hope you are doing well.

Did you ever rebuild?

klsmurf · « **Reply #26 on:** July 29, 2020, 04:14:21 PM »

Hi Spar!

I'm doing well! Working too much and trying to avoid the "RONA".

Hope you are well also.

I did rebuild the stator using a single strand of 16/awg. It ran fine, but not as good as my 2-in-hand version. It ran for about a year until the blades wore out. Soft cedar, with no leading edge protection on a 5 footer; you can imagine what they looked like! I've got all the "stuff" to build a 10 footer, but just need the time. I work on the road a lot now a days, so not much time to tinker back on the farm. Hopefully able to retire in a couple of years and build the bigger one.

Take care Kevin

SparWeb · « **Reply #27 on:** July 30, 2020, 12:21:59 AM »

I'm glad to hear it!
You'll get the time, it's just a matter of time. Uhhh circular logic there.... you know what I mean.
Anyway, you know where we are when it comes time to work on the next one. I hope it's soon.

Mary B · « **Reply #28 on:** July 30, 2020, 12:57:15 PM »

Don't retire, you will have even less time for projects!

GreenTeam · « **Reply #29 on:** September 04, 2020, 12:49:56 PM »

lessons learned in gennie building....
( grab popcorn )
i first started out with a clear direction of building a micro wind turbine to run a smart phone.....and i thought i could do it by harvesting magnets from diacared smart phones. Than i learned about N-S confighration. I even kept my little stash of magnets for historical purposes. Thats them! Cant see them ? They are dead center in the middle of the ginormous stator.

Ever try to find the polarity of a magnet that small? i tried ......anyhoo....moved on. My very first real stator was actually quite a feat of engineering , considering all my knowledge came from about ten mins of youtube. Than i learned after the fact that you cannot solder anything to bolts with out a welder....And my mold should have been lined with parchment paper. Oh i also figured out that you cant tell how much resin is poured by looking. Its clear. So some coils came partially bare, the mold was not well planned.

Result: 3-5 days of gently removing paper from resin pour. ( resin eats through foam board. i decided to use foam board due to it being cheap and easy to manipulate. Also, it greatly pays to line your mold with parchment paper and packing tape. Dye the resin also greatly helps to judge whether the coils are flooded also. Power connection? i learned that i can acquire really awesome male / female connectors for the line outs. I wont even show my second stator. its le miserable!.

Actually, look above. Thats number two. This is number trois.

Wire management. My next stator REQUIRES a major rethink so i avoid having wires sticking out the surface....So i am taking proactive measurements and training my coil legs before they get joined.

I feel that i am going to make massive headway soon. My goals is to attain this level of craftsmanship soon.

And i found the bearings , the axle, the connectors , metal plates for rotors and 3d print the end plate. This has been the most satisfying hobby of my life to date. And , i found out that you can shrink them down and sell it as a drone motor or rc plane motor! . So i set out to build a little hand held wind turbine to power up a phone ( 5v 5w ) and got totally lost....

GreenTeam · « **Reply #30 on:** September 06, 2020, 07:11:34 AM »

okay! now i got it down i think....
6 coils 100 turns 0.6 mm
just about ready to install the power conextors , than glue the mold on.
And flood the coils with epoxy resin!.

The end plates that will bolt it all together have been designed and 3d printed. And the rectifier is half built by scratch also.

gsw999 · « **Reply #31 on:** September 08, 2020, 07:46:44 PM »

I am making a 12 volt stator for my turbine I have made a drill powered coil winder it works pretty well.

Makes very tight compact coils

https://youtu.be/CCble26azzk

GreenTeam · « **Reply #32 on:** September 09, 2020, 01:16:42 AM »

Quote from: gsw999 on September 08, 2020, 07:46:44 PM

I am making a 12 volt stator for my turbine I have made a drill powered coil winder it works pretty well.

Makes very tight compact coils

https://youtu.be/CCble26azzk

i dont have the room to do something like that. But, i found a coil winder that will work for any size i dream up. Best of all, it bolts down to my desk.

Behind it, is going to be a little spool holder for two to three spools at once fed through a home made wire straightner. Tomorrow, i am about 90-100 percent sure i am installing a taig micro lathe! To build a case for my DEAF generator ( DEELISHUS EPIC AXUAL FLUX ). If you are masochistic, you can make lamination stacks with metal, paper and nail polish. ...Anyways....this is a First build post ( technically my 3rd )
DEAF 1.0 revision 3

This generation model employs all the lessons learned from previous designs.
The bearings also have mounting hubs built into them also!

My two magnet rotors only need to have center found and drilled out to hold the axle. i used a black marker every forty five degrees and clear nail polish over the black lines, so they dont rub off.

i suspect if all goes well tonight, i just may have designed and built the infinite air turbine slayer .....

News:

Author Topic: First build (Read 5380 times)