Remote Living > Transportation
personal vehicle comment
Simen:
--- Quote from: jlsoaz on September 26, 2020, 07:33:31 PM ---
--- Quote from: SparWeb on September 15, 2020, 09:03:08 PM ---Battery temperature in Canada is an important part of the specification. [...]
--- End quote ---
Good to get this information, thx.
Important in Arizona too. Nissan Leaf, with its lack (as far as I know) of really good thermal management, was not an option.
--- End quote ---
Most of the Leaf sold here in Norway (there are a lot of them), come with a 'nordic' package, which includes thermal heating for the battery pack (and heated seats and heated steering wheel). It would be strange if the same package wasn't default in Canada and the northern US states?
Even my US-imported Leaf has it.
jlsoaz:
--- Quote from: Simen on September 27, 2020, 12:55:28 AM ---
--- Quote from: jlsoaz on September 26, 2020, 07:33:31 PM ---
--- Quote from: SparWeb on September 15, 2020, 09:03:08 PM ---Battery temperature in Canada is an important part of the specification. [...]
--- End quote ---
Good to get this information, thx.
Important in Arizona too. Nissan Leaf, with its lack (as far as I know) of really good thermal management, was not an option.
--- End quote ---
Most of the Leaf sold here in Norway (there are a lot of them), come with a 'nordic' package, which includes thermal heating for the battery pack (and heated seats and heated steering wheel). It would be strange if the same package wasn't default in Canada and the northern US states?
Even my US-imported Leaf has it.
--- End quote ---
Interesting, I'd like to see the answer to this. One big unanswered question in my mind is whether (or to what extent) Nissan is disrespecting Mexicans and other hot-climate citizens who are buying the Leaf. Nissan already discovered that the gen1 Leaf was really unacceptable in terms of battery degradation in hot climates and I think they kind of hid their heads in the sand on this issue in the successive efforts. Finally it looks like they will include better thermal management on the upcoming Ariya, but what about those Leafs that are still being deployed in the very hot climates?
At the same time, this issue of performance in cold weather, while not as part of my personal concern, has its own bucket of concerns.
SparWeb:
Hi Simen,
Your experience driving an EV in winter in Norway is about as close as I can get to reliable testimony. Anything you can tell me will be valuable.
Traction
Braking
Handling
Hill-climbing
Torque-steer
The list is very very long...
I'm not sure what's in the Leaf battery, but I can't see much thermal control either hot or cold. Each battery cell is a "cake pan" sized metal box with only 2 electrodes and a third electrode that I can't identify. No visible data cable connector, no internal temperature probe, and most certainly no fluid connections for circulating a fluid for heat distribution. The Chevy Volt and all Teslas have a much more advanced thermal management, and it seems to be essential to operate an EV in my climate.
I might guess what's installed in your Leaf's nordic package, but it looks like just an air space heater. If you know better than me (you probably do) then a pointer to more technical information would be enjoyed greatly. Far too often I am presented with the "california" specifications for all cars (this isn't just an EV beef - every car sold in Canada is optimized for California).
In another manner of challenging your assumptions, it is not possible for me to walk into a Nissan dealership and get helpful answers about the Leaf. I have tried. Nobody there knows anything. I've had the same experience with a Chevrolet dealership. So I am very frustrated by this - I can't get up close and personal with these things to understand what any of them are about, without going to greater much lengths than I would normally do to get acquainted with a regular gasoline car before buying. If I want to test drive a Leaf, the dealership has to order one from another city transported on a truck to my city.
To remove another point of potential confusion about what I mean about winter: space heaters and seat heaters are 2nd-priority issues for winter operation of an electric vehicle, not 1st priority. First priority is: can the car leave the driveway?
Simen:
--- Quote from: SparWeb on September 27, 2020, 11:47:19 PM ---Hi Simen,
Your experience driving an EV in winter in Norway is about as close as I can get to reliable testimony. Anything you can tell me will be valuable.
--- End quote ---
I'll do my best... ;)
First, i'll answer your points in short;
Traction - I have old, partly worn winter tires, so i won't brag, but with the anti-spin in combination with the Eco mode, there's rarely any uncontrolled slipping. The last few hilly kilometers up to my cabin, i usually use chains on the tires in snowy conditions, and i can manage up to 6-7 inches of snow in the road before coming to a halt... :)
Braking - There are 3 'modes' of regen braking on my Leaf; very light regen with Eco mode off, better regen in Eco Mode, and significant regen braking when the Drive mode are set in 'Brake' ((I've seen up to 35 kW regen) Mostly used on long downhill roads, but can be used actively to avoid touching the brake pedal at all). On snowy/icy downhills, i avoid the 'brake' mode completely, and i usually turn off Eco mode...
Oh, i forgot; the ABS kicks in pretty early, and works very fast/actively. :)
Handling - The car is well balanced, so i experience no over or under steering
Hill-climbing - With 107 Hp and a torque of 187 i've never experienced any problems at all (the newest leaf have 147 Hp and a torque of 236). Though, hills uses much more power than on the plain...
Torque-steer - If you slam the speed in, and turn the steering wheel (as to change a lane) at the same time, you will probably slip, due to the instant torque of the electric motor - even at 55 mph... But i haven't experienced any steering due to acceleration, if that's what you mean...
--- Quote ---I'm not sure what's in the Leaf battery, but I can't see much thermal control either hot or cold. Each battery cell is a "cake pan" sized metal box with only 2 electrodes and a third electrode that I can't identify. No visible data cable connector, no internal temperature probe, and most certainly no fluid connections for circulating a fluid for heat distribution. The Chevy Volt and all Teslas have a much more advanced thermal management, and it seems to be essential to operate an EV in my climate.
I might guess what's installed in your Leaf's nordic package, but it looks like just an air space heater. If you know better than me (you probably do) then a pointer to more technical information would be enjoyed greatly. Far too often I am presented with the "california" specifications for all cars (this isn't just an EV beef - every car sold in Canada is optimized for California).
--- End quote ---
First; each 'metal box' as you see them, are actually 2 cells in series, thus the third electrode. There are 3 temperature probes placed around the battery.
And the Nordic package - or the 'Cold Weather Pack' (CWS) as it's known elsewhere as i've just learned; consists of electric heated side mirrors, steering wheel, front and rear seats, and hot air ducts to the rear. in addition, from mid-2013 models, a heat pump became the standard, except on the base model.
Regarding thermal management of the battery; the only addition i know of that come with the Nordic package, are electric heat pads around the battery packs that kicks in if the temperature falls below minus 17 degrees Celsius. this is mostly to protect the cells during normal charge, i think. The computer regulates down the regen power, fast charge etc. in really cold (and hot?) temperatures.
--- Quote ---In another manner of challenging your assumptions, it is not possible for me to walk into a Nissan dealership and get helpful answers about the Leaf. I have tried. Nobody there knows anything. I've had the same experience with a Chevrolet dealership. So I am very frustrated by this - I can't get up close and personal with these things to understand what any of them are about, without going to greater much lengths than I would normally do to get acquainted with a regular gasoline car before buying. If I want to test drive a Leaf, the dealership has to order one from another city transported on a truck to my city.
--- End quote ---
That might be due to the US car industry/dealers attitude to electric cars in general? :)
--- Quote ---To remove another point of potential confusion about what I mean about winter: space heaters and seat heaters are 2nd-priority issues for winter operation of an electric vehicle, not 1st priority. First priority is: can the car leave the driveway?
--- End quote ---
Yes. :)
At least, i have no problem. Of course, with below zero temps, maybe some sleet in the road, the driving range can fall up to a third compared to warmer weather... I usually get 7.5 km/kWh in the summer, and around 5-6 km/kWh during the winter...
For fun; here's a couple of years old winter test of the 5 most popular EV's in Norway (except Tesla)...
Edit;
I haven't found any proper documentation for you, but if i do, i'll post it here... ;)
SparWeb:
That's tremendous - thank you Simen!
In winter, there seems to be a 20-30% penalty to the range, across all of the cars tested. This is no surprise, but finally, somebody actually measured and compared! It doesn't seem to adversely affect the Leaf more than any of the others. The choice to Not pre-heat the cabins before some legs of the trip was very interesting.
A Tesla would have been an interesting contender in this lineup. The article does not explain why it was excluded, whether Tesla did not offer a vehicle, or the authors wanted to shine light on other options, or some other reason.
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