Reducing cost of magnet wire

[GreenTeam]

In my local store , .7 and thicker magnet wires are all about ten CAD. But, you only get as little as 63 feet! I found that i can buy 1560 ft or so of 0.15 mm wire. And wind about 32 or more together and it is equivelant to a 0.8 mm wire! . For ten cad!. And you get the benefit of a litz wire also. It combats the combat losses and a myriad of other benefits also.

[WindyOne]

What is the benefit of using Litz Wire in a Wind Turbine Coil ?
What does "... it combats the combat losses ..." mean ?
What are the myriad of other benefits ?

[Adriaan Kragten]

If I look at the photo, it seems that the wire isn't isolated. Such a wire can't be used to make a coil as there is a voltage difference in between each turn of a coil.

[GreenTeam]

If I look at the photo, it seems that the wire isn't isolated. Such a wire can't be used to make a coil as there is a voltage difference in between each turn of a coil.

lol...Ill just ignore that...

The benefit of using litz in a axial flux is generally nothing, unless its coreless.
Than it combats copper losses that are similiar to eddy current or iron core losses.


And BTW Adrian the wire in the photo is ALL ISOLATED seeming its made all from enamelled magnet wire, which last I checked, is ALWAYS insulated.
Not sure if your just trolling most of the time or what lol....But many of your statements has made even me scratch my head

[Adriaan Kragten]

If I look at the photo, it seems that the wire isn't isolated. Such a wire can't be used to make a coil as there is a voltage difference in between each turn of a coil.

lol...Ill just ignore that...


Not sure if your just trolling most of the time or what lol....But many of your statements has made even me scratch my head

You should be careful in what you are writing. This remark will make that I will never react to one of your posts.

[bigrockcandymountain]

1560÷32= 49'

Am i missing something? Seems like you get less length than with the .8mm for the same money. I don't think litz wire has much benefit if any in this application.

I'll admit i had to look up what litz wire was and until i did, i was pretty sure your wire was uninsulated too. 

Adriaan doesn't have english for a 1st language so sometimes his replies seem abrupt.  Hopefully you two can sort things out.  He has a huge amount of experience that is very valuable to someone building their first project.

Cheers
Derek

[DamonHD]

Hi,

I have to second that.  Adriaan is the oppostite of trolling, and has a fantastic set of knowledge to share.  Please be kind and courteous.

Rgds

Damon

[GreenTeam]

Im sorry, but the fact that enamelled magnet wire is used for litz wire construction also means that every strand is already isolated from each other.
If they werent, than how exactly do you expect to have your copper coils work as many turns? By above posters ideation, than no one here makes multu turn coils.
Your just making one big fat copper ring.
Im not really into debating this all day long, its finely constructed.
Im just LOL at the idea that you have to further insulate litz.
And, if you did isolate each and every strand? How exactly do you intend to join say a 125 Strand 0.10 MM litz?

I can referance oodles and oodles of Masters Thesis Papers that show using Litz in a coreless design improves performance due to copper losses.

Now, most peoples quite often outsource their creation of a litz due to weaving, but, that is maybe weaving in a Fibonacci frame. But, just twisting it is quite sufficent.
And than IT MAY be wrapped with teflon or maybe a fine strand of thread. Is this the isolation you speak of? Because its not for isolation, its for the delicate nature of the Litz cable and
the oodles of very fine wires contained in it. Any simple google search will return many kinds of litz. Some Flat, some made from square magnet wires. Some made from multimples of twisted strands. And that is how Litz is isolated. Sorry, but, thats just the way it is. There is nothing about isolating the 125 or even a thousand strands from each other. That would totally make a wire
as fat as Knight Street Bridge lol. It would make a one turn coil lol.

Litz under a microscope  http://www.encyclopedia-magnetica.com/doku.php/file/litz_wire_microscope_1_magnetica.jpg
various litz wires http://www.encyclopedia-magnetica.com/doku.php/file/litz_wires_magnetica.jpg
By nature of magnet wire, every strand is already isolated from each other.
Hence my head scratch.

[Adriaan Kragten]

Im sorry,

Okay, let's forget this quarrel but although English isn't my first language, I very well know the meaning of the word trolling.

[Mary B]

Litz works for RF applications because RF flows on the surface of the wire, DC doesn't so you see little to no gain using it and it is more fragile and the coils in a turbine vibrate... even when encapsulated there is micro movement that would eventually cause litz wire to go open circuit

Im sorry, but the fact that enamelled magnet wire is used for litz wire construction also means that every strand is already isolated from each other.
If they werent, than how exactly do you expect to have your copper coils work as many turns? By above posters ideation, than no one here makes multu turn coils.
Your just making one big fat copper ring.
Im not really into debating this all day long, its finely constructed.
Im just LOL at the idea that you have to further insulate litz.
And, if you did isolate each and every strand? How exactly do you intend to join say a 125 Strand 0.10 MM litz?

I can referance oodles and oodles of Masters Thesis Papers that show using Litz in a coreless design improves performance due to copper losses.

Now, most peoples quite often outsource their creation of a litz due to weaving, but, that is maybe weaving in a Fibonacci frame. But, just twisting it is quite sufficent.
And than IT MAY be wrapped with teflon or maybe a fine strand of thread. Is this the isolation you speak of? Because its not for isolation, its for the delicate nature of the Litz cable and
the oodles of very fine wires contained in it. Any simple google search will return many kinds of litz. Some Flat, some made from square magnet wires. Some made from multimples of twisted strands. And that is how Litz is isolated. Sorry, but, thats just the way it is. There is nothing about isolating the 125 or even a thousand strands from each other. That would totally make a wire
as fat as Knight Street Bridge lol. It would make a one turn coil lol.

Litz under a microscope  http://www.encyclopedia-magnetica.com/doku.php/file/litz_wire_microscope_1_magnetica.jpg
various litz wires http://www.encyclopedia-magnetica.com/doku.php/file/litz_wires_magnetica.jpg
By nature of magnet wire, every strand is already isolated from each other.
Hence my head scratch.

[Bruce S]

Another type of coils done by more  'mills builders here called them "in-hand" windings.
Chris-O, The Dans , Tom W, even the Greats like Flux, Otzules and Ghurd and the VAWT guru Ed_Lentz  , did things like 2 in-hand (Flux at one time had posted how to mathematically know what a multi-strand windings would be.

Perhaps these posts would assist in getting the idea of getting back to multi-strand windings.

Bruce S

[GreenTeam]

Yes, there are online calculators that figure out what the amount of AWG is by how many strands you have.
The using of litz in a turbine is quite a controversial topic I guess lol.
Next one ill start will be about halbach arrays - joking

[Bruce S]

I'm not too sure about litz windings being controversial.

I'm thinking more that, there was a language barrier, what one would've thought to be funny , might not have come across to another.
This is possibly one of those times when people being able to see/hear facial expressions could've quickly been able to "see" the difference.
Unfortunately, it's hard to "see" using text based information.

Anyway , onward right  . I'm still reading and researching this type.

Cheers
Bruce S

 

[GreenTeam]

Yes I agree. The net is another powerfully disruptive tech that can blow up in our face. Anyho 
The reason I came to look up litz is one youtube video that starts with polka music. He does the most amazing winding with home made litz. And from that , using Google, I come across many many designs and they are all core less. The major advantage is for me is cost mainly. I find the spools of teensy gauge much more affordable. And on to my next great sliced bread I dicovered  a halbach array. The designs I found that use litz sometimes also  have halbach arrays. They are referred as fully core less and yokeless axial flux magnetic machines. So I myself am severely cost limited and space constrained. Basically my workshop is beside my bed and that means my other half forbids me to run a micro lathe. Or to make an hho generator to cut metal with. Or make a diy arc welder out of microwave transformers. Something about metal shavings in bed and the cookie crumbs was bad enough as it was. So I am researching every avenue I can . And that means that have to figure out a way to build sans metals. Hence 3d printing. And no metal on my rotors caused massive headaches. Well last night I finally did it. I 3d printed a rotor that is so stiff I cannot bend it at all. And I had to increase the strength of it with what I have on hand. So I created a 16 magnet rotor and printed in it slots  to slide in magnets rotated 90 degrees. It's a halbach array!!! And it's freaky strong. And the other side? Couldnot pick up a paper clip. The N S magnets I believe are N42 25x10x3mm and the really thin ones in between are 20x10x2.5mm.  it's all very exciting stuff really. Who knew with this entire shut down and stuck at home I would be able to develop a product in six months to bring to market.
So far my only concerns now is the attractive force of two of these rotors is going to need some serious engineering to be keep them gapped. I have no idea how much stronger they are now , but glide a magnet over it and it almost jumps off my table!

[Bruce S]

GT;
while looking at the magnet lay out I noticed there are a few magnets that are broken or have the covering nicked and such.
Are these magnets NEOs? IF so you'll want to get some kinda of covering on the bare spots. NEOs as you may already know can and will begin to tarnish and if the nickle platting begins to sliver , these bad boys will slice through even sun-dried skin (boy did I find out the hard way!)
On the ones I had outside they showed a type of rust and the nickle-platting slivered and became a very sharp blade waiting for the unsuspecting .
I started covering any of mine with bearing grease (it's what I have).
The engineering the keep the coil away from the mags is usually built into the stator with stainless steel(or something similar that will not react to the magnetic fields) all-thread being used as the standoffs usually about 4.

Hope this helps

Bruce S
 

[GreenTeam]

Mmm no I did not know that about neo magnets. Thank you . I was only aware of the degradation of them through exposure to the elements. Or a hard bang. I used to usually coat them with clear nail polish , but I'm all out now. Would glue work?
A thin coat of watered down gorilla glue is what I am thinking of doing now. But, i do have to be quite carefull as some chems will eat away the pla parts that im using.

[Bruce S]

Clear nail polish will work, better if you use the nail hardener.
Have not tried watered down gorilla glue, but since the one I use tends to expand might not be a good idea.
You basically want to cover the exposed parts, but if any of the nickel is beginning to "peel" using super-glue (I buy the cheap-O at dollar store) to get it sealed back down so your air-gap isn't compromised. Once dried to the nail hardener to seal everything.
I have a couple mags I did this to as a test for weather hardening off. Works, BUT I do not have them on a 'mill yet.
Again, I use even the cheap-O nail hardener from the dollar store, OR snag the 1/2 used ones from the cabinet  .

Hope this helps

Bruce S

[WindyOne]

In my local store , .7 and thicker magnet wires are all about ten CAD. But, you only get as little as 63 feet! I found that i can buy 1560 ft or so of 0.15 mm wire. And wind about 32 or more together and it is equivelant to a 0.8 mm wire! . For ten cad!

Above is your initial message regarding "cost".
And the title of this thread states ... "Reducing cost of magnet wire"

But after reading Reply #5 by bigrockcandymountain
it appears that 32 x 0.15 mm wire is actually more expensive than 0.7mm wire ...
Cost for 0.70mm wire is $0.158 CAD / foot = $10 CAD / 63 feet
Cost for 0.15mm wire is $0.205 CAD / foot = $10 CAD / ( 1560 feet / 32 in-hand )

There does not appear to be any cost reduction for 32 wires in-hand.
In fact, 32 wires in-hand appears to be 30% more expensive.

But then, in your reply #13, you again claim "more affordable"...

...
The major advantage is for me is cost mainly.
I find the spools of teensy gauge much more affordable.
...

How are you justifying your claim of "cost reduction" and "more affordable" ?

[GreenTeam]

Actually, to get an equivalent of 21 AWG from 30 AWG you dont use 32 wires.
That would net you a 15 AWG.
I beleive it is more like 8 wires twisted to get 21 AWG

https://www.wirebarn.com/Combined-Wire-Gauge-Calculator_ep_42.html

So with this logic, buying a spool of 21 AWG for 11.5 here in BC ( bring cash ) plus 15 pc tax

Or buy a 30 AWG for the same price and get 1/2 LB and twist up 8 strands into one
and return 196 feet......

Still save a ton of cash