Motorbike stator winding done wrong?

[JW]

I changed the post count temp, looking for a old post.

[TechAdmin]

Hi Flavio

https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,150320.msg1054920.html#msg1054920

I see two burned out coils there.

Here, this was the older one and obviously shorted. Newer one isn't much different design-wise, just obviously... Not burnt

[SparWeb]

Hi Flavio,
Yes, now that you have pointed it out, I can find the little diode symbol in the photo. 
Please only test diodes with the diode test setting.  You have it on your meter, so use it.
All of the tests you've done with the resistance setting are useless because a Digital Meter will not measure resistance through a diode.

The kawasaki meter was an analog meter.  It can get a reading through a diode but not because it's a real value, the needle just moves.
If you have been thinking that you can use the instructions from the Kawasaki manual without using the same meter, then no.  You have to use the same type of meter to get the same type of results.
I know I know, there's enough BS in many instruction manuals that it could convince you that all these manuals are BS, but actually, in this case, you can't swap the testing tool and get the same result.

[TechAdmin]

Right, thank you again. I followed your instructions to the letter, here's the result:

I don't know what kind of *10 those values are, but I do know that the forward direct current to test it is about 1mA, and direct reverse voltage is about 3V (from the tester manual).
The unexpected values are marked with a (!) in the table, there's... A lot of them by the looks of it, so this surely looks badly blown up in multiple and interesting ways. I'm very curious as to how the heck it worked for a few seconds...

[mab]

not sure i should stick my oar in at this point - i don't know much about motorbike regulators - but my reading of your results (without expectations) are:

W1, W2, W3: the three phase inputs
Bk, W4: bridge rectifier outputs to battery (but i don't know which is which as i don't know which way round you were connecting the probes)

Bk/G: gives the same results as W3 - possibly shorted? you've put dashes for the W3:Bk/G tests:- does that mean a result of 0.000? If not that then what does your '-' mean for these tests?

[TechAdmin]

not sure i should stick my oar in at this point - i don't know much about motorbike regulators - but my reading of your results (without expectations) are:

Your input is appreciated nonetheless, don't worry I don't know much about them either To me it's just some kind of magic box that can turn fluctuating AC into DC somehow.
You can find the expectations a few posts above: https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,150320.msg1055063.html#msg1055063

W1, W2, W3: the three phase inputs
Bk, W4: bridge rectifier outputs to battery (but i don't know which is which as i don't know which way round you were connecting the probes)

Correct, I can't remember either but I did plug them correctly, lol.

Bk/G: gives the same results as W3 - possibly shorted? you've put dashes for the W3:Bk/G tests:- does that mean a result of 0.000? If not that then what does your '-' mean for these tests?

Also correct, "-" means 0, as in closed/shorted. And now that you mention it, yes, those results are indeed identical and very much likely indicate a short right there.

Btw funny note, I noticed and fixed a bit of an issue with images display on mobile, now they'll take up all available space without forcing a scrollbar. Upon clicking, you will be able to zoom if necessary Token of appreciation for your help so far

[SparWeb]

Hi Flavio,
(Boy I can sure sound grouchy when I haven't had enough sleep.  You're a saint for putting up with my crusty answers.)

Looking at your results... at first I thought, no match... then I started wondering...

Compare this:




To this:




I flipped and turned it a little.  Now your axes still match in both ways, but this time with reversed polarity. 

The values a not the same, but the "meaning" of the values are similar.  If you equate "4" from the kawasaki meter to "400" from yours, then they all match perfectly.  Right down to the 2X higher value between BK and W4.

This allows me to focus my attention to the ONLY difference that seems to matter:  BK/G to W3
That could be a line shorted to the casing. 

Do you have a few spare parts like 12V lights?

You could hook up a test circuit with a light and a battery, that would flash the light from - to +.  The light should stay off when the leads are reversed.  If the light comes on anyway when reversed using BK and W3 then you'd have your final answer.

[TechAdmin]

Hi Flavio,
(Boy I can sure sound grouchy when I haven't had enough sleep.  You're a saint for putting up with my crusty answers.)

lol np, you're still being very patient with someone with not even half your knowledge, I must respect that

Looking at your results... at first I thought, no match... then I started wondering...

Compare this:

(Attachment Link)


To this:

(Attachment Link)


I flipped and turned it a little.  Now your axes still match in both ways, but this time with reversed polarity. 

The values a not the same, but the "meaning" of the values are similar.  If you equate "4" from the kawasaki meter to "400" from yours, then they all match perfectly.  Right down to the 2X higher value between BK/G and W4

That's... Astonishing, but with the exception of W3 and BK/G that are shorted, and it's probably where it's actually broken :thinking:
Still, not sure why the tests are flipped, I tested them exactly as it says, and tester specifies the positive/negative so...

[TechAdmin]

Ok assuming I followed you correctly... I had a PSU around instead of the battery, regardless I can extract 12V from there, so that replaced the battery.

Negative cable to W3, exiting BK/G, going to LEDs (with positive plugged normally), LEDs powered on.
Negative cable to BK/G, exiting W3, going to LEDs (with positive plugged normally), LEDs powered on.
Positive cable to W3, exiting BK/G, going to LEDs (with negative plugged normally), LEDs powered on.
Positive cable to BK/G, exiting W3, going to LEDs (with negative plugged normally), LEDs powered on.

So I guess... Blown 100%, unless I've misunderstood what you were asking me to do.

Then the real question is... Why did it not work with the other regulator though? Can they be incompatible somehow with the stator and its coils?
And why were my tests flipped? I've done everything according to manuals Maybe that mighty Kawasaki tool has reversed polarity? Because for once I am 100% positive I did not screw that up, instructions are clear and easy.

I would *guess* that the reason it worked for a bit is that it was like almost shorted, and it was sort of "hanging on", but then it gave way to full contact and failed entirely. That would explain at least one thing out of this mess...

[SparWeb]

I agree, you have isolated the problem.  The SCR is shorted.
It would also be convincing if you did the same test on, for example, W1 and Bk/G, and got different results.

And why were my tests flipped?

I have tried to point this out already, but one more try, by analogy: You are using a computer to do a test designed to be carried out with a pocket calculator.  You would be crazy to expect the tool to give you the same results.  The two instruments are NOT the same.  The differences can be ignored if you have something like a resistor to test.  The differences are MAGNIFIED if you have a diode to test.

[JW]

Where I showed the image of the burnt out coils explains to me that the source of the burnout SCR's is called for that. If it were me I would replace the BOTH the stator and module. then Inspect the wire harness between the two for a short..

[TechAdmin]

I agree, you have isolated the problem.  The SCR is shorted.
It would also be convincing if you did the same test on, for example, W1 and Bk/G, and got different results.

I got exactly opposite results, LEDs always off. Same for W2 and BK/G.

And why were my tests flipped?

I have tried to point this out already, but one more try, by analogy: You are using a computer to do a test designed to be carried out with a pocket calculator.  You would be crazy to expect the tool to give you the same results.  The two instruments are NOT the same.  The differences can be ignored if you have something like a resistor to test.  The differences are MAGNIFIED if you have a diode to test.

...damn, I can be thick-headed sometimes Thanks, I understand now, slowly but surely

Why did it not work with the other regulator though? Can they be incompatible somehow with the stator and its coils?

What about this though? These items are *quite* expensive, and the original one (the burnt one) is even more expensive despite being garbage tier kind of quality... It's a super common issue with this bike so I wanted to avoid the original, but at the same time I don't want to buy another one that doesn't work again.

Where I showed the image of the burnt out coils explains to me that the source of the burnout SCR's is called for that. If it were me I would replace the BOTH the stator and module. then Inspect the wire harness between the two for a short..

Wires are fine, I built them myself specifically for this purpose, they even have dedicated plugs.

[JW]

I got exactly opposite results, LEDs always off.

When you did this you observed polarity right, Cathode and Anode. diodes and SCRS LEDs are for DC reasons. At some point the Magneto will come into play.

I use square waves and had to use Mosfets.

[TechAdmin]

Well I was trying to get either positive or negative through the rectifier but it wouldn't do anything...

Anyways, I was thinking about mosfets, but given the fact that if it blows up it can let the current to go through the bike electronics and fry them, I quickly discarded that option. So maybe... https://www.ebay.it/itm/383699733446 ? Original one costs literally twice that, it's ridiculous.

[JW]

Ok here is what I'm bringing up. For now.



We need to look at MaryB's schematic with the 3 phase SCR diagram that shows the magneto gate (is that right) 3 phase dia.

[TechAdmin]

Don't worry about my LEDs, it's a LED strip and I know how the plug works. The center bit is positive, the outside is negative.

[JW]

Anyways, I was thinking about mosfets, but given the fact that if it blows up it can let the current to go through the bike electronics and fry them, I quickly discarded that option.

Here is a 600amp mosfet array there are 9 hockey pucks.



What was wrong about replacing the stator and the module?

[TechAdmin]

Here is a 600amp mosfet array there are 9 hockey pucks.

...hockey pucks?

What was wrong about replacing the stator and the module?

Stator well I simply thought it wasn't working properly given that I didn't know the rectifier was broken as well. Then I replaced the rectifier with a Shindengen 775AA and that wouldn't charge the battery either, but that's shown in one of the videos as perfectly working, which is why I asked a few times WHY that can be the case... How can it be somehow incompatible with my setup? 775AA is used for waterbikes and/or competitions usually...

[JW]

which is why I asked a few times WHY that can be the case...

Mostly because its proprietary

What your describing is some sort of hybrid spark and alternator system. 

Maybe this will help



Your dealing with two separate circuits. One is triggering gates on the SCR's to allow the magneto to give spark. The same SCR's are using anode and cathode in a rectifier bridge to charge the battery.

[TechAdmin]

I "kind of" understand how it works, but I still fail to understand how one can be incompatible, given the principle is roughly similar... You got the spinning rotor, stator "making" current out of it because of the magnets, current converted to dc via rectifier.

I might buy the one I linked tomorrow, unless someone screams at me not to do that Really I don't want to buy the original garbage just to have it last the same as chinese copies. This model has been recalled for this part, so it's already its second and it only has 30000km, not even miles. That tells you everything how unbelievably bad this circuit is.

[mab]

I'm sticking my oar in again:

I doubt this is a combined magneto/alternator system - It looks like a simple alternator independent from the ignition system. In your 1st test video you are running the bike with the stator disconnected from the bike wiring which would support this view.

Looking at that Italian website you referenced, they first substituted an alternate shunt type regulator (5 wires connected 3 phase and +ve and -ve) for the original, and then went to a series type regulator (same connections).

If I've understood that website right and what you're trying to do, you're not using the BK/G connection anyway, just connecting W1,W2,W3 to the stator and W4 and BK to battery +ve and -ve correct? Is that how you had it connected when it worked for a moment?

[TechAdmin]

I doubt this is a combined magneto/alternator system - It looks like a simple alternator independent from the ignition system. In your 1st test video you are running the bike with the stator disconnected from the bike wiring which would support this view.

I thought this was pretty clear, yes. It doesn't have anything to do with the bike itself other than the rotor being powered by the engine, and it's like this for all bikes as far as I'm aware. It's an impressively old system, unfortunately nobody ever figured out a way to improve it, it's the same in competitions as well (although with probably lighter materials that live shorter).

Looking at that Italian website you referenced, they first substituted an alternate shunt type regulator (5 wires connected 3 phase and +ve and -ve) for the original, and then went to a series type regulator (same connections).

If I've understood that website right and what you're trying to do, you're not using the BK/G connection anyway, just connecting W1,W2,W3 to the stator and W4 and BK to battery +ve and -ve correct? Is that how you had it connected when it worked for a moment?

That is also correct because I believe the middle pin to be the ground so to speak (strongly supported by the fact it's "BK/G", with that "G" bit). I do have it on the "normal" bike cables, I simply bypassed them with direct cables to the battery to absolutely exclude a potential dispersion somewhere as a potential problems source.
Normal connection to the battery has a triple pin plug like the regular one from the stator.
To answer your question that is also a yes, you got everything perfectly right. I basically bypassed connecting ground for testing purposes.

[mab]

Actually, looking at the testing table of how it's supposed to test out,  I'd supposed that BK is Gnd (-ve earth on battery?), and that BK/G was probably a signal wire to either a charge warning lamp on the 'dash' or to the ECU for charging status. Does BK/G show continuity to the case of the regulator? If I'm right, then the reg should still charge the battery as long as the case isn't shorted to W3 & BK/G even though they're shorted together - although W3 being shorted to BK/G might indicate that the control circuit has failed and won't regulate the voltage.

It is possible the stator is still faulty: your test was voltage output only with no loading correct? It's possible that the overheating has caused poor connections that might not show up on an unloaded voltage test. I'd be tempted to get 3 old headlight bulbs (i.e. 12v 60w ish), wire them across the stator outputs and then see if they light up evenly (bear in mind you will blow them easily if you rev the engine - that's why i'd use old bulbs if i could find them).

[TechAdmin]

You can find the full diagram of the bike and that system on the manual I posted a few messages earlier: https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,150320.msg1055081.html#msg1055081
Page 565 (top right), it goes into 10A ECU fuse, then into main fuse 30A, always on BK/G cable. The BK goes to chassis main mass.

And yes it's unbelievably annoying to read that because it's on 2 pages! I had to print it myself, that's why I'm telling you where it goes or you'd waste half an hour trying to figure it out. My scanner isn't big enough to scan it :/

[mab]

Aha! a wiring diagram always helps

well my reading is that BK/G goes to relay 2 (headlight relay) - presumably to turn on the light when the engine is running.

so it should have still charged the battery even if BK/G was unconnected.If you had BK/G connected to ground (or if there's a short to ground in the connected bike wiring) then that could have caused the W3 to BK/G short we now see on the regulator.

[TechAdmin]

Yeah it is connected to headlights as well because they indeed don't work if the regulator is disconnected. That doesn't bother me as much as the battery not charging
The small position lights do work regardless so I'm not "invisible" so to speak.

so it should have still charged the battery even if BK/G was unconnected.If you had BK/G connected to ground (or if there's a short to ground in the connected bike wiring) then that could have caused the W3 to BK/G short we now see on the regulator.

As far as I know they were working fine before the regulator blew up, I don't have many ways to check now

To answer your question from earlier... BK/G is not shorted to the case. I checked all 6 pins and none of them is, in fact.

[mab]

Just re-read your original post:- it isn't the original burnt stator you're using as I'd thought? so it my thought that it needs a load-test is flawed - the stator's probably ok.

I'm guessing you're going to get another regulator anyway as this one has the W3 BK/G short? but it would be a shame to blow up another one. The question is: what caused the new reg to fail? You've already doubled up on W4 and BK wires so it's probably not them; so I'd be tempted to use the diode test between BK/G wire on the bike and chassis gnd (reg not connected): with the +ve test lead to BK/G I'd expect a reading >0.0v (diode+relay coil); with the -ve test lead to BK/G I'd expect open cct. With relay 2 unplugged (if practical) I'd expect open cct both ways of course.

[TechAdmin]

First off you are genius.
Now, that said, thank you so much... I will test this later today, it may very well be the case that something else blew up and plugging another regulator would blow it up the same way indeed. Relay box is not hard to reach at all, I can totally remove that one pin that leads to relay 2, so the BK/G that goes to that 6 pins plug at the bottom of page 564.
Although really... I hope it's not going to be the case, and that relay box will be fine... Everything works except for headlights and battery charging system when I power the bike up.

As for the other regulator I don't know because I did try it with just + and - cables in the video, bypassing that potential BK/G issue, and still wouldn't recharge, not even for a second. Guy who sold me told me it entered some kind of protection mode, but wouldn't know why. It may or may not be related, I don't have a clue

[TechAdmin]

Results as you expected but I'm unable to test with diode removed because the damn plug is INSANELY hard to remove, it's just made not to ever be removed...
Good news is that I can individually test the relay box to check whether it's fine or not.
We may be close, I'll go buy another regulator now, but won't try it until I've tested the relay box.

[TechAdmin]

Tested relay box as shown on page 689, it's all good I didn't test the ones where you got to plug a battery, because all of those systems work fine (starter, fuel pump, cooling fans). So I guess just chug a new regulator in, I couldn't go to buy it today because shop was unavailable, hopefully tomorrow.

...Wish me luck

[Mary B]

You can find the full diagram of the bike and that system on the manual I posted a few messages earlier: https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,150320.msg1055081.html#msg1055081
Page 565 (top right), it goes into 10A ECU fuse, then into main fuse 30A, always on BK/G cable. The BK goes to chassis main mass.

And yes it's unbelievably annoying to read that because it's on 2 pages! I had to print it myself, that's why I'm telling you where it goes or you'd waste half an hour trying to figure it out. My scanner isn't big enough to scan it :/

Cell phone picture then post that!

[TechAdmin]

Interesting, if I try to display it, it crashes the server...

Anyways, https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j3oZ0eSqycTbThh8a-j-6BTZQrlQENDk/view?usp=sharing
Although yes it's in Italian :/ Even though names are kinda understandable. Alternator/regulator on the top right, lower middle for relay.

[mab]

Oh, well, good luck! 

Although is some ways i'd be happier if you'd found a fault that would explain the reg failure - maybe it was a dud reg.