Author Topic: Suggestions for new 12V gels 200Ah+ UK? (Read 6519 times)

DamonHD · « **on:** May 02, 2021, 02:16:41 PM »

My current sorta gel 12V 400Ah set is 10 years old and down to a sliver of its original capacity.

The main controller is a Morningstar SunSaver SS-MPPT-15L with 550Wp of panels.

I think 200Ah ish makes sense for a replacement since I'm just not getting the input in winter for much more to make sense, other than possibly to avoid being charged too fast when the sun actually appears.

The only mandatory load is a couple of watts of Raspberry Pi server. If it's feeling flush it can take 12W of Internet router off-grid. Sometimes I run my laptop and other loads up to a 100W water heater, but only when there's lots of sun etc.

What UK suppliers and brands would anyone recommend?

Rgds

Damon

Scruff · « **Reply #1 on:** May 02, 2021, 04:46:44 PM »

Any particular reason you want gels? They're expensive and under-performing. If it's a safety thing AGMs are better and the same price.

You won't beat tayna.co.uk
Dare I say it but Victron's gels and AGMs aren't bad. I have a few it's about the only product of theirs I haven't found fault with.

Crown CR-220 with flow-rite watering kit is the best bang for buck below 2volt cells.

DamonHD · « **Reply #2 on:** May 02, 2021, 05:05:08 PM »

Gels for complete lack of maintenance and long shallow cycling life, and because that's what I've used up to now and tuned my power management code for.

Entirely happy to be talked into AGMs.

Thanks for the info!

Rgds

Damon

Scruff · « **Reply #3 on:** May 02, 2021, 05:15:41 PM »

Swings and roundabouts on gel verus AGM.

AGM are more abuse tolerant (forgiving if chargers aren't behaving) & better at high c-rates.
If you pamper Gels they'll live longer and be better at deep cycling but they die fast if there's a renegade charger.
AGM are generally cheaper due to demand economy.

Small yuasa from Japan are amazing. The big ones halfords are rebranding are pretty pi$$ poor (200 cycle).

I would consider golf carts with a watering kit maintenence free. You squeeze a pump twice a year and get double the cyclelife a liquid coolant system and double the lifespan for half the price.
You can also get more from your system with flooded because you can use higher C-rates of any type if you're into fast charging.
They also want a higher charging voltage which = more power, more energy.

AGM and Gels are more efficient but that just means shorter maintenence cycles.
To me every bubble I hear an AGM make is a valuable part of the chemistry I'll never get back. ...you can water AGMs..they live longer.

mab · « **Reply #4 on:** May 02, 2021, 05:46:55 PM »

I'd go for AGM's: i got mine (Yuasa endurance) 2nd hand in 2005? or maybe 2008 - i forget. they have bulged but haven't split or gone short. A few years back I followed Joestue's advice and watered them - and they're still going.

But i don't know what's available nowadays, or what's a good make or best avoided, or even if they're really AGM: I did see an 'AGM' for sale at a local hardware store that clearly had liquid electrolyte sloshing around inside when moved - so not absorbed in glass mat at all!

Scruff · « **Reply #5 on:** May 02, 2021, 05:57:20 PM »

AGM the noun (absorbed glass matt)
AGM the adjective (a good moniker)

Like saying li-ion = 8000k cycles....ahem..prove it..i dare ya.

SparWeb · « **Reply #6 on:** May 02, 2021, 08:53:13 PM »

Interesting to see the question you pose and Scruff's reply, just a day after I discover that there is a Victron distributor in western Canada, now.

It turns out that the majority of their equipment is produced with a North American variant.

Scruff · « **Reply #7 on:** May 02, 2021, 09:57:30 PM »

Quote from: Scruff on May 02, 2021, 04:46:44 PM

Dare I say it but Victron's gels and AGMs aren't bad. I have a few it's about the only product of theirs I haven't found fault with.

Adopted some neglected orphans and they work fine as well as having worked with them and not noticed capacity fade.

Quote from: Scruff on May 02, 2021, 04:46:44 PM

Crown CR-220 with flow-rite watering kit is the best bang for buck below 2volt cells.

I've been using them for 6 years and found they meet spec and haven't faded.
Never missed a beat as a liveaboard, while I do treat them well I also abuse them when it suits me.
They heart 14.8V for days on end. C2.5? Yurp been known to happen. Alternators and angle grinders.

Ahhh van life...I hadta run the engine for 2 hours while watching the breaking bad finale...

DamonHD · « **Reply #8 on:** May 03, 2021, 04:39:41 AM »

So, if I have understood right, this should hit the spot:

https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/victron/bat412201104/

Rgds

Damon

Scruff · « **Reply #9 on:** May 03, 2021, 10:47:40 AM »

I wouldn't say I've soak tested them but I have three in my powerplant of unknown providence and they are meeting spec. I recovered them from a corporate gig warehouse where they'd been abandoned for months maybe years.

I've a friend sporting 6 Victron AGMs in their boat and they've been lightly abused I would say (neglected) seem to be holding their own.

If that's a recommendation fair enough.

I was more angling that you can treat golf carts like rented donkeys and they come back asking for more and live twice as long unfortunately they're not posh.

If you want a truly amazing battery that will never die then go for firefly.

If you're shallow discharging then one firefly with 116Ah has more energy over ownership than a Victron 220Ah (you can really "abuse" firefly, 80% DOD is perfectly acceptable)

DamonHD · « **Reply #10 on:** May 03, 2021, 12:38:25 PM »

That looks very interesting, thanks again!

Rgds

Damon

Scruff · « **Reply #11 on:** May 03, 2021, 12:39:49 PM »

Just for comparisom here's the Victron graph:

I remember now what annoyed me about the product....the recommended charge parameters.

If one was to combine their ease of install over performance bias MO and their glossing over finer details as to make it simple looking for us simpletons to understand, then one might suggest they either don't know the correct charge parameters because they are too vague or they're not publishing the corresponding effects of different profiles.

In any case Victron don't make them, they're rebranded so it's a safer bet than usual.

Scruff · « **Reply #12 on:** May 03, 2021, 12:45:11 PM »

Redline is Crown CR-220 / Trojan T-105... (they duplicate the graph but Crown are heavier)

DamonHD · « **Reply #13 on:** May 03, 2021, 01:13:49 PM »

Hi,

I've put in an enquiry for Firefly. The site is a bit broken in a couple of aspects.

It looks at first glance like I could just put my SunSaver MPPT in AGM mode and all would be well!

(Oooo, I've already had a response from an email about the borkage: good for a bank holiday!)

I shall have to buy myself some new cables if I do this (M10 vs existing M8s)... But that will be the least of my worries!

Rgds

Damon

Scruff · « **Reply #14 on:** May 03, 2021, 01:56:07 PM »

They seem pretty on top of it alright. The website is a bit DIY.com alright. They used to sell on Amazon too. It's an American battery so extremely difficult to source this side of the pond.
I'd buy those over LFP every day of the week.

Shirley you can just change the eyelets or drill them out with a unibit (doesn't grab copper like a fluted bit).

The overly conservative "flooded" profile of the SS MPPT is the most suitable for those;

Disable EQ

I can send you a custom profile to load but you'll need an MS interface and a RS232 interface to load it for the sake of 100mV lower float voltage.

DamonHD · « **Reply #15 on:** May 03, 2021, 02:11:09 PM »

Ah, interesting, thanks! EQ off was one thing that I was wondering.

I have wired my RPi to talk MODBUS to the SS with a MODBUS library and some hand-crafted C++, so I *think* that I can tweak it to set parameters too. (Haven't done it yet, but it's just a Simple Matter of Coding, right? B^>) But for 100mV I'd rather not fiddle.

I also have to work out how to sensibly dispose of my existing LAs, since I've never actually changed out a set before. There's a first time for everything! Lots of learning for this task...

And then I'm humming and haaaaing about whether to go for two or the simplicity of one. Will keep me entertained for hours...

Many thanks again for your seasoned insights. You may shift me to the dark side of AGM after a mere 14 years-ish on gel.

Rgds

Damon

Scruff · « **Reply #16 on:** May 03, 2021, 02:56:10 PM »

Ah no probs.

A word on drilling out eyelets. It's frowned upon because it's reducing the CSA. However not all eyelets are made equal so You gotta make a judgement call on; Is the post drilled CSA on my modified lug going to be smaller than the scabbiest lug in the box?..if nay crack on, if yay change the lug.

I'd strongly advise using a remote temperature sensor with that controller to get the most outtov the system. It'll charge faster, less panel throttling and reach higher SOCs with the temp sensor as when as you'll have a healthier happier battery for it.

It's generally worth an extra 5% - 10% charge over the onboard one.

The problem with the onboard one is it's measuring the air temperature beside it's own heat-sink as opposed to the thermal mass of the lead lump that's been chillin' out all night and generally lives lower in the depths and darkness.

Quote from: DamonHD on May 03, 2021, 02:11:09 PM

Ah, interesting, thanks! EQ off was one thing that I was wondering.

If you could replace the electrolyte of an AGM they'd benefit from EQ..in light of that you can't manufacturers say "it's not necessary"

Quote from: DamonHD on May 03, 2021, 02:11:09 PM

I have wired my RPi to talk MODBUS to the SS with a MODBUS library and some hand-crafted C++, so I *think* that I can tweak it to set parameters too. (Haven't done it yet, but it's just a Simple Matter of Coding, right? B^>)

Ha...well I wrote a code that worked for me.
Go to work....earn €s
Buy interfaces
Plug and play.
Muscles are sometimes faster than brains for once-off tasks.

Quote from: DamonHD on May 03, 2021, 02:11:09 PM

But for 100mV I'd rather not fiddle.

Agreed, if it was absorption that'd be different, float...meh..

Quote from: DamonHD on May 03, 2021, 02:11:09 PM

I also have to work out how to sensibly dispose of my existing LAs, since I've never actually changed out a set before. There's a first time for everything! Lots of learning for this task...

A lottov sellers and garages will accept them for free. Some charge for handling.
They're worth €0.50 per kilo to the right merchant.

Quote from: DamonHD on May 03, 2021, 02:11:09 PM

And then I'm humming and haaaaing about whether to go for two or the simplicity of one. Will keep me entertained for hours...

If one's all you need then get one. If you want a bigger fuel tank get 2. Simples.
Probably the last battery you will buy for that application so if you're going for a duet then probably best commission it as a set rather than an add on later...not that it will make much difference other than paying for shipping twice.

DamonHD · « **Reply #17 on:** May 03, 2021, 03:06:00 PM »

I don't mind paying a few quid for a new set of cables if I may get a decade out of them.

It would be nice to keep things mega simple and just have the one battery, but I think the margin with two will make me more comfortable.

BTW, P&P is included in the Firefly price, so I could order a first, get the initial cabling right, then order a second soon after and get the cross-straps in place. Slow and steady...

I am already using an external temperature sensor with the SS MPPT.

I think I'll schedule an upgrade for (say) the end of summer, and let the current set soldier on a little longer while they don't have so much actual work to do!

Rgds

Damon

Scruff · « **Reply #18 on:** May 03, 2021, 03:10:50 PM »

I just noticed the SS MPPT default Temperature compensation rate doesn't match the Oasis recommendations.

Errrr...um....I would change that.

I'll post a profile later.

mab · « **Reply #19 on:** May 03, 2021, 03:15:17 PM »

Quote from: DamonHD on May 03, 2021, 02:11:09 PM

I also have to work out how to sensibly dispose of my existing LAs, since I've never actually changed out a set before. There's a first time for everything! Lots of learning for this task...

You local scrap metal dealer will usually pay for LA batteries of any sort, although the price of lead is not particularly high at the mo, it's usually worth the trip to the scrap man with them.

DamonHD · « **Reply #20 on:** May 03, 2021, 03:17:12 PM »

I will have to find a scrappy, since I've never used one before.

Also this is one of the few moments where owning a car might be a good thing! B^>

Rgds

Damon

Scruff · « **Reply #21 on:** May 03, 2021, 03:33:09 PM »

Attached file is the firefly profile for a Sunsaver MPPT with the jumper inserted. You can view and load it using MSview.

Change the extension from ".jpg" to ".mssppt" {edited to outwit the bots}

DamonHD · « **Reply #22 on:** May 03, 2021, 03:39:08 PM »

Ta!

(Does it matter what DIP switches 1 and 3 are set to once this profile is loaded?)

Damon

Scruff · « **Reply #23 on:** May 03, 2021, 03:49:22 PM »

Scruff · « **Reply #24 on:** May 03, 2021, 03:53:16 PM »

I often load two profiles and use an SPST switch instead of the jumper to make it a two-profile selectable controller. IIRC you can switch between profiles without resetting the controller.

Switch Open = Jumper removed.
Switch Closed = Jumper inserted.

It's just a ground bridge signaling to an internal transistor.

DamonHD · « **Reply #25 on:** May 03, 2021, 03:57:22 PM »

Woot!

Rgds

Damon

Scruff · « **Reply #26 on:** May 03, 2021, 04:21:39 PM »

Quote from: DamonHD on May 02, 2021, 02:16:41 PM

The main controller is a Morningstar SunSaver SS-MPPT-15L with 550Wp of panels.

275% oversized at 12volt?!

Er...buy two..24v! Even then you'll be clipping 3 hours most days...

DamonHD · « **Reply #27 on:** May 03, 2021, 04:49:32 PM »

Very deliberately oversized!

The primary aim is to get reasonable output in winter, and not mind about throwing excess away in summer.

And I haven't managed to generate as much in winter as I was hoping for. The location of the panels isn't great, and when next door decides to leave up a whopping big trampoline with safety net, unused, all winter, casting these panels in shade, still less so.

I think that we should overbuild grid-connected solar and wind 3x or 4x to minimise the times when we need storage and the size of what we do need. Practising what I preach here.

Or have I done something else stupid? B^>

I want to keep everything on 12V for simpllcity.

Rgds

Damon

Scruff · « **Reply #28 on:** May 03, 2021, 04:58:58 PM »

Not stupid just first impressions I thought you were 24v, then forgot about it.

Ideally, your 12v stuff oughta be on a DC-DC regulator regardless like a Meanwell DDR to prevent harm due to charging voltages. You can also automate load transfer of the wi-fi for instance with the Sunsaver load terminals and a SPDT relay with a flyback diode.

That really is a big array for a little sunsaver. I'd get a bigger/another controller and/or go 24v. Oversizing for the baseload is one thing but clipping when you could be utilising is another.

....hrmmm Perhaps I see a microinverter in your future triggered by the SS MPPT LVD terminals (parallel GTI enabled above 13.5V disabled below 13.0V for instance)

DamonHD · « **Reply #29 on:** September 02, 2021, 04:27:39 PM »

@Scruff

I took up the more conservative of your suggestions and a shiny new Victron 220Ah gel was delivered today:

https://www.earth.org.uk/battery-bank-replacement.html#2021-09-02

I hope to swap out the old bank for it tomorrow with the help of my burly neighbour (the new battery weighs 66kg)!

Rgds

Damon

DamonHD · « **Reply #30 on:** September 03, 2021, 10:19:37 AM »

New battery in place (with help, at 66kg!).

Seems fine, charging well from PV. Shall leave it a little while then move loads back to it.

Currently charging my MacBook from the system as a test.

Rgds

Damon

PaulJ · « **Reply #31 on:** September 03, 2021, 09:26:44 PM »

66kg, ouch! I still have not-so-fond memories of installing my 30kg T105RE's five years ago. Mind you, there were 16 of them...

DamonHD · « **Reply #32 on:** September 04, 2021, 05:11:26 AM »

The 4x old 99Ah batteries that I moved out were 28kg each. Being mostly a keyboard warrior a few muscles are sore today. I did treat myself to a few pints of muscle relaxant last night with a friend purely as a medical precaution...

Rgds

Damon

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Author Topic: Suggestions for new 12V gels 200Ah+ UK? (Read 6519 times)