Author Topic: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available  (Read 3612 times)

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Adriaan Kragten

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Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« on: May 25, 2021, 02:43:28 AM »
Report KD 718 can be copied for free from my website www.kdwindturbines.nl at the menu KD-reports. The title of this report is: "Ideas about a 16-pole, 3-phase permanent magnet generator using the housing and winding of a 4-pole asynchronous motor frame size 100".

This report describes a way how to modify a standard 4-pole, 3-phase asynchronous motor such that it can be used as a PM-generator for a wind turbine for 24 V or 48 V battery charging. Manufacture of the new armature is rather easy as the magnet grooves are wide and shallow. The magnet costs are low as only a rather small magnet volume is used. Mechanically the armature has sixteen poles but physically it has four poles and therefore it can work together with the standard winding of a 4-pole motor. The flow pattern is given in figure 2. The armature pole angel is 2.5° larger than twice the stator pole angle and the fluctuation of the sticking torque is therefore almost flattened. A front and a side view of the armature is given in figure 1 which I have added as an attachment.
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Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2021, 03:07:16 AM »
A new chapter 5 was added to report KD 718. The title of this chapter is: "Checking of the strength of the glue in between magnets and armature".

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2021, 06:34:22 AM »
A new chapter 6 has been added to report KD 718. The title of this chapter is: "Ideas about a bigger 16-pole PM-generator frame size 132".

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2021, 05:09:08 AM »
A new chapter 7 has been added to report KD 718. The title of this chapter is: "Ideas about a bigger 24-pole PM-generator using a 6-pole motor frame size 180L".

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2022, 09:49:55 AM »
A new chapter 8 has been added to report KD 718. The title of this new chapter is: "Ideas about a 30-pole PM-generator using a 6-pole motor frame size 100".
The advantage of using a 6-pole motor is that the armature volume is larger than for a 4-pole motor of the same frame size and stator length. The maximum torque level will therefore be larger too. The generator will have 180 preference positions per revolution which is also larger than the 144 preference positions for the 16-pole generator. So the fluctuation of the sticking torque will be flattened even more. The magnet orientation and the magnetic flux lines are given in figure 4 of KD 718. This figure is added as an attachment.

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Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2022, 05:50:27 AM »
Another new chapter is added to report KD 718. The title of this chapter 9 is: "Ideas about a 20-pole PM-generator using a 4-pole motor frame size 112". This alternative makes use of the same magnets size 40 * 15 * 5 mm as used for the original 16-pole generator.

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2022, 05:01:14 AM »
Another new chapter is added to report KD 718. The title of this chapter 10 is: "Ideas about a 30-pole PM-generator using a 6-pole motor frame size 160L". The magnets of this generator are even cheaper than the magnets of the 16-pole generator frame size 132M as described in chapter 6. The generator frame size 160L has a shaft end with a diameter of 42 mm and can therefore be used for a 3-bladed windmill rotor with a diameter of maximal 5 m. This report KD 718 contains now the description of six PM-generators with different frame size. For all generators, the original motor winding can be used. The fluctuation of the sticking torque is only little.

SparWeb

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2022, 12:05:25 AM »
Sorry I missed this when you first posted it.  I have often thought that if I were to carry out a conversion with re-winding of the stator, that I would multiply the poles on the rotor at the same time.
Can you walk me through the pole orientations on the rotors you have drawn?

As I look at a figure like the first one you posted (figure 1) or the new one from chapter 8, I see (for example in the upper-right quadrant) two or more N oriented magnets with an iron-only pole between them.  I would have expected that iron pole to be S oriented, not N.  Can you describe how you determined that?  By test?  Have you built a detailed model of this rotor to confirm that the field will develop as you expect it to?  (I think you say in your introduction that this hasn't been built or tested yet).
Perhaps my intuition is fooling me.

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Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2022, 05:59:51 AM »
Figure 1 out of KD 718 gives a side view of the armature and the stator winding. In this figure you can see that there are 36 stator slots and so 36 stator poles. The armature has eight grooves but the magnets are glued such that two adjacent grooves are filled with magnets with the north pole to the outside and two adjacent grooves are filled with magnets with the south poles to the outside. In between two magnetic poles there is an iron pole. This results in four mechanical poles for one magnetic pole. The magnetic flow pattern is given in figure 2 of KD 718. In this figure you can see that you get four magnet flow bundles of which two are rotating right hand and two are rotating left hand. Each flow bundle consists of two magnetic loops. Every magnetic loop is flowing through one pole formed by a magnet and one pole formed by the remaining iron of the armature. So this is the situation for an armature with sixteen mechanical poles used for a 4-pole stator winding laid in a stator with 36 slots.

Figure 4 of KD 718 describes the armature and the magnetic flow pattern for an armature with 30 mechanical poles used for a 6-pole stator winding laid in a stator with 36 slots. So you should not combine figure 4 with figure 1.

For all six options as described in KD 718, a special ratio is realised in between the number of mechanical armature poles and the number of stator poles. This ratio is 4 : 9, 5 : 9 or 5 : 6. The number of preference positions per revolution depends on this ratio and on the number of stator poles. It is rather high and this reduces the fluctuation on the sticking torque. The number of preference positions is much higher than for an armature for wich the number of mechanical armature poles is the same as the number of magnetic armature poles.

The advantage of all six options is that the original motor winding can be used (if the generated DC voltage after rectification matches with the chosen battery voltage). If you want to use the original motor winding, the number of magnetic armature poles must be equal to the pole number of the original asynchronous motor. So a 6-pole motor requires an armature with 6 magnetic poles but it can have more mechanical poles.

The armature given in figure 1 of KD 718 has 16 mechanical poles and you get 4 magnetic poles if the magnets are glued such as given in figure 1. However, if you would fill one groove with magnets with the north pole to the outside and the adjacent groove with magnets with the south pole to the outside, the armature will get 8 magnetic poles. If all eight grooves are filled with magnets with the north pole to the outside, the south poles will be formed by the iron poles and so the armature will have 16 magnetic poles. But an armature with 8 or 16 magnetic poles can't be used in combination with the original winding!
« Last Edit: December 13, 2022, 07:22:10 AM by Adriaan Kragten »

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2022, 01:02:53 PM »
I just realised that something isn't logic in figure 2 of KD 718. The mechanical poles are numbered right hand starting with a magnet pole. This results in an iron north pole N4 at the right side of magnet north pole N3 and in an iron south pole S8 at the left side of magnet north pole N1. But with the same right, it can be assumed that there is a north pole at the left side of magnet N1 and a south pole at the right side of magnet N3. This second option results in a similar magnet flow patteren but it is only rotated 22.5° left hand. The real magnet flow pattern for an armature without stator will lay somewhere in between both options. The real flow pattern is more difficult to describe and figure 2 is therefore maintained.

The real magnetic flow pattern in the stator iron also depends on the magnetic resistance. The magnetic flow lines will follow the path of least resistance which means that if the stator is saturated somewhere, a part of the flow will follow a different path and it may even be that the real flow pattern in the stator varies in between the two options.

The iron pole in between two magnet north poles will certainly be a north pole. The iron pole in between two magnetic south poles will certainly be a south pole. But the iron pole in between a north and a south pole can be a north pole, a south pole or partly a north and a south pole depending on the where the stator is saturated.

I will add a new chapter 11 to report KD 718 in which I explain the non logic aspect of figure 2.

joestue

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2022, 10:11:04 PM »

The iron pole in between two magnet north poles will certainly be a north pole.

No, it's a small air gap for flux to flow out of the stator and back into the rotor.
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Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2022, 04:47:03 AM »
The longer I think about this generator, the more I get the feeling that there is something fundamentally wrong with figure 2 of KD 718. So discussion about this subject on this forum helps to develop the idea. I now think that the magnetic flow goes directly from a magnetic north pole to a magnetic south pole. So only four instead of eight magnetic loops are coming out of the armature and the iron poles in between the magnet poles simply don't become magnetic at all. So the armature is much less stronger than expected. It might be possible to solve this problem but therefore I have to go back to the original idea about this 16-pole generator.

For the original idea, all sixteen poles had a row of magnets. So the poles N1, N2, N3 and N4 were a row magnets with the north pole to the outside and the poles S1, S2, S3 and S4 were a row of magnets with the south pole to the outside. For this construction, you get the magnetic flow lines as given in figure 2 but now every magnetic loop goes through two magnets. The calculation of the magnetic flux density in the air gap as given in chapter 3, shows that the magnetic flux in the air gap is very high, even if there is only one 5 mm thick magnet in a loop. So this is one of the reasons why I cancelled half of the magnets. But instead of cancelling half of the north poles and half of the south poles, I should have cancelled all four magnetic south poles. So if all four poles N1, N2, N3 and N4 contain a row of magnets, the magnetc flow is forced to go through the four iron south poles. This will give the same magnetic flow pattern as shown in figure 2.

Using only magnets for the north poles has some disadvantages. One is that the distance in between adjacent magnets becomes very small at the bottom of a magnet groove. So it might be necessary to use a larger frame size for the same magnet dimensions. Another is that now the magnets can be scratched if the armature is mounted in the stator. Having an iron pole in between each magnetic pole makes that the magnet can't touch the stator during mounting. I still have to find a methode to prevent scratching of the magnets during mounting if only the north poles have magnets. A 6-pole armature is less sensible to this problem as it will have three groups of south poles under 120°.

If there are 16 mechanical armature poles and 36 stator poles, there is a preference position every 2.5° and so there are 144 preference positions per revolution. This might be enough to flatten the fluctuation of the sticking torque such that the peak on the sticking torque is low enough. But it seems possible to double the number of preference positions if the group of four mechanical south poles is rotated 1.25° left or right hand with respect to the group of four magnetic north poles. The peak on the sticking torque caused by the north poles now doesn't coincide to the peak on the sticking torque caused by the south poles. The four south poles must have grooves in between the poles to make that a south pole also has a width of 15 mm.

As figure 2 for the 16-pole generator with frame size 100 is wrong, it means that the description of all five other frame sizes is wrong too and report KD 718 has to be reviewed completely. Frame size 112 wil be chosen instead of frame size 100. I will do this in the coming days and I will mention it on this forum when the old report is replaced by the new one. I still think that it is worth while to develop this idea because the standard motor winding can be used and because the total magnet costs are rather low for this big generator.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2022, 02:23:03 PM by Adriaan Kragten »

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2022, 03:27:36 PM »
Quote from: Adriaan Kragten
The longer I think about this generator, the more I get the feeling that there is something fundamentally wrong with figure 2 of KD 718.
   
To assist the reader-

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Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2022, 12:13:33 PM »
The new version of report KD 718 is ready and can be copied from my website. Now magnets are only used for the north poles. A picture of the magnetic flow is given in figure 2 which is copied as attachment. Now there is also a shift of 1.25° in between the pattern of the north poles and the south poles to increase the number of preference positions form 144 up to 288. All chapters about other frame sizes are cancelled.

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2022, 07:32:38 PM »
I still have my doubts.  Your updated figure has improved the situation, but I believe there is an unexpected nuance.

Joe said it very succinctly, the flux follows the shortest air gap.  Bearing that in mind, the illustration that portrays the flux passing from one magnet to its adjacent iron pole (N4 to S1) AND flux passing from another magnet around the other two poles and through a distant iron pole (N3 to S2) doesn't appear realistic.  You are basically expecting two magnet circuits to work in parallel, but one has more resistance as the other.  They will not pass the same flux - the intensity will drop off farther away from the magnets.  The field intensity at the iron pole closest to the magnet (S1) will be as high as it can be (perhaps up to saturation) distributing the remainder to the next iron pole.

For this reason, I expect the field intensity at S1 and S4 to be much higher than S2 and S3 when it crosses the air gap to the stator.  The field will not be uniform over these poles, either.  More of a "U" shaped graph.  This will be less pronounced over the N poles whose field intensity is "fixed" by the magnetic materials to a fairly uniform field crossing the air gap.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2022, 12:13:39 PM »
I still have my doubts.  Your updated figure has improved the situation, but I believe there is an unexpected nuance.

Joe said it very succinctly, the flux follows the shortest air gap.  Bearing that in mind, the illustration that portrays the flux passing from one magnet to its adjacent iron pole (N4 to S1) AND flux passing from another magnet around the other two poles and through a distant iron pole (N3 to S2) doesn't appear realistic.  You are basically expecting two magnet circuits to work in parallel, but one has more resistance as the other.  They will not pass the same flux - the intensity will drop off farther away from the magnets.  The field intensity at the iron pole closest to the magnet (S1) will be as high as it can be (perhaps up to saturation) distributing the remainder to the next iron pole.

For this reason, I expect the field intensity at S1 and S4 to be much higher than S2 and S3 when it crosses the air gap to the stator.  The field will not be uniform over these poles, either.  More of a "U" shaped graph.  This will be less pronounced over the N poles whose field intensity is "fixed" by the magnetic materials to a fairly uniform field crossing the air gap.

What you tell is true if the armature is not mounted in the stator. If there is no iron outside the armature, the magnetic flow will follow the part of least resistance and so most of the flow coming from north poles N3 and N4 will go through south pole S1 and most of the flow coming from north poles N2 and N1 will go through south pole S8 as this is the shortest way. But the flow pattern given in figure 2 is the flow pattern if the armature is mounted in the stator, only the stator is left away to simplify the picture. The magnetic loops are also described for this condition in chapter 3. The stator iron has a very low magnetic resistence (if it is not saturated) so a longer part doesn't mean a much stronger resistance compared to the resistance of the two air gaps and the magnet itself.

In chapter 3 it has been calculated that the flux density in the air gap is 1.02 T. However, this calculation is only right if the stator isn't saturated. In figure 1 it can be seen that one armature pole is about opposed to two stator poles. A stator pole is formed by the material of the spokes in between the stator slots. The stator slots have a tapered shape and the spokes therefore have a constant width of about 5 mm except for the end where the width is about 7 mm. The magnet has a width of 15 mm. So the magnetic flux is concentrated by a factor 15 / (2 * 5) = 1.5. So the magnetic flux in the stator spoke becomes 1.5 * 1.02 = 1.53 T. The stator iron is saturated at about 1.6 T and so the stator is just not saturated but close to saturation.

If all magnetic flow coming out of two north poles would go into one south pole, the calculated flux density in the spokes opposed to this south pole would be 2 * 1.53 = 3.06 T and the spokes would be strongly saturated. So the magnetic flow will take the path to the other south pole even if this path is longer. This calculation shows that the chosen magnet configuration is about optiomal and that it is useless to take thicker magnets as thicker magnets result in a higher flux density in the air gap and therefore in saturation of the stator at the spokes.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2022, 03:40:18 AM by Adriaan Kragten »

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2022, 03:51:52 AM »
A new chapter 6 is added to report KD 718. The title of this chapter is: "Use of a 4-pole motor frame size 132 and 28 magnets size 50 * 20 * 5 mm".

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2023, 04:50:34 AM »
A new chapter 7 has been added to public report KD 718. The title of this chapter is: "Use of a 4-pole motor frame size 100L and a 32-pole armature". The armature has 32 mechanical poles but 4 magnetic poles and can therefore be used in combination with the standard 3-phase winding of a 3 kW motor. The armature has 288 preference positions per revolution and the peak on the cogging torque will therefore be very low. I think that this is the simplest and cheapest way to modify an asynchronous motor into a PM-generator. The magnet costs are only about € 47. I have added a picture of this 32-pole armature as attachment.

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« Last Edit: May 04, 2023, 05:09:46 AM by Adriaan Kragten »

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2023, 03:38:40 AM »
A new chapter 8 has been added to report KD 718. The title of this chapter is: "Use of a 4-pole motor frame size 80 and a 28-pole armature". The stator of this frame size has 24 poles and is now combined with an armature with 28 mechanical poles resulting in 168 preference positions per revolution. This is less as for the 32-pole generator but I expect that the peak on the cogging torque is still low enough. The original 3-phase, 4-pole, 0.75 kW motor winding can be used. A picture of the armatutre is given in the attachment.

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Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2023, 05:21:20 AM »
A new chapter 9 has been added to report KD 718. The title of this new chapter is:  "Use of a 4-pole motor frame size 160L and a 40-pole armature". The armature has 40 mechanical poles but four magnetic poles. It can therefore be used in combination with the original 400/690 V, 3-phase winding. The armature has 360 preference positions per revolution and the peak on the cogging torque will therefore be very low. This generator can be used in combination with a windmill rotor with a maximum rotor diameter of 5 m. The magnet costs of this very big generator are only about € 160 which is very low fo a generator of this size. A drawing of this generator is added as an attachment.

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« Last Edit: May 31, 2023, 02:02:53 AM by Adriaan Kragten »

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2024, 06:14:19 AM »
A new chapter 10 has been added to public report KD 718. The title of this chapter is: "Use of a 4-pole motor frame size 112 and a 28-pole original armature". So the original short-circuit armature is maintained. Grooves are made in between the aluminium short-circuit bars and totally 84 neodymium magnets size 40 * 7 * 3 mm are glued into these grooves. The magnet costs are only € 52 which is very low for a PM-generator of this size. The grooves are inclined and the generator will therefore have almost no peak on the cogging torque. Figure 9 out of this report is added as attachment.
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Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2024, 07:43:42 AM »
Report KD 718 has been reviewed again. The old chapter 7 became chapter 6. The new chapter 7 now describes a 32-pole generator using the housing and winding of 4-pole asynchronous motor frame size 132M.

Bruce S

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2024, 08:40:21 AM »
The new chapter 7 now describes a 32-pole generator using the housing and winding of 4-pole asynchronous motor frame size 132M.
Adriaan;
132M !? maybe a mistype of AI auto-correct . My best guess is it was meant to be 132mm.
I could be wrong

Very nice update to the chapter otherwise!! I can easily see how the staggered magnets will help with the lowered cogging

Cheers
Bruce S
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bigrockcandymountain

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2024, 12:47:27 PM »
I'm pretty sure it's a Nema frame size 132M. 

Motor frame sizes lots of times have a letter suffix attached.  My 5hp is a 256U

213T is a common one for more modern motors. 

I read through this post from the start again.  I really love the progression of the thoughts and ideas.  In my opinion, it gets better with every new iteration.  I think i could pull off the machining on such a magnet rotor with just my lathe and shaper, plus a dividing head which i happen to have.

The magnet cost has become a way bigger issue, and the 3mm thick magnets are extremely helpful to keep that cost down. 

Reusing the original stator winding also keeps the cost down, and is a no brainer if it is intact.

My guess is that a complete generator for a 3m diameter turbine could be built for maybe $150 in magnets and whatever you can scrounge a motor for.  They are quite often almost free. 

I wish I needed another turbine.  I would be all over this.

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2024, 01:57:21 PM »
The new chapter 7 now describes a 32-pole generator using the housing and winding of 4-pole asynchronous motor frame size 132M.
Adriaan;
132M !? maybe a mistype of AI auto-correct . My best guess is it was meant to be 132mm.
I could be wrong

Very nice update to the chapter otherwise!! I can easily see how the staggered magnets will help with the lowered cogging

Cheers
Bruce S

Frame size 132 means that the distance from the heart of the shaft to the bottom of a foot B3 is 132 mm. For most European frame sizes, motors of a certain frame size are availble as small (S), medium (M) and large (L). The stator stamping has the same shape and the same inside diameter but a different lenght. So a motor frame size 132M has a medium length of the stator stamping. This length is 170 mm for the chosen motor.

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Report KD 718 about 16-pole PM-generator available
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2024, 02:43:48 PM »
I'm pretty sure it's a Nema frame size 132M. 

Motor frame sizes lots of times have a letter suffix attached.  My 5hp is a 256U

213T is a common one for more modern motors. 

I read through this post from the start again.  I really love the progression of the thoughts and ideas.  In my opinion, it gets better with every new iteration.  I think i could pull off the machining on such a magnet rotor with just my lathe and shaper, plus a dividing head which i happen to have.

The magnet cost has become a way bigger issue, and the 3mm thick magnets are extremely helpful to keep that cost down. 

Reusing the original stator winding also keeps the cost down, and is a no brainer if it is intact.

My guess is that a complete generator for a 3m diameter turbine could be built for maybe $150 in magnets and whatever you can scrounge a motor for.  They are quite often almost free. 

I wish I needed another turbine.  I would be all over this.

The magnet costs are very low for the magnets used in these generators. I even found that the costs of neodymium magnets have been reduced a lot during the last year. Not only chapter 6 and 7 were reviewed but I have used the February 2024 magnet costs in all other chapters of KD 718. The original 16-pole generator with magnets size 40 * 15 * 5 mm has magnet costs of about € 41. The 32-pole generator as described in chapter 6 has magnet costs of only about € 27 because the used magnets size 40 * 7 * 3 mm are relatively cheap. I expect that these two generators can be used for the 3-bladed VIRYA-3B3 rotor with a rotor diameter of 3 m and a design tip speed ratio of 6.5 (see report KD 484). The generator as described in chapter 7 has magnet costs of about € 70 because the used magnets size 40 * 10 * 5 mm are also relatively cheap. It is expected that this generator can be used for the 2-bladed VIRYA-4.2 rotor which has a rotor diameter of 4.2 m and a design tip speed ratio of 8.

Compared to my older VIRYA generators with inclined 10 mm wide magnet grooves in the armature and a stainless steel shaft, these new generators are also cheaper because the original motor shaft can be used. It might even be possible to reduce the diameter of the origional short-circuit armature and glue an iron pipe to it. So if the correct pipe is available, one doesn't need a heavy iron bar for the armature. If you compare the magnet costs of these generators to the magnet costs of axial flux generators with the same maximum torque level, axial flux generators are much more expensive. This is because you need thick magnets to get an acceptable flux density in the large air gap. An extra advantage of these generators is that the housing is fully closed and this protects the winding and the magnets against water and dust.