Author Topic: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.  (Read 13121 times)

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Mary B

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2021, 02:16:56 PM »
I don't think a pasta roller can handle the pressure, and widest you will find is around 10"

clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2021, 02:56:21 PM »
PLANTE battery components and equipment for a 240mm x 300mm x 700mm high, 550ah 2v CELL.

Everything is now here, so away i go with the physical construction.

The case can not be defined to exact dimensions until i have made the socks and stacked the plates together. This will then determine the inside dimensions with the socks on.

The 400gsm polythene non woven felt Geotextile is really porous for the acid solution. Polyethene is the same as polypropylene at handling 80% pure sulphuric acid.

14565-0


14565-1
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

SparWeb

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2021, 04:24:28 PM »
Eagerly waiting to see Bryan to pull up his socks!
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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Mary B

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2021, 02:01:37 PM »
What is that? 100 pounds of lead sheet?

clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2022, 02:43:01 AM »
Mary, Yes they are.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2022, 04:28:43 AM »
Plante battery, Roller, forming plates, Charge and discharge.


Now the holiday period is over and different parts of the family have returned to their respective Countries, i can now focus on this project, well sort off!

Okay a few photos of works that i looked at over the Holidays.

Firstly, here is a pic of my Electro Plating stuff, now i know most of you will say, 'what's that got to do with the PLANTE battery'?

14622-0

As you know we need to form the correct oxide on those lead plates surface, and to improve the surface lead area we are putting 0.5mm wide and 0.5mm deep grooves in the acting/facing surface.  This also holds the formed oxide in the chequer pattern we make with the grooves.   Ie, a modern method.

However, forming the oxide is a long process of minimum of 30 charge and discharges and reversing polarity before each charge of the battery, after 30 times we can then dictate what will be the positive and negative.
 
Now over the past 45 years, part of my designing and manufacturing specialised mechanical time pieces for a 300 year life, I electro plate all my brass internal mechanisms, this then protects the brass from corrosion and having to be constantly cleaned.
 
 So, my electro plating equipment is for items up to a 3-litre container size, and I plate in hard Gold, Silver and Rhodium.  Yes, i have all the chemicals to do this, but times voltage and amperage and temperature must be within certain parameters or the plating will have poor adhesive performance or not consistent.   Forming the Oxide on the lead plates is just the same, however written information on this forming process is minimal, so hopefully using my experience with electro plating I should be able to find a happy formula to form some good stable and well adhered Oxide on those lead plates.

 Remember we are turning that first 0.75mm thickness of the lead into mushy oxides. So I need to find a solution that ordinary folk out there can use when they are making their own PLANTE batteries.
CHARGING & DISCHARGING to Form the Oxides.
From my past experiences with simple PLANTE cells and the other limited information that I have I will use these figures to get a reasonable Charge and Discharge regime for forming the Oxides.

 Rated Amp hour capacity of our 2.22v cell for the PLANTE battery is defined roughly by surface area and weight of each POSITIVE PLATE ONLY in that cell.

Amp Hour rate.
So with our 6 POSITIVE plates of 210mm x 630mm and at 2.24mm thick, we need to know the plate weight and the surface area that we can form to get the amp hour.  The calculations are a little ‘wishy washy’ and will need confirming, however a rough guide for our plates for one 2.22v battery of 6 positive plates would be very approximate about, 550 amp hour size.

There are a lot of things happening.

Firstly, with a anode plate and a cathode plate, ie one lead plate and another plate facing each other this is called a single cell, the usable voltage of this cell will not exceed more than 2.3 volts, in practice its about 2.22volts.

Secondly, on bare lead when you first fill with acid solution the cell becomes live, the acid solution is fully charged. ie, its specific gravity is up at the appropriate levels this will change as the cell is discharged.  Normally its about 1.265 and during discharge it will drop to about 1.150 and the electrolyte will only be 17%. When recharged the battery will rise again to 36% electrolyte and about 1.265 again. As the battery gets old in the normal commercially made modern type batteries, the specific gravity will drop as the internal plates deteriorate and the useful amp hour rates also drop.
 For our PLANTE battery it’s the other way around. Our initial Amp Hour rate is not as good as a modern commercial battery, ie only about 1/3rd but over the many years it will be used the battery gets better until eventually all the lead plates internally are just a oxide paste. So we need to hold that oxide as long as we can, and not allow oxide residues to drop down under gravity and short out the cell within the battery itself. 

Thirdly, when first filled you will see that the PLANTE Cell is Bi- sexual, ie, put your voltmeter leads on each plate, then remove the leads and swap them around and hay presto it gives voltage the other way around as well.

CHARGING the PLANTE battery.

Okay so we need to form the correct oxides to form on the correct plates. So to form correctly for the best attributes for the oxide, we charge at 20% to 23% over the designated, designated voltage for each of our cells is 1.5v volt cell. And at 10% to 13% of the amperage of the calculated rated Amp hour capacity of that cell.
 So for our battery we will charge at 2.43volts and at 57amps.
Remember change the polarity for each of the 30 plus charges as you form the plates.

A designated 12 volt battery are normally 6off 2.22v voltage cells, with each 2.22v cell have about 7off 2,22v cells parallel connected to get the Amperage out put up of each 2.22 cells, these 6off are then connected in series to get a 12v battery that when new would give about 13.32volts.

14623-1

Photo below shows the hand roller materials being assembled.

WE MUST ENSURE that NO ferrous/Iron particles get embedded into the lead plates, this would be detrimental to the life of the battery. Hence every metal part of the tool is stainless steel or brass.

14624-2
 
Here I am using a simple hand tool, but had to reduce the roller from 55mm wide down to 20mm wide of acting roller as then the pressure required to push into the lead is not severe, at 55mm wide about 45kg was required in down force to operate in one pass. We only want one pass as over passing could mess up the surface so particles of lead could start falling from the lead plate when its in operation, and we do not want that.
 The roller itself is stainless steel with 0.5mm wide groove forming ridges and giving a 0.5mm depth with the grooves at 1mm spacings. The roller must be consistently made.

14625-3

I will probably fit a lead plate thumb screw guide arm and ski, so the roller can be guided precisely on each 20mm wide down the lead plate stroke.
The 5kg weight will sit on the roller tool and therefore give a constant pressure to the roller tool.
Its all a bit variable at present, but hopefully i can get the tool simplified and easier to make for normal folk.


Discharge rates for PLANTE battery plate oxide forming.

Each of the 30 times minimum charge and discharge should be the same rates to form the correct Oxide. And remember the polarity should be reversed on each charge.

On the 31st charge you will then make the positive palates positive from then on.

Discharge should be about 10% of the cell capacity in voltage and amperage.

So for our 2.22volt 550ah PLANTE battery thats,  discharged at about 2.442volts and at 55amps.

 
 
« Last Edit: January 10, 2022, 05:04:55 AM by clockmanFRA »
Everything is possible, just give me time.

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3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

Scruff

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2022, 04:10:15 PM »
 :-X

clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2022, 03:50:18 AM »
Hi Scruff,

I will start again.

You mentioned somewhere in your posts that you were experimenting with re-combining lead acid battery caps. How far have you got?

I have some Rolls re-combining caps/miser caps coming here, Ordered last year but got lost in the Global transport issues, and i want to take them apart and examine them. They are not that expensive from Rolls so will look see and make a judgement on making your own or buying in Rolls.

Also wanted to see there attachment method to the top of the battery and if i need to beef up our PLANTE battery lid to take a thread for them to fit into.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2022, 04:02:23 AM »
On each page of this topic,  MAKING LARGE LEAD ACID BATTERIES. i will put a disclaimer

DISCLAIMER.



NO liability is accepted by the author of this topic and future published book, for any damages of any kind, for the ideas, construction, operation, performance, or impact in respect of this post and books subject.

And..........

Safety.                              This is important and should never be underestimated.

I will make it clear about certain hazards where you will need to be careful. But in general I expect that you seek advice, or use caution, if you are unaware or not sufficiently skilled in a particular process.  Once completed these PLANTE batteries will handle high amperages, and these can be DANGEROUS!.
 
  Please also note that once fully assembled this PLANTE battery is very heavy, 60kg/ 132lbs, and could easily crush you.
 
 I will not fill this post with Safety Notices as it becomes unreadable.

Wear safety protective clothing where it helps safety, ie, grinding or cutting use eye protection and clothing that minimises fire risk and take care with the acid mix as Hydrogen is the resultant gases. HYDROGEN IS EXPLOSIVE.

  All workshop operations have a degree of danger if conducted in a haphazard or ignorant manner. Take care and learn how to use your tools correctly.


Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

Rob Beckers

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2022, 06:53:09 AM »
I have some Rolls re-combining caps/miser caps coming here, Ordered last year but got lost in the Global transport issues, and i want to take them apart and examine them. They are not that expensive from Rolls so will look see and make a judgement on making your own or buying in Rolls.

Also wanted to see there attachment method to the top of the battery and if i need to beef up our PLANTE battery lid to take a thread for them to fit into.

Clockman, the caps Rolls provides with their 5000-series batteries are re-branded WaterMiser caps. They are identical to those WaterMiser sells themselves, just a different colour (Rolls-Red). They don't actually "recombine" best I know. What they contain is lots of small plastic beads that the vapour is forced to pass through, and that scrubs the small droplets out, the small drops coalesce into larger drops and then back into the battery. They are cheap(er) because they don't contain any exotic metals that act as a catalyser in the actual/real recombining caps. From experience I can tell you they do work pretty well! I use them on a forklift battery that sees lots of charging/discharging.

FYI.

Following your Plante battery thread with great interest! Keep it coming please!  8)

-Rob-

Bruce S

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2022, 09:39:21 AM »
Rob;
These sound a lot like the "new" distillers that are using glass beads for better coalescing of vapors.
Those plastic beads must be pretty small.

B~
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clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2022, 09:58:14 AM »
Hi Rob,

And thanks for the tip about WATERMISER. I will have a look see.

Also thanks for looking inside and explaining what's going on, Thanks.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2022, 10:11:49 AM »
Bruce,

I trust you and your family had a gentle Christmas.

Still working on the 'Sheep Lecture Theatre' and its kitchen and WC and freezer room. But not long to go.

Need to get some ACETONE for the primer for that special adhesive that joins PVC sheets together.  If I can not get it here then some parts of my family will be here mid February, so i have prepared them a shopping list.

My eldest lad friend from California was here over Christmas, first time in Europe. I Collected from CDG Paris airport and returned only me as the COVID passport is enforced. Kept photographing my Speedo as shocked to find out that on French Motorways/Autoroutes you can travel at 130kmh that's about 83 mph, but 90mph is not a problem and the Police cant be bothered. As a US driver also shocked at the narrowness of carriageways on the roads and everyone hurtles along. And on the single lanes on the countryside roads the fact that we have to slow down to let each other pass was funny to watch facial expressions. haha

Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

Bruce S

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2022, 10:42:44 AM »
We did have a very nice Christmas gathering . Thank you for asking

I'm still laughing at what the expressions must've looked like!!

Being that Robin is used to my European style driving, she wasn't too surprised at the bus ride from airport to the villa in Provence, BUT those who had not ever experienced it was a sight to hear about.  >:D

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Scruff

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2022, 06:39:22 AM »

You mentioned somewhere in your posts that you were experimenting with re-combining lead acid battery caps. How far have you got?




+



=



/



****



 ::)



I have some Rolls re-combining caps/miser caps coming here, Ordered last year but got lost in the Global transport issues, and i want to take them apart and examine them. They are not that expensive from Rolls so will look see and make a judgement on making your own or buying in Rolls.

 ???

clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2022, 01:39:43 PM »
Thank you for that info.

Is that mastic up to coping with Acid?
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

Scruff

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2022, 08:53:39 PM »
Thank you for that info.

 ;D

Is that mastic up to coping with Acid?



... about WATERMISER. I will have a look see.

 :-\




Astro

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2022, 10:32:07 AM »
Thank you for that info.

Is that mastic up to coping with Acid?

 Do not take my word for it, but I do know that my brother had a brand new battery in a car and his wife hit a deer and cracked the battery. Instead of just tossing it, he used jb weld on it to see if it would work. It did. But again I would run your own tests before doing it.

Astro

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2022, 10:12:52 PM »
I also wanted to ask are you going to electroplate with a pb304 paste. I spent a lot of time with chemical engineers and helping them develop a chemical deburring process. I understand the elctroplating and even the deburring process, but they handled all the chemical mixture stuff. I took care of the power and building of the machine. But through some reading I was curious what you are going to use for a composition to plate with.
Thanks.

clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2022, 04:00:09 AM »
Astro,

No, this is a simple PLANTE cell battery but with a mechanical modern plate forming process to increase the paste forming process and surface area during the 30 times charge and discharge cycles.

More importantly what I am trying to do is keep the PLANTE battery as simple as possible for the ordinary man wherever on the Planet they might live. So all processes will be as simple as possible.

 So far only the Stainless steel groove roller will need supplying if you can not make it easily, but with that i am trying to keep the roller itself simple and then it will work with a hand tool.

I you are wondering why my postings have been silent so far this year? But sorry other projects have had to be accelerated up my priority list.

Especially as Europe goes into Turmoil, there is no handy sea or ocean between me and the latest Planet aggressor.

I have been supporting some Australians on a Renewable Forum in Aus, as they experiment with a simple Plante bare lead sheet cell.
 
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

Bruce S

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2022, 08:35:32 AM »
ClockmanFRA;
Good to see you are staying safe. This community based forum wishes you and all those across the pond safer days.
Post when you have time, but never feel compelled to. Safety is the 1st priority.

 Bruce S
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Astro

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2022, 01:47:18 PM »
Astro,

No, this is a simple PLANTE cell battery but with a mechanical modern plate forming process to increase the paste forming process and surface area during the 30 times charge and discharge cycles.

More importantly what I am trying to do is keep the PLANTE battery as simple as possible for the ordinary man wherever on the Planet they might live. So all processes will be as simple as possible.

 So far only the Stainless steel groove roller will need supplying if you can not make it easily, but with that i am trying to keep the roller itself simple and then it will work with a hand tool.

I you are wondering why my postings have been silent so far this year? But sorry other projects have had to be accelerated up my priority list.

Especially as Europe goes into Turmoil, there is no handy sea or ocean between me and the latest Planet aggressor.

I have been supporting some Australians on a Renewable Forum in Aus, as they experiment with a simple Plante bare lead sheet cell.

 I will have to read more about the plante battery so as to grasp it better. I understand that you have more important things to worry about.
I have rejoined a social media site and am trying to make sense out of what is going on in the world for some people. I have lot's of thoughts on the subject, but this is not the forum for expressing such thoughts. In the end, I think there is far to much corruption in the world. Every disagreement/war since almost the beginning of time comes down to corruption within the leadership or government and I am not unaware enough to think that anyone, any leadership or government is innocent of said corruption. I can't do much about your government or any other countries, but I can demand better from my own. that is where my focus on all that is going on in the world lies. You and yours stay safe, and take care.

SparWeb

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2022, 07:43:17 PM »
Probably best to stay away from the politics (here on FL it's a drag).  In general I don't like following dreadful subjects on social media and in fact, I've cut that out of my life as much as possible.
I know, it's hard to avoid when there are dire things happening out there.

Fieldlines is best when it's a refuge from that.  We build.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

Astro

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2022, 12:16:56 PM »
Probably best to stay away from the politics (here on FL it's a drag).  In general I don't like following dreadful subjects on social media and in fact, I've cut that out of my life as much as possible.
I know, it's hard to avoid when there are dire things happening out there.

Fieldlines is best when it's a refuge from that.  We build.

 I agree. I try to

dnix71

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2022, 06:37:14 PM »
https://physics.aps.org/story/v27/st2

clockmanFRA For a college grad in engineering like me, this web article is unintentionally funny. 70% of the storage capacity of lead acid batteries comes from relativistic effects on the S electrons because lead is such a massive atom. The 6s shell electrons must "orbit" much faster than they would if the nucleus was lighter and they spend more time close to the nucleus making the atom smaller and therefore more dense. The same contraction makes mercury a liquid at room temp.

What this means is that certain elements, like tin, are simply not the best candidates for storage batteries. The electrons in the outer s shell of lead are moving so fast that they gain relativistic mass and appear to be more powerful than the same electron in a lighter element. The modern lead-acid storage battery should be called the Plante-Faure-Einstein battery.

Lead is the heaviest stable element, and common, so even though is is toxic to most life if ingested, it won't go away as a good candidate for storage batteries.

Lithium's advantages are light weight and high primary cell voltage.

Mary B

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #58 on: March 10, 2022, 02:12:48 PM »
Pure lead is pretty inert even if swallowed, takes acid to start breaking it down. Many people who fought wars have lead shrapnel in them, blood PH tends to be basic so it doesn't dissolve. In birds the shot is either oxidized(lead oxide is VERY toxic) or they crush it to a fine enough powder in the crop that it gets dissolved by their digestive system. Acid rain can turn exposed lead shot to lead oxide, as can an acidic river or lake...

Astro

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #59 on: March 10, 2022, 03:35:55 PM »
Ok a quick question. I was reading where and it may have been mentioned in this thread, that you can expect about 1 AH per square inch of lead. I understand that is why the roller and grooves are important to try and maximize that number.  What I am unsure of is, you obviously are going to have 2 plates minimum and for home made 2 plates is the easiest. Those plates will have equal amount of square inches. I assume the 1 AH per square inch is from one plate, right?
 So say you had 100 square inch pos plate and 100 square inch neg plate for a total of 200 square inches. But that is a 100 ah battery, and not 200 ah, correct??
Sorry I know it is a dumb question, I just want to make sure I understand 100% because obviously it affects the numbers when figuring out what to build and the cost of what to build.
Thanks.

dnix71

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #60 on: March 10, 2022, 06:53:43 PM »
MaryB I worked for a printer that still had lead type casting equipment. The type was set up on a Heidleberg press to print on items that could not be offset press printed, like matches, stir sticks and napkins. We inhaled the fumes in the poorly vented shop and handled the type with our bare hands and no one I know got sick. BUT: we didn't taste it, and it wasn't organic lead, like the ethyl they used to boost gasoline octane here with. There are still many US cities that used lead potable water pipe that will leach lead if the water authority doesn't keep the pH just slightly basic. That was the problem Flint, Michigan had when switching to acidic river water as a source and then deciding not to spend the $50k a year to buffer the intake water (a trivial sum of money considering the population and the damage done).

Lead shot is an issue for the hunter who plans to eat what he kills, esp. smaller game like birds.

I am glad that tetra-ethyl lead is no longer added to motor fuel (except boat and small plane fuel). Adding ethanol makes money for corn farmers and keeps car engines clean without the damage methanol does to rubber seal.

Lead sheet is still used as a pan under showers and drains and in roofing. If you were looking for soft lead in long rolls in the US, you could go to a roofing or plumbing supply house. You can get different thickness without special order. https://marsmetal.com/sheet-lead/roofing-and-flashing/

Mary B

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #61 on: March 11, 2022, 12:52:13 PM »
Printers lead is hard stuff, if you used the individual letters it is very high in tin and antimony and is used a LOT by bullet casters to add tin to their lead to harden it.

Lead shot IS NOT a danger to hunters, if you bite down on one you know it instantly! It is also hardened lead so you are not going to chew it. Might break a tooth if you try! And a good cook looks for the pellets and works them out of the meat before preparing it. Birds shot with it have been tested, as have deer shot with lead bullets. NO lead found in the meat!

Bruce S

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2022, 01:58:57 PM »

Lead shot IS NOT a danger to hunters, if you bite down on one you know it instantly! It is also hardened lead so you are not going to chew it. Might break a tooth if you try! And a good cook looks for the pellets and works them out of the meat before preparing it. Birds shot with it have been tested, as have deer shot with lead bullets. NO lead found in the meat!

The same goes for squirrel meat.

Bruce S
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Astro

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #63 on: March 11, 2022, 03:37:31 PM »
Printers lead is hard stuff, if you used the individual letters it is very high in tin and antimony and is used a LOT by bullet casters to add tin to their lead to harden it.

Lead shot IS NOT a danger to hunters, if you bite down on one you know it instantly! It is also hardened lead so you are not going to chew it. Might break a tooth if you try! And a good cook looks for the pellets and works them out of the meat before preparing it. Birds shot with it have been tested, as have deer shot with lead bullets. NO lead found in the meat!

 Not to mention, nobody used to use a pair of pliers to crimp lead split shots when fishing, you just stuck it where where you wanted and bite down on it. Now idk if I would want to swallow lead, but to have it in your mouth for a few seconds can't be all that deadly or our fore fathers would have all died as children, just from hunting and fishing.

dnix71

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #64 on: March 13, 2022, 01:36:51 PM »
I've eaten both squirrel and rabbit I shot. Field dressed and fire roasted right there in the woods. But it didn't make a big part of my diet.
The lead we used for printing type had to have just the right amount of antimony. Too much and it wouldn't flow into the mold fully, and too little and the cast would be too soft to use. I had a coworker who complained to authorities that exposure made her sick, but the blood tests came back negative. The woman was obscenely overweight, that was her real problem.
We bought recycled lead locally for make up and after problems with the antimony content, had to specify the mix and pay more.
https://www.belmontmetals.com/antimonial-lead-offering-strength-flowability-and-resistance-in-metal-alloys/

clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #65 on: March 13, 2022, 01:45:49 PM »
Ok a quick question. I was reading where and it may have been mentioned in this thread, that you can expect about 1 AH per square inch of lead. I understand that is why the roller and grooves are important to try and maximize that number.  What I am unsure of is, you obviously are going to have 2 plates minimum and for home made 2 plates is the easiest. Those plates will have equal amount of square inches. I assume the 1 AH per square inch is from one plate, right?
 So say you had 100 square inch pos plate and 100 square inch neg plate for a total of 200 square inches. But that is a 100 ah battery, and not 200 ah, correct??
Sorry I know it is a dumb question, I just want to make sure I understand 100% because obviously it affects the numbers when figuring out what to build and the cost of what to build.
Thanks.

Okay, some where in my posts i have mentioned a rough figure per sq inch, but this depends on the original thickness of the lead that you are trying to turn the surface into lead oxide.

A cell, is for me in my calculations, when one lead sheet faces another lead sheet in a sulphuric acid mix of 15 parts water to 1 of 80% pure sulphuric acid. Obviously the lead plates will be double sided use, but the end plates will only need roller ribbing on one side.

And here is the crux of the matter and my experimentation procedures  The thicker the lead, the less capacity the lead cell will have. I think 'Dinix71 has eluded to this in his post on the 9th March. ie, the thinner the lead sheet the quicker the oxide can form, but then the life of the cell is short as a modern commercial battery, so hence me going for a 2.24mm thick lead sheet at first and seeing if i hit the sweet spot, although i may have to increase that thickness to double that, but wee will see.

The roller process adds 2 main objectives, yes the actual surface area that turns to oxide will be greater that just bare Lead sheet with out any indentations. Also the roller ribbing will allow the oxides to form in such away as to stop the oxide from just dropping away if the cell is disturbed.

 In general, with commercial batteries the grid matrix structure holds the oxides and a stiffener spacer is each side of each lead plate to hold the oxides as long as possible before the oxide crumbles away to the bottom of the batteries, hence the plates are wedged into the battery case.

The second objective of our roller processes is to strengthen the lead sheet by allowing a border around the outside of each lead sheet.

100ah could be for one cell, but a minimum of 6 cells joined in parallel to get the Ah rate higher, However 6 cells is best, any more and internal resistance starts to come into play with the figures, and with 6 cells its about the max i have designed the case to handle expansion from the cells.     We do not want the battery case just to split after a few years off use.

For the size I am making with a standard Plante design, and my calculations/ figures suggest about a 450ah with my 6 cells at 2v.  However, because of the roller being used i expect higher figures of Amp Hour, how high in real conditions has not been proven yet.

As you can now see there are lots of variable's at play here so I am using my mechanical engineering skills and that all important empirical evidence to push the Plante battery concept into the modern age.  And also give us a good all round LONG LIFE lead acid battery where weight is not a concern but resilience, longevity and cost effectiveness is..

I trust this helps.

Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
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