Author Topic: Use of an asynchronous motor as generator for a wind turbine (Part II)  (Read 3384 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Warpspeed

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
  • Country: au
Re: Use of an asynchronous motor as generator for a wind turbine (Part II)
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2022, 06:55:08 PM »
I really like your watt meter !
I have something very similar here, a British version (Cambridge) manufactured in 1949.  Ac volts, amps and watts 20Hz to 120 Hz.  A work of absolute precision engineering in its day, and would have been very expensive to buy new.
Its lost a bit of accuracy over the last 73 years, but it has occasionally been useful.

These days you can buy a microcontroller based digital power meter that does ac volts, amps, watts, frequency, and power factor, with peak hold, as well as accumulated Kwh for about fifteen dollars...

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: Use of an asynchronous motor as generator for a wind turbine (Part II)
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2022, 07:34:17 PM »
Yeah I have one of those too.  But I'm not actually sure it won't be giving me VAR, not Watts, when I want to know for sure it's actually Watts, so I didn't bother using it.
This wouldn't be a bad way to cross-check it though...!
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

MattM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1178
  • Country: us
Re: Use of an asynchronous motor as generator for a wind turbine (Part II)
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2022, 10:44:15 PM »
Are your calculations tracking stored capacitance?  It may drop your short term numbers but the gains from using capacitors should be evident over time.  The backshed experiments relied on factoring in time to see the payback.  Because they were gleaming energy that was previously unharvested, the difference was significant.  The cost-benefit was not probably there, but capacitors gteatly increase complexity so will never be a cheap mod.

joestue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1764
  • Country: 00
Re: Use of an asynchronous motor as generator for a wind turbine (Part II)
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2022, 11:18:10 PM »
Are your calculations tracking stored capacitance?  It may drop your short term numbers but the gains from using capacitors should be evident over time.  The backshed experiments relied on factoring in time to see the payback.  Because they were gleaming energy that was previously unharvested, the difference was significant.  The cost-benefit was not probably there, but capacitors gteatly increase complexity so will never be a cheap mod.

wasn't that a completely different situation?

there is a way to match the cubic curve by putting capacitors in series with the wind turbine.

you can also rig up a voltage doubler that will pump current into the battery above the half cut-in windspeed, and the capacitors won't be large enough to keep the turbine from stalling due to the cubic power curve. it would greatly stress the capacitors but perhaps that doesn't matter if you use motor run caps instead of electrolytics. -or just use a relay to disconnect them.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

Warpspeed

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
  • Country: au
Re: Use of an asynchronous motor as generator for a wind turbine (Part II)
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2022, 12:03:52 AM »
As I remember from long ago, the Back Shed version was a conventional three phase permanent magnet machine, with a voltage doubler type of circuit, using series capacitors and a few extra diodes.

What we are discussing here with this self excited alternator is an entirely different beast.
And a pretty wild and mysterious one too.

Warpspeed

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
  • Country: au
Re: Use of an asynchronous motor as generator for a wind turbine (Part II)
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2022, 12:28:30 AM »
My interest in all this is purely arm chair theoretical.
I live in a very snobby built up suburb with zero practical wind potential.
If I put up a small wind turbine here, I would have the local council, the police, probably a SWAT team in full riot gear and a TV news crew around here within hours.

I do day dream a lot though, and come up with some fairly unconventional ideas at times...

I think if I was going to do a wind turbine, it would probably be of the axial flux type, with high voltage windings going straight into a rectifier and high voltage electrolytic bank.  It would then use a buck regulator to drop the voltage back down to system voltage.

I would use the wind velocity output from an anemometer to access a lookup table in ROM.  The ROM would be programmed to run the buck regulator duty cycle to provide the exact optimum blade loading at each small increment of wind speed.

It would NOT be a feedback system chasing its tail.
As the wind speed fluctuated, the loading on the turbine would track pretty instantly. Gusts would see an almost instant increase in machine loading and electrical output, which would drop as soon as the gust has passed. No need to measure rpm or current or anything else.

Just a simple lookup table where X metres per second (input) = Y PWM duty cycle (output) for every small increment wind speed from zero on up.

Something like this may have application for a self excited alternator, where different capacitors are switched in depending on the available wind.
Loading could be pretty well controlled as well with a buck converter. It would be a lot of work finding the optimum combination for each zone of wind speed, but I believe its probably the only way a self excited alternator is going to be practical for a highly variable output wind turbine.

I don't wish to hijack this thread, but if anyone is even slightly interested in this feed forward control concept, I will begin a new thread.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2022, 12:47:47 AM by Warpspeed »

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: Use of an asynchronous motor as generator for a wind turbine (Part II)
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2022, 02:53:14 AM »
Warpspeed,
Please feel free to start a thread any time!

One of the driving factors for me, to explore this method of building the generator for a wind turbine, is the increasing price of magnets (well, everything, really).  I know myself I can splurge from time to time but the other side of this coin is the usefulness of WT's for people who DON'T have luxuries or much access to electricity to begin with.  I am lucky, I have choices and access to a lot of energy, so I get to play around.  Others aren't so lucky.  And I know I'm just a punter in this game.

Good things have come out of simply sharing ideas and testing them against reality.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

Warpspeed

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
  • Country: au
Re: Use of an asynchronous motor as generator for a wind turbine (Part II)
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2022, 05:27:34 AM »
Definitely agree on the sharing of ideas concept.
Its amazing how one persons seed idea can set off new and different trains of thought in other people, and the group end up with something that no one person might have come up with by themselves.

Another off beat Idea, is for the really small hydro guys.
Pelton wheels need substantial water pressure, as only one spoon is providing all the power at any one instant.
Francis turbines using a volute, can provide much more torque at far lower head pressure, because all of the blades are working together continuously all the way around.
The snail shaped volute and very complex compound curves of the turbine wheel need to be very precisely designed and that would be impossible to duplicate in a small size for any home fabrication.

But turbocharger manufacturers have over many decades developed extremely efficient exhaust turbines that work on exactly the same principal. All the geometry is exactly the same, but as water is just over 400 times as dense as air, we can generate a LOT more torque at vastly lower rpm with water flow.  The turbine and housings are made of corrosion free materials as well.

If you have low flow and low pressure, a very large turbocharger exhaust turbine off a large truck or earth moving machine might be worth experimenting with.  As far as I know its never been tried.

Its getting late here now, I will start a new thread on my ideas for matching a wind turbine to "system voltage" using a fast responding anemometer tomorrow.

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: Use of an asynchronous motor as generator for a wind turbine (Part II)
« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2022, 11:29:23 PM »
Yeah, man, you really need to start a new thread before you get me started with that one!
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: Use of an asynchronous motor as generator for a wind turbine (Part II)
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2022, 12:30:56 AM »
To anyone who has been thinking of using an induction motor as the generator instead of a permanent magnet generator (PMG), here is what I've learned:

• The project could be cheaper; especially if a used induction motor can be found (they are sometimes given away for free).
• The project won't require special tooling like a lathe to modify a motor, nor a mould to cast an epoxy stator.
• You will save the cost of permanent magnets, but the capacitors may cost almost as much.
• Low wind speed performance won't be good unless you use a lot of capacitors.
• You should test your system to make sure it's stable at full power.
• You should design protection against the induction generator going off-line in strong winds. Have a braking or furling system that can immediately shed the power coming to the rotor.
• Equip the bank of capacitors with a way to loose heat.
• Don't expect spectacular efficiency.

I suppose that doesn't make it sound easy.  Challenging may be a better word.  Let's also bear in mind that PM generators are more commonly in DIY projects, for good reasons.  Larger industrial turbines can use induction generators because large-scale projects have more regulatory constraints, and need more control and safety systems anyway, therefore the complexities that I've noted above are par for the course for Vestas and Siemens.

Below, I've attached a more detailed write-up of what I've done and what I observed.

* IG_vs_PMG_Sparweb__2022-04-11_.pdf (509.43 kB - downloaded 73 times.)
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

The Professor

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Question for Sparweb:
    Have you tried using a very low powered signal relay driving a power relay (motor start relay) to connect the load after the generator starts producing power, so that it can start unloaded?
Sorry if I missed this topic in your PDF download.
   Many years ago I built a turbine using a bendix washing machine motor with a built in  6:1 gear box using only the single phase run winding. It didnt have enough residual magnetism,  I  would have to momentarily zap it with a battery to get it generating.
    Also a hand cranked bench mounted 2 HP single phase motor. It was driven through a automobile starter ring and pinnion gear about 18:1 ratio, very noisy. I think I used a small relay to automatically conect  the load (a 4 in angle grinder) when it energised.
  Thanks
           

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Howdy,
I didn't consider this before - kind of an unstated assumption but I really didn't pay much attention to the load control aspects, even though I said there would be many.
Starting unloaded is preferred, I agree.  Triggering the load cut-in could be tricky because you need it to be very reliable.  Motor starters and their capacitors do fail from time to time, so you'd want to be cautious in your selection.  When the starter contacts on your drill press quit, you shrug and replace them later.  When the load contacts on a wind turbine quit, you may be close enough to see it blow up to pieces, but hopefully not so close that you're hit by the debris.

There is an example of a control system in this thread:
https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,150484.0.html

That thread is what actually inspired me to try this for myself.

The control circuits there would do much like what you suggest.  It's also a 2-stage switching circuit, with a set of op-amps for the sensing and a set of SSR's to switch the power.  Note how they are staged so that phase A comes on a bit before B, and C a bit later.  That's prevents a big surge when the phases switch on.  That's a phenomenon that I saw for myself, because I was switching all phases together.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca