Author Topic: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator  (Read 1697 times)

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brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2022, 08:11:01 AM »
I think the confusion is that we don't know what to make of the assembly you've made or drawn. 

Rather than push everyone to teach every detail, here's a short-cut.
Attached below is a white-paper that I wrote many years ago but it seems to capture the typical construction and principles that an axial-flux alternator uses to work.
I really want you to read it through because I spent a lot of time making it as readable and useful as possible for folks in EXACTLY your situation.
You're creative and motivated.  You just need some direction to make the physics come to life in your mind.

Second point: this is a DIY site.  That means do-it-yourself.  I'm telling you that this project needs some effort on your part to figure stuff out before insisting that others guide your hand.  That's no fun for us.

(Attachment Link)
I am under the firm believe that everything I have done so far I have done myself. So I am not sure what you mean with that I insist others holding my hand.
Read all I could read on the theory my self. Bought, paid, and assembled my own printers.
Learned how to model myself. Learned how to print myself.
Bought, paid the components like magnets and stuff,

Ohh I also blown up one printer my self ;( ugg that was a bit of a shameful moment in time ;(

What I do do though is ask a lot of questions to prevent me going completely derailed or end up doing something very dangerous.

So I would really like to learn how I still come across as someone that needs babysitting. I am here to learn so if you could elaborate and it makes sense then I am more than willing to adapt to better fit in here.

Nothing I said just now is meant with an angry tone. All still in good spirit.

SparWeb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2022, 09:38:10 AM »
Brandnewb,

That was taken in the right spirit.  There's just too much for it to work as spoon-feeding.
A lot of these questions you can answer yourself, once you get the picture.  Enjoy your reading.

Here is Joe's picture from yesterday.  In line and trimmed to size for convenience.
He's trying to figure out how to "fix" what you've made.  It's gonna be complicated.


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No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2022, 10:45:47 AM »
I am flattered that one is trying to 'fix' my arrangement.

May I please be involved with that thread?



brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2022, 10:47:10 AM »
I can better describe the actual arrangement I thin than the picture I have seen just now. If the goal is to see where this leads then I think my input in invaluable.

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2022, 11:38:28 AM »
ugg, it could be the classic' someone has an idea, and let's flame on it' while other more respected members run away with it. I hope this is not happening here

joestue

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2022, 02:24:30 PM »
Inserting triangle or trapezoidal wedges between radially magnetized magnets in order to make an axial flux machine is interesting. There is no reason it won't work, but it does have a problem.. how do you mechanically hold the disk together?

The drawing I made uses an outer ring as a flux carrier, with the central trapezoids surrounded on all 4 sides with magnets.

Alternatively you could use a stainless steel shaft with a dovetail key to hold the steel trapezoids. (Otherwise the shaft shorts out the steel pole pieces)
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2022, 02:26:54 PM »
as another example of that I am doing what I can to do it my self.
I have here an example of the superbly strong disk for magnets.
One can hang dinosaurs in the disk an it will still hold.
14882-0
Sure the top layer is not perfect but that I can easily solve.
The real challenge was to get lines to run from the sides of the magnet holders to the ramps.

It's like I said before. I am sharing all my work open source.

JW

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #73 on: June 18, 2022, 02:53:20 PM »
Just so everybody knows, this topic can be moved of the front page, I recommend logged in diary's   

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #74 on: June 18, 2022, 03:07:25 PM »
I am sure it was not meant like that but as a new comer to this forum it sure felt like something unpleasant.

without reasoning I am left to form my own conclusions and in a mind like mind it can go a lot of ways quite fast. ;(

JW

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #75 on: June 18, 2022, 03:17:29 PM »
All that's being said is, that its rude to bombard the front page with so many posts. If we move this topic to logged in area you guys can keep going on. If you what to do that its no problem

MagnetJuice

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #76 on: June 18, 2022, 03:20:12 PM »
I agree with moving this topic, this is not wind power.

Maybe we can create a section in Homebrewed Electricity called 3D Print Projects.

The interest in 3d printing is growing fast, as the technology is advancing and the cost of 3D printing decreases.

In the near future, if the materials for 3D printers can be made to withstand high temperatures, it could be possible to print a form to enclose the stator coils.

Just an idea.

Ed
What can I do TODAY that would make TOMORROW a better world?

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #77 on: June 18, 2022, 04:49:50 PM »
No please let's not block, split or move this topic just yet please

Let's wait until we find the definitive answer to
'I only wish I could have supported having a ferro holder for the mags is beneficial. I failed with an earlier attempt to demonstrate that so if anyone can think of an experiment to run I am more than glad to do it.'


SparWeb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #78 on: June 19, 2022, 02:04:55 AM »
brandnewb,
I think the move is appropriate.  This is experimentation for its own sake and that's OK.  This is where that stuff goes.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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electrondady1

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #79 on: June 19, 2022, 08:43:18 AM »
if your using an iron based material for that housing, i  think at least some of the  the flux coming off your mags is going to be absorbed by the housing.
placing the magnets on edge with like poles facing each other  will distort the magnetic field .  but will it be an  advantage?
 you did and experiment with iron filing but it was impossible from the photos to see the direction  of the flux path.


MattM

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #80 on: June 19, 2022, 11:59:02 AM »
I think his premise is new territory.  Pushing like charges together with a metal piece in between didn't produce the results for me that he sees.

https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,150481.msg1058046.html#msg1058046

I was only using steel bar.  He's using a much more complex joining piece between magnets.

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #81 on: June 19, 2022, 12:04:59 PM »
I will share my data regarding why I think I failed to demonstrate the benefit of a ferro holder.

14883-0

Since I see not proof of anything decremental I will plow through with powder then. In the hopes of finding something fringe.

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #82 on: June 19, 2022, 01:09:43 PM »
please understand that the data I present is non scientifically taken.

sometimes I was leaning, sometimes I was standing while I was measuring.

The quality of the device it self is highly debatable as well.

the values serve for me as indicators to guide what path follow

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #83 on: June 19, 2022, 01:37:53 PM »
I did figure though that I could hook up a Tesla meter with renowned quality (so probably not the one I currently have) to my 3d printer. And then move it around in all 3 axis with 0.1mm resolution.

Maybe that would help

Mary B

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #84 on: June 19, 2022, 02:00:01 PM »
ugg, it could be the classic' someone has an idea, and let's flame on it' while other more respected members run away with it. I hope this is not happening here

Te people here have been there done that and know what works. A LOT of very good minds here. Magnetic flux is going to follow the laws of physics... you can't make it go where it doesn't want to

Mary B

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #85 on: June 19, 2022, 02:02:15 PM »
I agree with moving this topic, this is not wind power.

Maybe we can create a section in Homebrewed Electricity called 3D Print Projects.

The interest in 3d printing is growing fast, as the technology is advancing and the cost of 3D printing decreases.

In the near future, if the materials for 3D printers can be made to withstand high temperatures, it could be possible to print a form to enclose the stator coils.

Just an idea.

Ed

Been done! Someone did a sectional stator that lets each coil be swapped out as needed. Flew for awhile, not sure of current status...

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #86 on: June 19, 2022, 02:05:45 PM »
again I am lost for words ;(

ugg, it could be the classic' someone has an idea, and let's flame on it' while other more respected members run away with it. I hope this is not happening here

Te people here have been there done that and know what works. A LOT of very good minds here. Magnetic flux is going to follow the laws of physics... you can't make it go where it doesn't want to
;) agreed

I am not sure though what the value is of the addition.

I'll admit thought that I just might have not have seen it yet because something I am doing wrong.

I for one am plowing through!! I'll admit when I hit a dead end and also share when I struck gold

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #87 on: June 19, 2022, 02:10:20 PM »

Been done! Someone did a sectional stator that lets each coil be swapped out as needed. Flew for awhile, not sure of current status...

I would really like to see data, however untrustworthy.

I am really working hard to gather that and am really distracted by any claims that are not supported.

Again I am still in good spirit but I am reaching a point in where I think I have done my share of sharing. If one does not believe then please demonstrate or not comment
« Last Edit: June 20, 2022, 12:41:03 AM by brandnewb »

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #88 on: June 19, 2022, 02:18:32 PM »
my last comment was not meant at magnetjuice.

But I do not know how to fix my error

EDIT: solved it
« Last Edit: June 20, 2022, 12:41:36 AM by brandnewb »

MattM

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #89 on: June 19, 2022, 08:00:17 PM »
You just delete the quote loop surrounded by MaryB's quote.

Did you understand my previous link?  I wonder how your experience is different than mine.  Perhaps the amgular offset gives you a different phenomenom.

SparWeb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #90 on: June 19, 2022, 08:32:19 PM »
as another example of that I am doing what I can to do it my self.
I have here an example of the superbly strong disk for magnets.
One can hang dinosaurs in the disk an it will still hold.
(Attachment Link)
Sure the top layer is not perfect but that I can easily solve.
The real challenge was to get lines to run from the sides of the magnet holders to the ramps.

It's like I said before. I am sharing all my work open source.

Can you describe a bit more about how you're making your parts?
Looks like laser sintering but I'm just guessing and reading back... I don't see specifics.  Curious about this.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #91 on: June 20, 2022, 12:40:23 AM »
as another example of that I am doing what I can to do it my self.
I have here an example of the superbly strong disk for magnets.
One can hang dinosaurs in the disk an it will still hold.
(Attachment Link)
Sure the top layer is not perfect but that I can easily solve.
The real challenge was to get lines to run from the sides of the magnet holders to the ramps.

It's like I said before. I am sharing all my work open source.

Can you describe a bit more about how you're making your parts?
Looks like laser sintering but I'm just guessing and reading back... I don't see specifics.  Curious about this.

i use a windows VM to run Sketchup 2017 to make 3D models. It's a now retired version of the program but at least it is free software and I have gotten quite accustomed to it using it. Newer free versions are only available as web versions and I do not like working in the cloud.

Then I export a selection of a model to an STL format.

I use Cura to import the STL and create gcode that the printer translates into printer settings and operations like layer height, print speed and temperature and all kinds of tweaks.

The filament material I am using now during prototyping is PLA. Later when I have confirmed that the disk can hold spinning at 240 rpm (4 x faster than it's designed rpm rating) with magnets inside I will print the disk using PLA that has iron powder in it and then fill the hollow structure with iron powder.

Given that there are many specialist types of filament nowadays I think the time has come to starting experimenting to see how it could benefit the field.

JW

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #92 on: June 20, 2022, 11:36:46 PM »
The thing I think is why have a magnet in its side. I think this configuration is counter indicated. There's a problem that he is getting lost about the trapezoid width surface since he has then on the side which would be only squared.   

A- you have this super high freg. since your not using the lateral space of the area over width/ space on the surface magnets .

The coil excitation would have such 7-coil aperture winch. I see that you have a good 3D cad. maybe we can count things out by showing models. 

   

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #93 on: June 22, 2022, 03:02:02 PM »
for those interested in initial results please see here
https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?topic=150598.new#new

The topic regarding a ferro magnet holder or not will go dormant for the time being until I have data regarding the actual generation difference between non ferro and ferro

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #94 on: July 12, 2022, 05:40:33 AM »
ok gang, I am back in again in my dairies mode. I yes have too much to share and and do not want to risk disrespecting this great community and it's guidelines.

Dairy mode on;

I tried FEMM again. boy ohh boy that is only meant for people that have already a good understanding of all the topics involved.

I for one am going to back out as I am just not made of that material yet and probably never will be if it's up to me.

I'll share one important life secret though for who ever finds my logs, after I am long gone, and reads this. It is better to not specialize too much. Focus on a wide spectrum of fields that are important to be self sufficient. And then try and find the people that do like to specialize.

Now I already know that there is a forum (like this) that does not reward that attitude. And that's OK.
This forum did however give me some tips and tricks so I think keeping the good folk here updated is important.

So that is whay I keep saying that all my work should be open source, hence me keeping this logbook.

For one, I am also diving into growing food.

Skills I have been focusing on in my younger years are still very much important, but just not when the bombs have dropped and we are all in survival mode.

The more, or rather the less less, I get to learn about magnetic fields. The more I am motivated to see by how much a repelling arrangement decreases performance as opposed to a traditional arrangement.

But given the woolyness of FEMM and the fact it is not being updated for a lot of years now I am kinda hoping for something fringe to happen.
On the other hand, science and physics are pretty well established already, even long before the end of the latest version of FEMM.

So I should be honest to myself and give nuance to the term wooly.
Wooly is the term I use when things get soo complicated that is becomes easy to distract others from what is actually going on, dare I say, even misguide them.


But my dear reader in the future, I have to remind my self that all I care about is to create something that everyone can do with little knowledge as to break this impasse we seem to be in.

I mean all turbines I have heard about in an urban setting have failed expect 2 (The A.D 2000 - 2015 era). (and even those tests where done not in an urban setting)

The montana and the skytream. Great products but other than the fact that the general public can't afford them and that least the skystream is already BUST, and that most local codes won't allow for it in urban settings I say the following.

If nobody commercial just wants to think towards something that is worthwhile and only cares about the next wind scam that makes this field so tainted. Please go find another field to piss in. I will no longer allow for it!! That is why I started my mission. For liberation of the common man efforts (or at least those that have to deal with the same local code constraints as I do).

Getting a huge wave of voters (yes that means you and I) to allow for better local codes is up to us. All we need is a united front in each of our respective areas.

What we need is brilliant minds that team up and design something that can actually be constructed by most of the general public. It is the people where I keep my personal writings that probably know more about it that even our own governments.

I already figured out this (in order);

* collect wind speed averages during a year in terms of metric units. If one can't afford a self bought weather station then one could consider something like windy.com, and find your nearest community station. (just do understand that this datum is probaly not as close to your specific location as you would need)
* see what one's local codes allows for in terms of diameter and size and what have we.
* if in turbulent conditions, just accept VAWT. If not then go straight to the good ones HAWT.
* use a calculator to see if your local codes and avg. wind speed can actually generate something worthwhile.
https://www.omnicalculator.com/ecology/wind-turbine
* if it does then I hope the readers of my rambling, should they ever find it are also interested in my other dairies.



« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 05:55:58 AM by brandnewb »

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #95 on: July 12, 2022, 06:13:40 AM »
The thing I think is why have a magnet in its side. I think this configuration is counter indicated. There's a problem that he is getting lost about the trapezoid width surface since he has then on the side which would be only squared.   

A- you have this super high freg. since your not using the lateral space of the area over width/ space on the surface magnets .

The coil excitation would have such 7-coil aperture winch. I see that you have a good 3D cad. maybe we can count things out by showing models. 

 
I'll try and summarize why I went the repelling route. (The magnets bar magnets on their side thing)

I used to have 96 traditional at diam 84 CM.

While being completely misguided I wanted like 400+ volts open circuit at 60 rpm. It became more of a prestige thing due to the nature of the forum I started out before here has not real experience with wind turbines.
So I was just trying to impress everyone there with how much power can I can get out of a spinning disk at 60 RPM.

But having a disk of that size will give all kinds of problems. So I thought of reducing it while still being able to "impress my friends"

So to make anything worthwhile of my (misguided) path is that I propose a contest.

------
Who knows the best way of arranging the magnets we have and winding the coils.

I am not even sure it is allowed on this forum and if it is not then please just remove my post regarding this.

Who ever wins. Get a price. ok only 100 $ but come on crew we need to safe humanity

Now I have learned here that this is not how one goes about things when designing wind turbines.
( come on gang, at least give me an A for effor in the misguide department ;) )


brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #96 on: July 12, 2022, 06:23:09 AM »

Can you describe a bit more about how you're making your parts?
Looks like laser sintering but I'm just guessing and reading back... I don't see specifics.  Curious about this.

Ok, I feel like the dumbest ass ever. which I am so it seems.

No SparWeb. I meant the following.

I am using the FDM, the easiest to get started with.

Do not get dishearten though. There will be many that tell you this is not leading anywhere.

Keep asking the skeptics why and how they reached that conclusion. After all FDM filaments are still in a state of evolution.

MattM

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #97 on: July 12, 2022, 07:49:23 AM »
You can make magnets going side to side do something, it just hasn't been demonstrated it is more efficient use of the magnets.  Even in the most optimal situation, in a Halbach array, it takes three magnets to get twice the output.  So the improvement just doesn't scale up to an advantage.  The effect also doesn't work well on a smaller scale because the like poles face each other at greater angles relative to a decrease in pairs.  As you move away from the perfect perpendicular angle, the power output drops off.  But there are a lot of ways to skin a cat.  Maybe you are tackling the issues in a new method.


Nobody is insinuating that you're not smart.  I think people are just struggling to see your premise.  So we wait and watch.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 08:11:37 AM by MattM »

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #98 on: July 12, 2022, 09:43:21 AM »
ok gang. I have gotten now the following.

235 millivols at 60 rpm at 1.9mm distance in a traditional setup.

that is indeed better than 177 in a repelling setup.

Shall I give up or keep looking into those corners one haven't looked at yet?

The difference, although not scientifically taken, is that there are so many ways to arrange magnets and did we try them all?.To my taste not enough to discard repelling just yet.

Think about the disk size for example. I for one am getting excited and my brain is already imagination all kinds of setups.

For now traditional does seem like more efficient in the most easy DIY setup. I'll try filling it with powder next and if that also does not not show anything fringe then I am back on track again.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 10:00:11 AM by brandnewb »