Author Topic: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator  (Read 1700 times)

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brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #99 on: July 12, 2022, 10:19:25 AM »
here is what I did to get there

14913-0

I think this tpic needs a whole lot of experimenting and not using FEMM. Sorry crew this stuff needs hands on ;)

MattM

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #100 on: July 12, 2022, 08:19:22 PM »
I tried to PM but the service wouldn't accept a jpg file.

Here's an idea that is unique.



After going through all the work to make the drawing, it dawned on me that you wouldn't need to angle the stator magnets, could fill the gaps with the windings between the magnets in the stator, and could double the magnets in each rotor for much better straight-line arrangements.

joestue

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #101 on: July 13, 2022, 07:10:18 PM »
You can make magnets going side to side do something, it just hasn't been demonstrated it is more efficient use of the magnets.  Even in the most optimal situation, in a Halbach array, it takes three magnets to get twice the output.  So the improvement just doesn't scale up to an advantage.  The effect also doesn't work well on a smaller scale because the like poles face each other at greater angles relative to a decrease in pairs.  As you move away from the perfect perpendicular angle, the power output drops off.  But there are a lot of ways to skin a cat.  Maybe you are tackling the issues in a new method.

Nobody is insinuating that you're not smart.  I think people are just struggling to see your premise.  So we wait and watch.

good explanation, but it actually takes 4 times as much magnet volume with an ideal halbach array in order to get twice the flux density in a given volume. this is because the energy stored in a magnetic field is proportional to the square of the flux value, multiplied by the volume.

so anyhow, this "new" method of using magnets oriented sideways to push the flux out the sides of the disk, only works if you have metal pole pieces between the magnets in order to conduct the flux out through the disk so there is no wasted air gap. and you need coils on both sides so you don't have wasted leakage flux on the other side of the magnet disk. the only reason i can imagine doing it this way is if you have a very high speed machine and want to use laminated pole pieces, and some kind of carbon fiber disk to keep it all from exploding.

without the metal, it is no different than locating the magnet further away from the coils.

some improvement could theoretically be made for a traditional axial flux machine if you use sideways orientated magnets to push more flux through the axially facing magnets. but, with the backing plate shorting out part of the magnet you added, there is little point to do this.
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MattM

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #102 on: July 13, 2022, 07:36:28 PM »
I figured that Halbach's require three magnets normally, not four.  But thete's no research I've seen exploring magnet edges.  Flux lines become directional in a Halbach arrangement.  I don't expect magnet edges to work any different than magnet sides when it comes to this effect.

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #103 on: January 29, 2024, 07:11:43 AM »
I am back here guys. thank you for all the support previously

I tried to PM but the service wouldn't accept a jpg file.

Here's an idea that is unique.

(Attachment Link)

After going through all the work to make the drawing, it dawned on me that you wouldn't need to angle the stator magnets, could fill the gaps with the windings between the magnets in the stator, and could double the magnets in each rotor for much better straight-line arrangements.

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #104 on: January 29, 2024, 07:13:17 AM »
in my tests an Hallbach array generates around 90% extra field strength for only 50% extra magnets.



15808-0

{1}now in order to stay compliant with my own rules I need to be able to demonstrate this claim. I will wait for someone to ask for that demonstration ok?{1}

You can make magnets going side to side do something, it just hasn't been demonstrated it is more efficient use of the magnets.  Even in the most optimal situation, in a Halbach array, it takes three magnets to get twice the output.  So the improvement just doesn't scale up to an advantage.  The effect also doesn't work well on a smaller scale because the like poles face each other at greater angles relative to a decrease in pairs.  As you move away from the perfect perpendicular angle, the power output drops off.  But there are a lot of ways to skin a cat.  Maybe you are tackling the issues in a new method.

Nobody is insinuating that you're not smart.  I think people are just struggling to see your premise.  So we wait and watch.

good explanation, but it actually takes 4 times as much magnet volume with an ideal halbach array in order to get twice the flux density in a given volume. this is because the energy stored in a magnetic field is proportional to the square of the flux value, multiplied by the volume.

so anyhow, this "new" method of using magnets oriented sideways to push the flux out the sides of the disk, only works if you have metal pole pieces between the magnets in order to conduct the flux out through the disk so there is no wasted air gap. and you need coils on both sides so you don't have wasted leakage flux on the other side of the magnet disk. the only reason i can imagine doing it this way is if you have a very high speed machine and want to use laminated pole pieces, and some kind of carbon fiber disk to keep it all from exploding.

without the metal, it is no different than locating the magnet further away from the coils.

some improvement could theoretically be made for a traditional axial flux machine if you use sideways orientated magnets to push more flux through the axially facing magnets. but, with the backing plate shorting out part of the magnet you added, there is little point to do this.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2024, 07:55:05 AM by brandnewb »

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #105 on: January 29, 2024, 07:25:16 AM »
The reason I am not adopting Hallbach yet is that I am still, how ever slowly, working towards the repelling magnet single rotor dual stator coil setup.

I want to give that idea a fair chance. And of course I will also make it known if this was indeed a dead end.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2024, 07:48:39 AM by brandnewb »

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #106 on: January 29, 2024, 08:10:22 AM »
brother!.

Lets explore your idea ok? I like the sound of unique!!

So in terms of magnets i think I can help with this proof of concept.
I can model and print the holders.

Are there any more aspects I need to be aware of?

I tried to PM but the service wouldn't accept a jpg file.

Here's an idea that is unique.

(Attachment Link)

After going through all the work to make the drawing, it dawned on me that you wouldn't need to angle the stator magnets, could fill the gaps with the windings between the magnets in the stator, and could double the magnets in each rotor for much better straight-line arrangements.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2024, 08:39:12 AM by brandnewb »

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #107 on: January 30, 2024, 05:24:43 AM »
ohh wow. I was totally wrong about Halbach only requiring 50% magnets.

I now think it is the same amount of magnets minus 1.

Well should this be indeed the case then it tells me that Hallbach is only useful when there are no other options.

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #108 on: January 30, 2024, 06:25:36 AM »
the top row and bottom row are out of phase yes? by intend I assume?

{1}ahh, optical illusions at play again{1}

I tried to PM but the service wouldn't accept a jpg file.

Here's an idea that is unique.

(Attachment Link)

After going through all the work to make the drawing, it dawned on me that you wouldn't need to angle the stator magnets, could fill the gaps with the windings between the magnets in the stator, and could double the magnets in each rotor for much better straight-line arrangements.

brandnewb

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Re: Theorectical benefit of ferro magnet holder for generator
« Reply #109 on: January 30, 2024, 06:29:16 AM »
I am so sorry Matt ;(

I can not really be sure your intend. Also now again I think there is no phase shifting. It is rather difficult to distill.