Author Topic: Wind Turbine Upgrade - 7.5 HP Conversion  (Read 3170 times)

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SparWeb

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Re: Wind Turbine Upgrade - 7.5 HP Conversion
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2022, 03:46:05 AM »
You're right, and I did log data.  I just haven't set down to crunch the numbers.   Promising!
It took a whole week of virtually no wind (Piggott's law) before a storm blew through. 
In that week I did figure out the fix my datalogger needed.  And yes, it was something I did (sigh).
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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Mary B

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Re: Wind Turbine Upgrade - 7.5 HP Conversion
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2022, 12:06:18 PM »
You aren't the only one who makes a decision then changes their mind LOL I just ordered 300 feet of rotor cable because my original plan was use the rotor that is currently broken on the new tower I have going up... then I changed my mind on which antennas are going on it... that required a change in rotors(new design takes 2!) and a totally different type of rotor cable.

SparWeb

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Re: Wind Turbine Upgrade - 7.5 HP Conversion
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2022, 12:47:48 AM »
though no one here doubted you

You should.  I don't often post about the bone-headed things I do.  It gives a rosy impression I don't deserve.

I've priced out a Classic 150 from a local wholesaler and it costs less than I expected.  For some reason (that I won't complain about) less than the USD price on the Midnite website.
So I won't bother waiting for a Kijiji deal because saving a hundred bucks is one thing, but shipping will eat up most of the savings.
I need to get my thoughts together, and sit down with the installer's manual for a thorough read, then plan my next upgrade.

Although... Given the preliminary results from the WT datalog, I have nothing to complain about as it is now.  Early impressions:  If it has a current limit where the output / RPM curve flattens I can't see it yet.  In moments when the gust overcomes the furling for a moment, it gets up to 35 Amps or more.  Which is more than 1 kW on a 24 volt battery being charged at 28.  Referring back to the bench tests I did before, I know that the switch to a 48VDC system will delay the cutin but the current will rise faster.  Will that mean 2 kW territory?  I'm going to need a baseboard heater in my garage.

The furling works smoothly and at the spot I wanted it, despite all the changes.  The furling starts at 350 RPM, and it has to face an abrupt gust for the blades to speed up past 400 RPM before the tail brings it out of the wind again.  I haven't measured more than 430 RPM on it yet.

Cut in is anywhere between 70 and 85 RPM depending on the battery voltage.  With the blade tips running so slowly, there is absolutely no blade noises at any speed.  Instead the generator is noisier than the Baldor conversion.  The wind is about 30kph (20mph) now and it's easy to hear the generator humming from the house.  Not very happy with that, but I've had worse and not too different from the trains going past (5km away).

The shorting switch worked when I tried it in 40 kph wind.  I haven't been able to try it in stronger wind yet.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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SparWeb

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Re: Wind Turbine Upgrade - 7.5 HP Conversion
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2022, 12:56:38 AM »
Getting somewhere.  Not enough data, yet.  One day of steady strong wind wasn't enough to make good statistics (you may be surprised).  I don't want to say anything premature.  One thing I should have done was set the wind speed reporting interval from 10 minutes (default) to 1 minute on the weather station recording cycle.  The variability of the wind and the WT reaction to it makes 1 minute readings much more useful.  My datalogger records about 4 times per second, so there's a lot of data in a 1-minute period. I'm not sacrificing any accuracy, and gaining 10X for data to fill up "bins" for each given wind speed.  I'll try to remember to do that next time I log data.

Correlating the wind speed from the weather station and the turbine 500 feet (150m) away hasn't turned out very clean because the trees around my house make a "shadow" on the anemometer.  The effect is strongest from the southwest, and that's where the wind was blowing the other day.  I did some guesswork on a correction factor but I have to admit it's actually just fudge-factors I pulled out of my...  So I can't say anything about efficiency or Cp right now.

The datalogger's measurements match up pretty close to the output power figures I measured from the bench tests on the generator (many years ago).  So at least that hasn't changed.

One thing I can confirm is that the TSR is really low.  Like 4 or less.  It's obviously running slower with the "oversized" generator and these measurements bear that out.  The blades were designed for 5 or 6 so I won't be surprised if the Cp is lower than it was before.  There is a lot more current coming in nonetheless.

There are many momentary peaks of 1kW or more.  The 10-minute average power in a 70 kph (45 mph) wind is 750 Watts.  Since the turbine is furling at that point, this average is probably in the middle of a cycle that repeats from acceleration, furling, deceleration, unfurling, etc.  The furling is still quite gentle; no banging or recoil.  The up and down cycle happens just as often as I see it getting fixed in a steady folded position, so it must depend on how gusty the wind is.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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SparWeb

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Re: Wind Turbine Upgrade - 7.5 HP Conversion
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2022, 07:42:47 PM »
I fixed a bad capacitor on the interface board of the tachometer.  Stuff works nicely now.  Data logging today improved by collecting 1-minute interval data.  Not particularly windy, so I got data for low wind speeds from 10 kph (cutin) to about 20 kph.  As expected, system efficiency is lower, even though the output can deliver more Watts when the wind is strong enough.  This is because the 10-ft blades didn't change but the generator got bigger.

Some predictable features of the data:
Very scattery.  The green dots are the 1-minute interval points.  They are so wild I have to collect them into wind-speed bins and find the average in each bin to make a reasonable estimate of the CP at any given wind speed (the green squares).  The TSR is a bit more tame.  The blades were carved to run at TSR=5 but they are being forced to run at TSR=3 or less most of the time.  This approaches stall (TSR=2) and that's a very inefficient range for the blades to be run.  It's a lot like flying a plane at its landing speed for the whole journey.  You get there, but not fast.

The generator is simply too big but I knew that going in.  The numbers game I'm playing here doesn't take away from the fact that for the first time, I have to deal with sustained 30Amps coming in when it's really windy.  I don't have enough data to say anything about using a Midnite Classic, yet, but this is a strong hint.
I haven't had any strong winds to fill in anything about 20kph.
It would be nice to have several batches of data log to refer to as "before" and "after" if I do add a Classic.

15061-0
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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kitestrings

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Re: Wind Turbine Upgrade - 7.5 HP Conversion
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2022, 03:22:02 PM »
Probably too soon to draw conclusions, but your capturing data so that's a plus.

I suppose slightly longer blades could also be a temping solution, but again a wider range of data might give you direction.  The Classic would allow you to increase the rotor speed a bit by raising the voltage earlier in the curve I suspect.

We'll be getting better winds soon...

MattM

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Re: Wind Turbine Upgrade - 7.5 HP Conversion
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2022, 07:54:56 AM »
Longer blades may drop output as they rotate slower relative to wind speeds.

If only there was a simple way to gear two outputs, one to your generator at an optimal RPM and a second to restrict the overall RPMs of the system.  If both were relative then maybe it would able to be accomplished in one variable transmission.

SparWeb

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Re: Wind Turbine Upgrade - 7.5 HP Conversion
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2022, 01:35:13 AM »
There's a cause and effect at play between the blades taking power in and the generator sending power out as electricity.
These two powers need to be in balance, otherwise the blades speed up or slow down, seeking equilibrium.  The seeking of equilibrium isn't particularly concerned with the arbitrary choice I made to carve the blades for any particular TSR.  It will happen even if, to maintain equilibrium, the blades must speed up while moving away from the TSR intended in their carving.  Larger blades always provide more power input, as long as other characteristics like chord, stiffness, and airfoil aren't also changed for the worse.  Putting larger blades on the same generator usually makes everything turn faster.  I've done the opposite: putting a much bigger generator on the same set of blades, and that's why it runs too slow.

The goal with carving a particular TSR in a set of blades is to hit a spot where they actually ARE at the design TSR when this equilibrium is found between energy at the blades and energy to the generator.  That's what gets you a high peak CP.  What you're seeing on the chart above is what happens when the blade speed is not matched to its design TSR.  If you went back to previous posts I made last year, you'd find that the TSR did match the design, and the CP was very high.  That's what swapping the generator has done.

The simplest choices in front of me are (a) carve a bigger set of blades, and choose a TSR curve to match the diameter with the generator's power curve, or (b) install a MPPT controller that will run the generator faster, allowing the blades to function at their design TSR for peak efficiency.  Since things are working fine, and safe, for now, I have no need to change anything right away.  Nothing to complain about because it cuts in OK and the peaks are spectacular.  I can collect more data and plan which of the two will be the most effective (or most fun).
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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kitestrings

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Re: Wind Turbine Upgrade - 7.5 HP Conversion
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2022, 08:47:22 AM »
You explained this much, much better than I could.  I was trying to formulate a response to Matt's comment.  In this case longer blades could result in higher speed because the now oversized generator is likely keeping them in stall, at least in the lower wind conditions.

More to observe and learn still, but I wonder about one other potential choice...  I wonder if you could you just increase the size of your hub diameter slightly, or fashion some sort of root extensions for the existing blades?

SparWeb

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Re: Wind Turbine Upgrade - 7.5 HP Conversion
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2022, 08:29:13 PM »
Indeed, they are on the edge of stall.  As I watch, I'm considering the probability that this, too, seeks an equilibrium, of a different kind.
Stall isn't a binary, is/isn't kind of thing.  It's a region of operation of any airfoil where the lift curve doesn't rise any more.  At the same time the drag curve is still going up, and faster with every degree you go further.  So what I was expecting, before I put this up, was that I would see stalling blades speed up and slow down, in a cycle that doesn't involve furling if the wind speed isn't high enough.  That may be what I'm seeing right now since it's windy but not so windy that furling is happening.  And yet, the blades are speeding up and down.  Output current is drifting from 15 Amps to 35 Amps.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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bigrockcandymountain

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Re: Wind Turbine Upgrade - 7.5 HP Conversion
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2022, 09:08:56 AM »
I'm actually surprised at how well your setup works with that big of a mismatch.  Have you calculated the angle of attack that the blades are seeing? That should be possible with your data logging i think. 

I'm as torn as you are between seeing you carve a bigger set of blades and experimenting with mppt.  Both will be interesting to follow. 

SparWeb

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Re: Wind Turbine Upgrade - 7.5 HP Conversion
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2022, 01:43:12 AM »
Oh, golly, I missed the idea about blade extensions at the hub.
Hmmm....
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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SparWeb

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Re: Wind Turbine Upgrade - 7.5 HP Conversion
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2022, 04:12:17 PM »
12 kWhr in a single day.  Holy cow!
That was on November 2.  I only worked through the datalog yesterday and discovered the total.

When I plug in my computer to download the datalog, the logger reboots itself.  This erases the cumulative kWHr on the LCD display.  I forgot to look before plugging in last time, so I didn't know until I was going through my spreadsheets, and discovered the happy result.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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SparWeb

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Re: Wind Turbine Upgrade - 7.5 HP Conversion
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2022, 04:39:24 PM »
Enough wind in the past few days to make a fairly complete power curve.

15069-0

As I commented before, I expected the power coefficient of the blades to be lower (20-30%) because of the heavy generator.  This is more than made up for by the electrical efficiency of the generator, which is much greater than the Baldor conversion was.  An overall improvement.

15068-1
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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SparWeb

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Re: Wind Turbine Upgrade - 7.5 HP Conversion
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2022, 04:41:43 PM »
Still love to watch it turn.

15070-0
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System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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kitestrings

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Re: Wind Turbine Upgrade - 7.5 HP Conversion
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2022, 08:22:05 PM »
Oh my, you've got early snow.  We've been totally spoiled this fall with unusually warm temps.  Today was nearly 70 degF.  I know it's coming.  I'm anxious to ski, but it's been hard to wish for snow with this weather.

Good production numbers.  That's encouraging, huh.

topspeed

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Re: Wind Turbine Upgrade - 7.5 HP Conversion
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2022, 12:07:29 AM »
Proof!

Today is also a fulfillment of Piggott's Law;  "On the day you raise a wind turbine, there will be no wind until at least the next day."



Yes that hurts...I spent 3 days in island to catch wind...on none of the days the wind blew like was forecasted. Instead I did see Aurora Borealis, rainbow and a solar eclipse.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

kitestrings

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Re: Wind Turbine Upgrade - 7.5 HP Conversion
« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2022, 08:02:16 AM »
I meant to comment on the photo earlier.  That is one happy looking turbine.  I still really love the clear finish blades.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2022, 07:29:56 PM by kitestrings »

SparWeb

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Re: Wind Turbine Upgrade - 7.5 HP Conversion
« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2022, 01:54:59 AM »
topspeed,
You seem to have the perfect insurance plan to have a good time on the island:
It's windy, meaning you get to watch your turbine in action, OR
It's not windy, meaning you get to enjoy pleasant weather and all the beauties of nature.

You have a win-win scenario!  8)
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca