Author Topic: So I went down the Nickel-Iron battery rabbit hole...  (Read 1967 times)

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SimonMester

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So I went down the Nickel-Iron battery rabbit hole...
« on: December 10, 2023, 09:50:05 PM »
So after a lot of reading, I have a pretty good idea on the pros and cons of this type of battery (aka Edison battery).
I'm sure most of you reading this will be aware of at least the broad strokes. Low energy density, slow charge and discharge, some maintenance needed, but pros being it not needing lithium, simple construction, not being a literal bomb waiting to explode and century long battery life.
It seems nowadays there is a bit more resurgence for off grid applications especially.
It is not a straight up attractive proposition however, for a couple reasons. The main one being the surprisingly high price. It's not really due to the materials needed, it's more due to almost no R&D, manufacturing, as it has remained very niche, thus costs are that of a niche product.

This is where I have begun with search for other hobbyists. I have seen many DIY attempts, all super small scale, and quite arbitrary in their measurements. I'd like to give it a go myself, but preferably one that is a bit more thought out in terms of chemistry and construction.
I have one modification over the usual idea. The electrolyte that is usually used is KOH. It's quite hard to get here for some reason, and luckily NaOH is a good, cheap and available substitution.
I have managed to find some conductivity tables, and turns out 20% wt NaOH has the highest electrical conductivity. It's about two thirds of that of KOH, so I expect a lower voltage at the end, but for my purposes, I'd like to figure out a practical, cheap manufacture, and then the scaling of that, so I'm not super concerned with lesser efficiencies or outputs.

For the electrodes, one the one side we have black Nickel III oxide, on the other we have Iron III oxide, Fe3O4. I have this in the form of fine magnetite powder already.
There are several proposed ways of making the electrodes. Usually involving nickel plated steel as a base to put the oxides on. This achieves corrosion resistance, and deposition of oxides aims to maximize surface area of the oxides and thus overall conductivity and efficiency.

This is probably the biggest question in manufacturing. How to maximize surface area, while not making manufacture really complex or energy intense.
Here are my ideas: Usage of epoxy for binding bits of the oxides, essentially making 'sandpaper' electrodes. Turns out epoxy is really resistant to the caustic environment, so it should stand up to the task. The problem is that the oxide has to be accessible by the NaOH, and covering it with epoxy would defeat the whole thing.
This would mean the fine powders would have to be turned into smaller grains, and the epoxy layer would need to be quite thin, probably pressing the grains into it until bound.

I have seen other suggestions with making mixtures, pastes of the oxides, usually mixing them with some form of graphite, interestingly. I haven't found really clear reasoning as to why, but I did read some references to spacing out the oxides, leaving 'voids' between them being good, and carbon being employed to that end.

Electroplating steel wool with nickel, and then coating it with such paste might be a really nice solution, once a decent mixture is identified.

I have a few questions, to anyone who might be a knower:

- How would one come to calculate the ratios of Nickel, Iron and Electrolyte for each cell. I have found references to oversizing the iron side by 20-30% being healthy to prevent battery damage while charging/discharging, but I have very little clue on what amount of electrolyte would be needed.

- I have read nickel wires are a must in this caustic environment, which makes sense, but I have never used those. Do they refer to nickel coated copper wires?

- I hardly find references to positioning of the electrodes in relation to each other. What relevance does that have?
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MattM

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Re: So I went down the Nickel-Iron battery rabbit hole...
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2023, 06:43:03 AM »
Can you get enough adhesion using enamel?  There is a nylon fibrous non-uniform mesh called Flo-free that perhaps could be doped with enamel, and as its drying but still has tack, coated with your iron powder.  The material is sold in 6" or 36" wide rolls.  If you need more uniform material then perhaps you could use screen material doped in a similar way using different screen fiber sizes between layers to prevent blockages.

If only there was a way to use a pair of water acid neutralizer canisters to circulate your liquid between anode and cathode, where you could just fill both up and use a membranes in the pipes connecting the two for keeping them separated.  Its never that easy.

Edit:  Nevermind my ramblings.  I was thinking this was a flow battery.  Nickel-iron has a very narrow gap required.  Literally more similar to lead-acid battery than a flow battery.  Even has significant off gassing, so no way to completely seal them.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2023, 07:12:14 AM by MattM »

SimonMester

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Re: So I went down the Nickel-Iron battery rabbit hole...
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2023, 09:08:13 AM »
Yeah, it has off gassing so significant, there is research on capturing the Hydrogen to be used.
The problem of the materials is also that it will be sitting in a super caustic environment, so I'll definitely need information on whether they can put up with it, before I buy anything.
Nickel and Nickel plated things work, and epoxy does too. Polypropylene does too, but thats quite expensive and annoying to get.
I'll have a little read into those meshes, but I'm not sure how could I coat them without sealing up the holes. It's all done by hand and fine powders.
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SimonMester

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Re: So I went down the Nickel-Iron battery rabbit hole...
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2023, 10:59:58 AM »
I'm also thinking, maybe something like this: https://www.easycomposites.co.uk/polypropylene-plastic-sheet
It could be the base of the plates, and then maybe bind with epoxy on the surface. That way I at least have rigid plates to work with that are easier to position as well?
I'm not sure how to avoid the fine powder just clumping together though. Maybe thats where some additive, such as carbon can be useful to space them out.


Nvm I'm an idiot, the big reason people use nickel plated sheets is not just chemical resistance, but you need it to be a conductor to attach your wires to of course.
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Mary B

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Re: So I went down the Nickel-Iron battery rabbit hole...
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2023, 11:44:37 AM »
Going to toss in a word of caution. Caustic materials are VERY dangerous to handle. They will turn your skin to soap in seconds sloughing it off... and you won't feel it because it doesn't burn like acid does!

I used to handle 55 gallon drums of caustic soda. I had to wear a full coverage protective suit with helmet in case of splashes... the neutralizer for it was hydrochloric acid! After that a bath in a baking soda based neutralizer then the emergency shower... we had to use it once when I worked at that feed testing lab, one of the girls mixed things wrong and a liter of it blew up in her face, she needed lower face, neck, and upper chest skin grafts over a period of 2 years and the scarring was bad... wasn't the first bad accident while I worked there... one of the other girls did the same with a gallon of sulfuric acid she was supposed to dilute... she added water to acid... bad idea... it boils and creates a LOT of heat.


SimonMester

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Re: So I went down the Nickel-Iron battery rabbit hole...
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2023, 11:51:32 AM »
Yeah it is nasty stuff. I studied biochemical engineering, and only ever used small amount of acids and bases, and always very slowly.
I have deep respect for it. Exothermic reactions are no joke.
Not going to mix any of the stuff without an ice bath that's for sure.
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SimonMester

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Re: So I went down the Nickel-Iron battery rabbit hole...
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2023, 12:21:33 PM »
So after digging even deeper, this is the one chemical route I found so far, on affixing the oxides (iron and nickel) to the electrodes:

"Iron (anode) Plate
   
   To make the iron anode, first mix 6 1/4 grams of iron oxide with 1 1/4 gram of ammonium chloride,
   then add distilled water a drop at a time until a stiff
   paste results. The mixture will give off ammonia gas and will turn to a
   white color. Working quickly, smear the paste well into a 1½ x 6-inch piece
   of No. 20 or 30 close mesh iron or copper wire screening.
   
   It will take about a day for the paste to thoroughly set and harden on the
   screen, or you can hasten it by placing it in an oven set at no more than
   130°F. When dry, lay screen in a solution of ammonium chloride (12½ grams to
   6 oz. of water), for about 1½ hours to harden it further. This completes the
   anode plate.
   
   Nickel (cathode) Plate
   
   To make the nickel cathode, first mix 6 1/4 grams of nickel oxide with 1 1/4 gram of ammonium chloride,
   then add distilled water a drop at a time until a
   stiff paste results. The mixture will give off ammonia gas. Form this plate
   directly on the surface of a 1½ x 6-inch. piece of .015 inch or thicker
   nickel screen, which has been cleaned thoroughly with emery cloth. Working
   quickly, smear this paste well into a 1½ x 6-inch piece of No. 20 or 30
   close-mesh nickel wire screening.
   
   It will take about a day for this paste to thoroughly set and harden on the
   screen, or you can hasten it by placing it in an oven set at no more than
   130°F. When dry, lay screen in a solution of ammonium chloride (12½ grams to 6 oz. of water),
   for about 1½ hours to harden it further.
   
   Fill a wide mouthed jar or a 1000 ml. Beaker with 32 oz. of distilled water.
   Dissolve 9¼ grams of sodium hydroxide (lye) in this water and add 1 gram of
   common table salt. Sodium hydroxide is hard on the hands and clothes in its concentrated form,
   so don't handle the crystals with your fingers and always add the crystals to the water slowly.
   
   Mark the iron oxide plate negative and nickel oxide positive now to avoid
   mistakes. Connect a battery charger or car storage battery to the plates,
   negative to iron oxide plate and positive to the nickel oxide plate, also a
   direct current ammeter or digital multi-meter and a l0-ohm 25-watt resister
   is added in series with the forming current. Turn on the forming current and
   adjust the variable resister so that only 1 ampere of forming current flows.
   It is important that you observe polarity right at the first charge.
   Connecting the negative lead to the iron oxide plate and the positive lead
   to the nickel oxide plate. This charge must be (2 or 3 hours), because the
   iron oxide plate must be converted to metallic iron. It doesn't matter if
   the plates gas in this forming charge.
   
   Attach the cathode and anode plates to a strip of wood to test them. Fill
   another 13-oz. glass tumbler with about 9 oz. of distilled water and slowly
   dissolve 3 oz. of sodium hydroxide in this to form the electrolyte of the
   iron-nickel cell. Suspend the plates in this liquid. Now your cell is
   complete. Cell voltage on open circuit will be right around 0.75 volts for
   this iron-nickel Edison cell. "

Since I have very little clue on why and how ammonium chloride would work with this cell, or what it would be doing while the battery is in operation, I'm quite cautious of just taking this random conversation at face value.
Anyone with a higher degree of understanding of chemistry, care to pitch in?
PPE and hazards aside, I mean purely for how and why this could function.
I also note he specifies for the meshes to be Nickel on one side and Iron on the other. This confused me a little, as it is the Iron and Nickel oxides doing the work as far as I understood before. The meshes are supposed to just be corrosion resistant current collectors, thus usually being nickel plated steel? Not sure about that part in the conversation either.

If this was a workable solution however, that would make producing such a cell quite viable, at least for experimentation purposes at first.
I'd rather use a chemical paste like that, than some silver doped epoxy that costs an arm and a leg.

Anyways, any input welcome! It's surprisingly hard to find answers for this chemistry via just googling.
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SimonMester

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Re: So I went down the Nickel-Iron battery rabbit hole...
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2023, 06:08:50 PM »
So I have further looked into the few sources on the subject. Lots of old patents and projects. I have compiled the most successful ones, and will try reproducing them. I'll have a bias for the more simple designs, naturally some of those century old patents are not only large scale, but super complex manufacturing too.
I'll post my updates here and on youtube as  I go along.
It will be a slow process I imagine, due to the lack of funds, so I started a mini crowdfunder, in case anyone is interested in pitching in, I appreciate it for great science!
(https://gofund.me/b516f7b4)

I have found a source of small 100ml polypropylene jars, and dense stainless steel meshes.
The first and one of the most complex challenges will be figuring out the electrodes. I am going with forming various pastes of the oxides and drying them onto the meshes. The meshes will first need to be electroplated with Nickel.
Once I have succeeded there, I can move on to the electrolyte and run experiments with additives into that, for which I have several candidates, mostly inorganics.
Interestingly, for the electrodes, there are some organic acids that are mentioned, so once I have some cells running with an established performance, I'd love to manufacture electrodes with different additives and run long term comparisons.
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MattM

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Re: So I went down the Nickel-Iron battery rabbit hole...
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2023, 06:46:40 PM »
I don't play with ammonia myself.  Nasty stuff.  Use extreme caution and dope it with a tracer so you smell leaks.

SimonMester

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Re: So I went down the Nickel-Iron battery rabbit hole...
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2023, 07:15:20 PM »
I don't play with ammonia myself.  Nasty stuff.  Use extreme caution and dope it with a tracer so you smell leaks.

Yes, I am not thrilled about making ammonia gas. I am ascertaining the danger. A small amount is released, in an outdoor setting, with full face respirator. I'm trying to math out as well as ask around to see if that gets dispersed reasonably so as not to pose a problem, as I have not worked with ammonia, I want to be sure.
Gases terrify me more than the strongest of acids tbh.
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JW

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Re: So I went down the Nickel-Iron battery rabbit hole...
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2023, 08:39:17 PM »
I have worked with some heavy-duty stuff it wasn't just the respirator, eye protection was needed. (this was a silver plating application) 

SimonMester

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Re: So I went down the Nickel-Iron battery rabbit hole...
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2023, 08:58:29 PM »
I have worked with some heavy-duty stuff it wasn't just the respirator, eye protection was needed. (this was a silver plating application)

Eye protection is a default in doing any kind of DIY for me personally. Not just chemistry. Working with magnets is a shrapnel mine waiting to happen. Even something innocent like woodwork or painting, I'm terrified of getting unlucky and never seeing again.
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Mary B

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Re: So I went down the Nickel-Iron battery rabbit hole...
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2023, 10:43:11 PM »
I have worked with some heavy-duty stuff it wasn't just the respirator, eye protection was needed. (this was a silver plating application)

Eye protection is a default in doing any kind of DIY for me personally. Not just chemistry. Working with magnets is a shrapnel mine waiting to happen. Even something innocent like woodwork or painting, I'm terrified of getting unlucky and never seeing again.

I wear glasses and always get safety lenses... and I have old pairs with deep pits from flying bits of metal, wood... paint over spray(not good for the eyeballs!)...

Jackir

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Re: So I went down the Nickel-Iron battery rabbit hole...
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2023, 10:05:57 AM »
1. Ratios: Oversize the iron side by 20-30% to prevent damage, but electrolyte amount might require some trial and error.
2. Nickel wires: Use pure nickel wires, not coated copper, for durability in the caustic environment.
3. Electrode spacing: Experiment to find the right distance to avoid short-circuits and maintain efficiency.

SimonMester

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Re: So I went down the Nickel-Iron battery rabbit hole...
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2023, 02:36:42 PM »
1. Ratios: Oversize the iron side by 20-30% to prevent damage, but electrolyte amount might require some trial and error.
2. Nickel wires: Use pure nickel wires, not coated copper, for durability in the caustic environment.
3. Electrode spacing: Experiment to find the right distance to avoid short-circuits and maintain efficiency.

Yes, I heard that 25-30% oversized iron anode quoted a lot, seems to be quite agreed upon.
I couldn't find solid evidence for spacing, so trial and error it is, indeed.
I have consulted some electrochemists as well, have some ideas on how to proceed.
For the wires, I have found nickel plated copper, in PTFE coating, which should be superb in hydroxides. At the ends it will be coated/glued with resistant epoxy, and the cells are topped off with mineral oil to reduce corrosion further. From what I have seen and read I think that should work for the wires.
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