VAWT backyard experiements

[brandnewb]

But!! one very important things to take account of is that this only happens when the wind is in the specific wind direction the previous animation showed.

Most of my house is blocking the wind of ever reaching the other arms so of course rotation will encur.

I am just hoping I can exploit this concept that when the blades are on and when the wind comes from this angle then things will be like nothing ever charted

Sure i will have to tone things down again later but if no one does push envelopes. Then who will?

[brandnewb]

Ok ok I thought why wait until all 3 blades are attached and things spin neatly while now is the time to deal with the needed critisim before I spend a lot of time going down a path that leads to disasters.



Now the blade frame is not tensioned yet and also not leveled and what have we.

I also already know that the 8mm ropes will need sleeves else they will be cut through sooner or later by the alu holes they are in.

It is just a sign of what is to come and it is open hunting season for those that can shoot holes in this concept. Please do!!!!!!

[brandnewb]

I did not want to wait with an update until also the last blade frame was fully tensioned as we are already in twilight.

I have been able to make the central column stiffer by first, and yes I told earlier that I would not try it, using rigid foam to fill up the column.

That helped ever so slightly so not a complete waste of time and material.

Then I went for the body armor. That helps as well but what it also enables me to see is that the problem of flex manifests even on short distances.

it is the part between the arms and the column retainer block where we still can see flex. Sure less now it is filled with rigid foam but not nearly as much as I think one should need.

This basically also makes the plan I had next to shorten the central column by 1 meter, leaving 1 meter a dead end so I will not even go there with this current column as it would probably make no difference as that is not the weak spot.

So I will be going for the 100mm diam alu after all.

But I will let this version still spin for a while with 1 maybe 2 wind panels per blade as long as the wind is manageable. Just to see more things happen where I should focus on.



{1}upcoming improvements are to replace the 8mm ropes (that have a max tensile strength of 90kg) with 4mm stainless steel wires. I am hoping it will increase the tensile strength while reducing the vibration likeliness.

@MattM, this is one of the reasons I did not fancy yet the idea of fortifying the structure with yet another structure because as far as I am able to tell by now is that adding surface area for the wind to catch on or to bang to it will make a lot of difference.
So this is why I am not fully confident in using slimmed down versions of formulas to calculate wind load even though I have been asking for them. Nah let field tests speak for them selfs as I am simply not able to wrap my mind around even the most basic formulas as soon as they start becoming in a form or containing components I am not yet familiar with
 {1}

[brandnewb]

ugg!!

I now think these panels in a 1m wide configuration do NOT make for a good wind catcher. The bulge seems not enough to act as buckets. They seem to act as regular surfaces with the turbine going back and forth.

Well that was an expensive blunder

Please do not worry though. More of those to come

One could think just reduce the width of the blade frames but then the panels are no longer easy to work with and they might even snap before getting them into place.

But please never let it be said that trail and error is not one of the best ways of advancing.

Here is a sign of what is to come.

(Attachment Link)

Although not really cheap these panels are easy to work with. Can take a beating and also do not care about weather conditions.

The way I installed them they also have a natural self destruct moment that I have no idea yet on how to determine that. But they can just pop out when things get tooo rough.

But maybe i need them to pop out far earlier than in their current configuration. I am thinking yes!

A 4x1 blade is just insanity at this stage of my capabilities.

Even though I am not one to shy away from a challenge I might not take this particular one  if going more containable will also render usable power.

[brandnewb]

@MattM is not that what you were referring to earlier? Those 100 to 200mm you mentioned as a weak spot. At first I did not really understand it and I am not sure that I now do but if it was referring the part below the arms then here you go. Field results stating you were spot on.

I did not want to wait with an update until also the last blade frame was fully tensioned as we are already in twilight.

I have been able to make the central column stiffer by first, and yes I told earlier that I would not try it, using rigid foam to fill up the column.

That helped ever so slightly so not a complete waste of time and material.

Then I went for the body armor. That helps as well but what it also enables me to see is that the problem of flex manifests even on short distances.

it is the part between the arms and the column retainer block where we still can see flex. Sure less now it is filled with rigid foam but not nearly as much as I think one should need.

This basically also makes the plan I had next to shorten the central column by 1 meter, leaving 1 meter a dead end so I will not even go there with this current column as it would probably make no difference as that is not the weak spot.

So I will be going for the 100mm diam alu after all.

But I will let this version still spin for a while with 1 maybe 2 wind panels per blade as long as the wind is manageable. Just to see more things happen where I should focus on.

(Attachment Link)

{1}upcoming improvements are to replace the 8mm ropes (that have a max tensile strength of 90kg) with 4mm stainless steel wires. I am hoping it will increase the tensile strength while reducing the vibration likeliness.

@MattM, this is one of the reasons I did not fancy yet the idea of fortifying the structure with yet another structure because as far as I am able to tell by now is that adding surface area for the wind to catch on or to bang to it will make a lot of difference.
So this is why I am not fully confident in using slimmed down versions of formulas to calculate wind load even though I have been asking for them. Nah let field tests speak for them selfs as I am simply not able to wrap my mind around even the most basic formulas as soon as they start becoming in a form or containing components I am not yet familiar with
 {1}

[brandnewb]

Also one very important thing I would like to remind everyone about is.

I do not mind starting over from the ground up!
Sure I have been saying that I would like to see how far I can get with what I have and that is still true.

But in regards to the turbine structure I think I might better just hit the reset button and go from the ground up again.

Regarding the alternator I am just too damned stubborn to let things go just yet. But trust me when I finally hit a wall there as well then I will make it known.

Sure It would be great if I can leave a parting gift for my offspring to look up to when I am no longer here (as in see what my daddy did!!) but in the end of the day all we really need is a turbine that works and might be adaptable to more common scenarios for others to reap the benefits from.

in other words I am still very much open to suggestions should one have them

[brandnewb]

@Adriaan krachten,

Sure I have difficulties with higher math. But that does not mean I am not in need of your input.

I mean if anyone can figure out a usefull bulge degree for a cup then it would be you!.

So I am really missing your input here at the moment.

Please let past things or feelings slide much easier. I mean other wise the world would stay as it is at the moment.

After all I never had the intend to be nasty.

[brandnewb]

the pressing of the reset button is becoming more likely.
 
I just figured we can do with a lot less tension wires if we would use wood for blade frames and orient them such that tensioning is less of a concern.

the added weight can be dealt with with over the counter components

[MattM]

Half cylinders will be your best 'pure drag' shape.

Your frames should work.  Take some flat stock and form half cylinders by screwing each side of the material to each vertical frame, so that from looking at it from above it curves into a half circle.  The material needs to be a stiff half circle so that it maintains low drag as it rotates into the wind.  As the half circle points downwind it will will have maximum drag.

[brandnewb]

Yes thank you Matt!  (earlier I wrote Bruce )

i will try and make something similar to a half circle.

In the meantime I also have theoretically solved the issue of the wobbling of the arms. I am now busy on the alternator test bench so knowing for sure will have to wait for now.

Let's hope I am able to keep this pipe, and more specifically the connection with the arms, stable.

[brandnewb]

Ok because I ran out of steam (printer issues, resin quantity issues, just a basic lack of understanding on how to go about testing coils issues and what have we) working on the coils I went ahead with the turbine but there I also hit a road bumb.

No matter how hard I try I can't get rid of the excessive flex with the 48mm tube plus armor. Even when going to 1 meter.



So I have ordered a solid rod of 50mm diam and by my limited research that should roughly a little less than tripple the resistance to flex, aka moment of inertia, over the current tube alone. But since we are going from around 103,967mm4 to only 306,796mm4 I thought it also better to buy this 100mmx5mm diam alu tube I mentioned earlier.

And yes you have guessed it correctly. Mary was right! Then the MoI will be around 1,688,115mm4 when going 100mm diam

hahhahha now that is packing a punch!!!

With all the alu I am no longer using I can cast parts out of. I have seen some suggestions on how to use 3d printing to prepare alu casting shapes. So I really am ok with trying alu and sometimes failing with it.

{1}earlier in my journey someone on here suggested a rather effective idea with interwoven spokes in case the sway of the central column would give too much of a deflection while directly driving the alternator.. Well, although I do not believe I will need it yet. Should practice demand otherwise then I will make that part out of alu {1}

[brandnewb]

I have some updates in the meantime.

The coil tests are really promising.


The vertical division was set at 500mV
And the iron powdered coil on the right not only improves the voltage at low frequencies but also demonstrates superior heat dissipation capabilities as well.


Earlier tests show that the iron powdered coil never becomes too hot too touch when applying around 53 VAC at around 2.6 ampere

[brandnewb]

next up will be 6 of those coils stacked. 2 coils per phase wired in series.



I am hoping that the heat disapation ability will still be superior but I am a little sceptical as there is now far less space for the iron powder to occupy.
Let's see how it goes but I have to wait a few days until my lab oscillator is in to be able to shake the iron powder through all the wires.

Also I am working on the air wheels as blades. Early tests suggest it could work.

I think this turbine is going to be insane when done

[brandnewb]

if anyone can recommend a type of gear that can increase the rotation speed of a PMA while having its center similar to the central column then I can reduce the cost of the alternator considerable by reducing it's radius and also design fans that will help cool the coils during rotating.

{1}Never mind. planetary gears seem to be suitable{1}

[JW]

Wow that's some expensive looking stuff-

[Mary B]

Wow that's some expensive looking stuff-

Affordable actually! Chinese Oscope was probably in the $300 area... little power supply $100 area max...

[brandnewb]

Yes Mary is correct. I make sure I buy the entry level stuff as I am still not sure if I can jusitfy all the costs for the big gun as I probably will only make wind turbines with all those stuff. Except the thermal camera I see a lot of other usages for but also that one is the most basic entry level I could find,

But that the iron powder filled coil can take around 100 watts 53VAC at 2.6 amps without overheating I did not expect. I stoped the test after 7 minutes before reaching that conclusion.

So I guess I will have to go back to the drawing board to see how I can reduce the radius of the alternator and reduce the amount of magnets because currently that coil produces 2.5 VAC at around 4 Hz which is a bit more than the target frequency of the current alternator design.

That is all far too high so I will see if I can reduce the Billl of Materials considerably while keeping the same target voltage.

I have really never seen results like this before. I am impressed by what these small wires can do with proper heat dissipation.

Or did you guys expect this to happen?

[MattM]

Your voltage is a product of coil wraps.  You can go fewer wraps to drop voltage.

[brandnewb]

 

I am looking for that image you sent once in relation to a remark Adriaan made over that a direct drive would be problematic due to the swaying of the central column.

But I lost the bookmark and the search feature is not working as intended.

Would you mind posting that image again please? this time I will be sure to save it to disk.

I am looking for a way to connect a planetary gear to the central column even when the column might be swaying a bit. I think that image might hold inspiration.

Your voltage is a product of coil wraps.  You can go fewer wraps to drop voltage.

[MattM]

I saved them on my laptop but can you describe it?

[brandnewb]

Thanks brother for at least engaging on this.

Yet I have tried every permutation know to mankind using the search function (heavy exaggeration alert!!) and all the results that do show up do not lead to what I am looking for. Even in the thread where I remember it to be.

For all we know it might not even been you that send the image as it was not a drawing like you share sometimes to convert ideas. No it looked like a scan of of something. Duo tone black and white. In where one shaft with some kind of blades attached to another with some kinds of blades.

It would help a lot if I could search on more parameters. With one of them being whether there is an attachment.

[Mary B]

Search for GoVertical he built a geared up machine using belts https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,143852.486.html

[brandnewb]

that is the whole point Mary.

Searching does not work on this software to be of any kind of practical value.

I am sorry I had to resort to this hard statement as earlier I tried the cloak of love to say the same. But if even moderators keep sending me through this black hole again then it needed to be said.

@moderators. How can I search and find all images ever posted in a topic I was involved with?
That would be my SQL query if I had access to the DB.

[brandnewb]

and then as filter only threads with me at OP.

[brandnewb]

ohh and i have another question.

Why does not everyone either challenge my findings regarding the stacking of magnets or publicly agree with me that long held notions might be farther from the truth than first though.

I even offered my stuff more than once for one to help me either confirm or debunk.

I mean if even , the great creator of reports,  is now reluctant to contribute to my threads due to some basic push back and is unwilling to accept my offer to help me out then what does that mean?

I mean there is no one really going to peer review his reports are there? Yeah that is what I though as is the creator of said reports.

Look I might be mistaken of course and if such then I will fully admit how tremendously stupid I am. Yet without some solid evidence that is easy to follow for a layman I am not going to even bother trying to go any deeper into that rabit hole.

Those strange ideas I had that were ridiculed earlier? Well they do still seem strange for now yet still worth exploring.

I mean I challenge anyone to give me an example of a coil that can take a beating like I displayed and keep smiling during.



So I invite you all to follow my lead. I do not know yet where we are heading but I need all the help I can get to get there.

 But one thing I do know. We will only usesome kind of demonstration and documentation system so that it can be peer reviewed to go forwards. And I am always open to constructive critique.

[Bruce S]

ohh and i have another question.

Why does not everyone either challenge my findings regarding the stacking of magnets or publicly agree with me that long held notions might be farther from the truth than first though.

I even offered my stuff more than once for one to help me either confirm or debunk.

I mean if even , the great creator of reports,  is now reluctant to contribute to my threads due to some basic push back and is unwilling to accept my offer to help me out then what does that mean?

I mean there is no one really going to peer review his reports are there? Yeah that is what I though as is the creator of said reports.

Look I might be mistaken of course and if such then I will fully admit how tremendously stupid I am. Yet without some solid evidence that is easy to follow for a layman I am not going to even bother trying to go any deeper into that rabit hole.

Those strange ideas I had that were ridiculed earlier? Well they do still seem strange for now yet still worth exploring.

I mean I challenge anyone to give me an example of a coil that can take a beating like I displayed and keep smiling during.



So I invite you all to follow my lead. I do not know yet where we are heading but I need all the help I can get to get there.

 But one thing I do know. We will only use demonstration and documentation to go forwards. And I am always open to constructive critique.

Not sure you are criticizing the members here for not critiquing your stuff or where you are going with this.
BUT I will state for the record.
ALL of the owners, admins, Mod have a great number of things that are just as important in their daily lives as assisting where we can.
I for one work for a metropolitan sized Fire department, therefore I use my personal time to assist.
I'm certain that if you look, you'll also see others have 'mills of various sizes to work on, and other have jobs too.

IF we the other forum members don't get back to you quickly, it might be 'cause we're dealing with other more important things, like keeping the onboard laptop in a Hazmat apparatus linked so we can get real-time updates during a "situation" or maybe someone's up a pole fixing a squeaky bearing, or a broken blade.

Hope that helps you understand why we don't always jump as quickly as one might want.

Bruce S
     

[brandnewb]

I was addressing the naysayers Bruce.

Not the well intended folks that keep this show on the road.

[brandnewb]

In my dairy I will note the following;

Although no longer of young age, it is striking to me that I already have a minimum of 3 concrete moments in life in where though persistence/perseverance, against all odds, I came out satisfied.

Now this is to say that always hold your head up and always be respectful.

In no way did I insinuate disrespect to anyone not even to the forum software. Yet the forum software is one thing clear in vision on what I would to contribute on.

And I think that I have reason and prerogative to do so.  And even so I still manage to word things rather pleasant most of the times.
And am willing to help if need be.

No I think it is a sign of respect if one also gives a little push back every now and then. A sign of respect to the greater good.

Now I am open to learning how to better formulate my sentences to avoid triggering emotions again. But the moral of the intend is set.

Just do know I love all of you.

[MattM]

Thanks brother for at least engaging on this.

Yet I have tried every permutation know to mankind using the search function (heavy exaggeration alert!!) and all the results that do show up do not lead to what I am looking for. Even in the thread where I remember it to be.

For all we know it might not even been you that send the image as it was not a drawing like you share sometimes to convert ideas. No it looked like a scan of of something. Duo tone black and white. In where one shaft with some kind of blades attached to another with some kinds of blades.

It would help a lot if I could search on more parameters. With one of them being whether there is an attachment.

More than likely its a post from Adrian if its a scan.

[Mary B]

that is the whole point Mary.

Searching does not work on this software to be of any kind of practical value.

I am sorry I had to resort to this hard statement as earlier I tried the cloak of love to say the same. But if even moderators keep sending me through this black hole again then it needed to be said.

@moderators. How can I search and find all images ever posted in a topic I was involved with?
That would be my SQL query if I had access to the DB.

Sure it works, I searched for "geared up vawt" GoVertical popped up

[brandnewb]

one other way of looking at where I am coming from;

I see social media as both a good and terrifying thing.

It enables me to get relevant help on topics of concern and also motivates me as it is something of an audience builder. I would look like a moron to not see things through when the world is watching!!

If there were no eyes then there are all too many excuses I could think of to "postpone" the project.
those are good things


On the other hand it is also polluting the minds of young children. They are not yet capable of filtering the nonsense from the useful. The amount of harmful content out there is staggering.

I just hope the world gets rid of religion as it is not demonstrably actually true and also that people with claims (like my self) are proactively demonstrating the logic and data behind those claims.

And with demonstrating I mean much more than only writing things down in a language that is off putting for laymen to engage with.

Otherwise it is rather difficult even for adults to filter the nonsense from the useful.

[DamonHD]

It is not just children that fail to filter out nonsense, IMHO.  Not everyone over 18 should retain a full adulting licence, based on behaviour...

BTW, on FL we try to avoid any discussion of a number of inflammatory off-topic areas, including religion.  Bruce can put on his bold moderator hat and say it in a serious voice.  %-P

Rgds

Damon

[brandnewb]

understood sir. I will then also treat my own diary less of a personal logbook and rather more public.