How to determine the limits of a coil / magnet configuration

[brandnewb]

Ok Sir,

Please see if I am following your lead well enough of that I need to make changes.

I have the gravity torque setup ready now. I think.

(Attachment Link)

And this time I will test the failed 6 coil stacked 3 phase arrangement.

It failed because the coils moved during the curing so now there is no longer a perfect 1.25 degree of separation between each phase.
Also this test is too thick and too heavy and also just not homogeneous enough.

Nah I will do it much better next try.

{1}Also a single coil of 300 winds at 0.4mm is 92 grams net. So excluding any resin around it.{1}
(Attachment Link)

Can you please elaborate a bit on what is OD and ID.

And what is it I am testing for again?

In my previous thread you mentioned we are looking for the sweet spot for how much mechanical resistance the coils can provide to the magnets to produce amperage or something to that extend.

Is this still related?

The point is to find the optimal inner and outer diameter and thickness of a coil that provides the most resistance.

The problem is, the magnet's radius is also a variable. You cant have the magnets too far apart, because when you connect all the coils together, the current is flowing through other coils which are not producing voltage.. so ideally you need 3 test coils, connected in Y, but shorted. Or perhaps better, rectify the test coils and short the rectifier.

So you want to keep your magnet and coil ratio, and magnet spacing (both are variables you can change) such that you ether get a clean sine wave, or a trapezoid, but if your magnets are too far apart, you get a sine wave ish pulse, followed by dead space, then a pulse of the opposite polarity, and this will be worse.. unless you rectify every coil separately.

 

I am ready finally. I can now do anything you suggest just like @joestru.

This hint is that I am ready and waiting with sensors. To measure .

just in general what I do not like is that fair interaction is not persuaded on.

[brandnewb]

I am not ready at all

You see the gravity torque test is not working out

It is proving really difficult to get the PMA rotating at the intended speed with the coils closed.

So for a 29 leg coil of 5x 0.4mm litz wire I got only around 22 watts. (I had to wind the coil a little less than the intended 31 legs because I never realized that when adding wires in parallel we will need more length   so I ended up short thus the 29 coil legs )

I dropped a weight of 6 kg from 2.163 m height.
and open coil it took 4.95 sec
closed coil it took 45.32 seconds but the end speed was nearly not high enough as the intended speed.

I can add weights but there will always be a ramp up time needed and also then the disk would start spinning far too fast with the coils open.
Either I do not get how to properly conduct the gravity torque test or it is just not applicable in this scenario.

I do think though that this 5x 0.4 litz wired coil is not better than a single 1mm wired coil as the area is still less.
0.4 mm diam = 0.12566 mm2 * 5 = 0.6283 mm2
1 mm diam = 0.7854 mm2

what a complete waste having bought huge spools of 0.4 and 0.71mm wires.

if anyone can think of a good use for that?

I am now looking for a reliable way to measure the amps in the coils while shorted so that i can have the motor spin at the intended speed and then calculate the wattage the coils produce.
What would be the best tool to do that an accurate amp measurement?

[brandnewb]

I am happy to report progress.

so after a considerable amount of extra experiments I found that there might be a good reason to use smaller diam wires after all.

You see that I now hold the believe that while using litz wired coils one can have more wires exposed to the field where it matters as opposed to a single larger diam wire.
And since we are talking about AC here rather than the DC tests I run for establishing a field strength there is soo much less heat build up as the electrons go back and forth thus constantly not going at full speed. (this is just what I think there is going on. totally not based on actual science!!)

Please allow me to explain.

Does one remember when I asked to hold ones buttocks most recently?

Well that was a single wired 35-70-35 coil in but 3mm.

When spun over close to the magnets it spewed out an insane amount of vAC. More insane than I have ever seen in similar conditions with only the coil as parameter. It was for sure the most impressive voltage generation I have ever seen in my line of testing yet. In that context of course. Sure I have seen higher values but that was because the coils were more potent.



Now please remember how sad I was when I was unable to demonstrate a beneficial voltage generation ability when a similar coil was backed up by iron powder.
Yeah that pretty much stopped me dead in my believe that I can think of new ways of demonstrating my hypotheses. I for one for now still do not know any other experiment I can try.

Well 2 things turned out in favor of good old iron powder in the long run. Hahah what did you expect gang? That I would lets things go that fast?

It turns out that having the coil legs of this said coil being backed by iron powder legs then the field it produces at 32 vDC is around 13 mT rather than the 10mT when not backed.
Ok Ok I'll be honest. I am not even sure I actually correlate those two findings. So just let us put that in the freezer for now.

And then of course the second thing which was actually not a new thing but the insane heat dissipation enhancement it all brings.

So I am going to take shortcuts now as I can't create charts that will satisfy everyone.

So I will make the next few posts on what charts I am going to make and then allow for suggestions on how to fine tune them before I actually start going deep and start endless measurements.

Also I have some other good news. Remember when I said that 3mm was minimum? (the narrower one can make a coil the more field it will produce where it matters (close to the magnets)) Hahahah turns out though that that was not even the minimum thickness.

Nah, this will be my baseline coil after some consideration. I have one thing holding me back though. Perhaps a 35-70-70-35 configuration would be better. Please share your thoughts.




The niche part about this test coil is is that it is but 10mm thick while boasting a litz wire of 5 x 0.4 mm.
One thing I do know already is that but 1 wire out of that lists wire will produce around 7 mT at 32 vDC. But my lab equipment is not up to the job when exposed to 5 times this simple coil. It just starts being unable to just blast on.
Anyway with my farmers logic I get to around 35 mT.

wait what? 35 mT holy smokes!! if that is true.

Yeah my thoughts exactly. I hate it when a plan does not come together as I clearly did not buy the correct lab equipment to be able to run scientific analysis at this scale.

More to follow on how I plan to document things before we actually go and do it.

{1}this is the magnet configuration


{/1}

[brandnewb]

anyway gang. I could spend time on lifting over images which I had hoped to be pasted ove via clipboard. But ok let us not dwell.

The question I do have is since I am steamrolling towards something concrete is are we still here interested?

I mean I just soo much would like for joe to jump back on the wagon again but OKEAY. I can only want and never more than that. It is rather upsetting though that one leadsa towards a cliff and then when the legion is before it does not explain how to jump from it.

Just please realize that I then am going to make my own way on how to make a test to see what a coil magnet configuration can do. And then these results will be hung proud and ready for criticism.

But when those voices come soo late it leaves an after taste.

However.

Never in scientific development is it too late to jump in and challenge a statement. NEVER.

[JW]

We recently fixed the image upload function, this happed to all users not just you.

[brandnewb]

that is good news JW.

anyway I am going to do the following.

Just hook up this test coil and hook up an amp meter while the coils is shorted.

then just ramp up the motor speed until the coil stabilzes at 70C.

then open up the coil to no longer be shorted and measaurew the voltage.

and then we have our wattage capabilities?

is it that simple?

[MattM]

Brandnewb, do not tease us lol

[brandnewb]

hahsah brother. You know I am not a tease. I often get right into business

anyway gang.

Please review this better representation of the magnet configuration.
I am moving forward yet there is still time to raise objections or improvements to the way I represent my setup/

The setup is what it is and I am past the point of no return now to change that unless I find something wild that changes my mind.



I will make sure to measure all of the positions I think are of interest in terms of magnetic field to start with.

{1}
Is everyone still in the believe this is going to suck in terms of wattage capabilities?

I for one never did.

I just cant see yet why it would not blow things out of the water. But I am always open to be wrong.
{/1}

[brandnewb]

from this point in time I vote to have this kind of ground work be done before one starts selling a PMA.

NO

I propose that at least there should be done the next;

* voltage over frequency (try and convert that to RPM)
* amperage at RMP
* heat at given RPM

Now I might have just never read in all the literature online or also in the books I have been persuaded to go and buy because there is where the knowledge lies.

I will admit though that the source material is full of the good stuff. This is defensively one should use as a primer.

Yet in this fringe case there are o rules yet. I get to set them when I see fit.


we are beyond this point. Now we get to use more tools like the  tesla meter. j

{1}I meant to say that most senior members while "helping" me never really were able to then go at it and help me understand

I mean sure i am below well informed. Also slow of grasp.
Yet I am smart enough to know that that is not really a good reason to stop helping.
{/1}

[brandnewb]

Brandnewb, do not tease us lol

No really Brother. I need to know what you actually meant to convey!!

[Bruce S]

Brandnewb, do not tease us lol

No really Brother. I need to know what you actually meant to convey!!

I'm guessing he meant it as a joke to help lighten the mood, especially after the long awaited return to being able to post picks again.

Bruce S

[brandnewb]

Thank you Bruce,

understood gang.

I am still open to some more of this mental support like Bruce et al. have been displaying,

Look I am a small fish playing with big concepts. It is easy enough to just accept defeat.

[brandnewb]

I have an idea.

As I am a genuine owner of the books that were laid out to be paramount else not ever get there.

Also it has been said  that concrete questions will be entertained by said author.

Would not this be a right time in time to ask for a 2nd opinion? more over from the man himself?

I am just looking to see where I derailed with my logic. Unless I ever did of course.

I am open to a vote to see if we should wake up the minds behind the minds

[MattM]

Your project has an audience.  We await pictures.

[brandnewb]

well then do not bring forth said prophets if no one is willing to follow/defend them.
I have many more of these ideas regarding topics.

I realize I am loud. But this message is important.

I am sure you all can translate these ramblings. if not I am open for dialogue

[JW]

Check it out, we follow a standard of logic here, Basically we are a group of engineers. You are operating 3 ideas at once.

carry on.

[JW]

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm%27s_law

The 3 forms of the math equations you see on that first page is what I'm referring to.

[MagnetJuice]

well then do not bring forth said prophets if no one is willing to follow/defend them.

Name those prophets so they can defend themselves or for someone else to defend them.

[brandnewb]

I am happy to see at least I am still being challenged about my statements.
Which his good and important!!

I am less so thrilled about amonsts other my dear brother ED. And Joe.

Look brothers. I will understand that you have more important things to do than to educate a lost sole like my self.

But when inserting information / ideas and then to not follow up on the to be expected followups that then becomes in my books a bit less about helping and a little more about unintened confusion that might follow.

Anyways I was refering to the authors of the books / projects. You all know who I am talking about I just donit have it on hand right now.

The point I made earlier is that I bought both books of. yes finally I remember while typing. Mr Piggot. And I bought all magnets as suggested based on a design by the other 'prophet'

@magnetjuice, I think for now the focus should not be on your involvement as I am still figuring out on how to quantify.

Anyway there I went buying books either paperback or e-form.

This was me signaling to the ones helping/ (or al least signaling to me that I am bonkers and here you can get your head checked) me that I am willing to take drastic measures and leave no stone unturned.

My findings (with my limited reading capabilities) that any of those sources do not explain well how to use the findings in those resources to be of benefit to what it is I am trying to do.
And then the discussion died out pretty quicly as it seems the ones promoting said material also did not know how to deal with that one.

Sure I have been advised here before that Mr Piggot is open to concrete questions but for the life of me I dare not even start asking him as I do not even know how to properly condense these years of efforts I have under my belt.

Now by the tone of your question to me it still makes me think that I am more of a nuance than of a potential benefit. I am so sorry I come accros like that to some.

But in the end of the day I will go and do what needs to be done my dear brother. I hope you can help me out. Actually without your help and of other great minds this project is going to take much more time and perhaps even end up doing the opposite as it is inteded to.

You see if I build my premises and conclusions an based on bad understanding because I have not been challenged by the people in the know while I was forming ideas and plans.

Then my results, that I believe are trustworthy. Might actually serve as a base line for new generations while the results were never sound to begin with.


The moral of this all is that I still think I should just keep experimenting. Like just throw stuff on the wall and see what sticks kind of method.
The big difference with some charlatans is that I will fully show what never even reached the wall as well as what does stick.
My reputation depends on honesty.

{1}
hahha actually NO. I will not show anything that does not stick or not even reaches the wall. That is just too much of a burden.

the amount of tests I have run, some of them complete bonkers. is well..... bonkers

But I guess you have gotten the jist yes?
{/1}


EDIT: please never mistake me again for someone that just rambles for the rambling only.

Sure I invented rambling but I always have my ethics to back it up when challenged.

So here you go.

[Mary B]

Make coils, build machine, test, make a new stator if needed, test, revamp the structural parts as needed, test... some things CAN NOT be 10% decided on pen and paper... guys with access to supercomputers even make mistakes running their models!

[brandnewb]

#1
OK dear Ed,

I am now going to make profound statement that does include you. My dear brother.

You see that is was your mention that the earlier magnets had a (but) 1.2KW potential.

And then I asked publicly to lean more of course.

Well that never happened that then the following happened.

I just took that statement as a given and then become really worried as my project should certainly do an insane amount more that that does not it?

hahah we all know what happened next.

Yes I bought an extra 96 of these magnets. And these suggestions came @warpspeed. he is one of those contributors that comes in and then helps and then forgoes to contribute
(I mean certainly now you know that there are many many reasons that more than 3 phase is something to consider yes??
Ok now we have that part done and dealt with unless one is willing to challenge the 7 phase P&F setup.

#2
so you see how much the words of perceived higher powers can influence the actions of new comers like my self?

I am just happy that I always bounce back.

this is warning to all with power.

use it well and then you may lead us.

until such time we see that it is no longer used well.

#3

Make coils, build machine, test, make a new stator if needed, test, revamp the structural parts as needed, test... some things CAN NOT be 10% decided on pen and paper... guys with access to supercomputers even make mistakes running their models!

lMay/ I have tired to give the best response I cane to give.  For more than 20 minutes.I give up It is an actual really involved process  so I am actually not wanting to this this any longer

#4

Your project has an audience.  We await pictures.

sorry my dear bother. I realize now that I am failing to hold 2 channels in equal status.
Especial since one is in dire need of some basic upgrades.

Anyway brother.

Please help me out here. What images should I still deliver?

I am at your service!!

#5

Make coils, build machine, test, make a new stator if needed, test, revamp the structural parts as needed, test... some things CAN NOT be 10% decided on pen and paper... guys with access to supercomputers even make mistakes running their models!

Thank you love. you are one of the few voices of reason that is sooo much needed

#6

Make coils, build machine, test, make a new stator if needed, test, revamp the structural parts as needed, test... some things CAN NOT be 10% decided on pen and paper... guys with access to supercomputers even make mistakes running their models!

I so want to get to meet you once.

when is the next get to gether.

BTW, I am somewhat of an in the middle person.

Some cops see my credentials and welcome me and some do the opposite

hahha weird yes?

Well it is true no the less.

#7

Check it out, we follow a standard of logic here, Basically we are a group of engineers. You are operating 3 ideas at once.

carry on.

dear brother.

I will admit that I sometimes are more loud then is normal.


I will also even admit that sometimes I even just spew out incoherence stuff. 
We all know it. we have had a good night out on the town with friends  and got a little closer to existential nihilism than one should have.

Ahh yes we all remember the next day yes? in where we vow to never drink again.


hahah that lasted but 1 hour while you drink your left overs to get rid of that headache.

Now of course this is just a comic representation of what a young student might experience.
But are we not all in many ways still young and students?

[TechAdmin]

@brandnewb this one comes from me, next time you post SEVEN times in a row (as in multiple times) I will personally mute you, you've been asked multiple times over and over again to edit your posts. There is absolutely no reason to do that, I will say JW had far too little patience about it but I can't say he's wrong about it if you check the attached screenshot. It kills visibility for other active topics and it's rude. Last warning.

[brandnewb]

I am not sure how to respond.

I though that activity was a good thing

And if there was too much of activity then it would be a simple tweak to the software,

I will give some pseudo code

If  source of message == source of message  && ( timedetalawithlastmessage)

I mean if I am able to drown out the stuff here while I have so many important things to add then let us us really figure out how to solve it.

I have always known that this simple machine software 3was a bit too simple. I am ready to help

[TechAdmin]

Activity is fantastic and we appreciate your enthusiasm, but not at the cost of drowning everyone else's posts
Can I install a mod to prevent people from posting twice in a row? Yes, but is it really necessary to block users from doing something that can be occasionally useful just to prevent these kind of things? In my opinion it isn't, it hasn't been an issue for many years.

[brandnewb]

ok then unless Ed and Joe will reconsider their stance on letting me hang or actually helping me  I will just for now wait until better minds come with better suggestions I can not know when I will erupt again but please trust that my lava is always reasonabl

Now dear TechAdmin. I think you trust that I hold you high to that is why I made my choices.

[JW]

 If I may 

cooking some frozen Tilapia in the George Forman grill, have some good spice. looking forward to it.

Now we can use this off the grid.   

[Mary B]

ok then unless Ed and Joe will reconsider their stance on letting me hang or actually helping me  I will just for now wait until better minds come with better suggestions I can not know when I will erupt again but please trust that my lava is always reasonabl

Now dear TechAdmin. I think you trust that I hold you high to that is why I made my choices.

a while back I suggested starting a daily post in word pad or other editor.

That way as you go thru the day you can add to and edit it and post on coherent response...

As is what we see is disjointed rambling that does NOT tell a story

[brandnewb]

Yes Mam,

Mary I think you already can trust I love you.

Now hold on to your buttocks everyone because this is going to be an earth shaker.

82 watts!! power potential in a mere 5 x 0.4 mm lits wired coil at a 35-70-35 configuration.

It was Mary that did nudge me to try out the wire in hand stuff of which I never found anything. But it did lead me to the Litz concept.

But shall I be honest? Why is Litz a thing? I mean running wires in parallel has been before us since when these scientific ideas were formed yes?

82 watt!!  I hope I am not mistaken.