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471
Other / Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Last post by george65 on January 10, 2018, 05:09:35 AM »

How do I supplement power from the grid with a generator with out batteries?

Good question!

It's not hard to do but I'd like to hear how you think you are going to do it with a steam turbine which I believe atm is your very preferred option.

Also, do you know how much power you use a week/ month/ year? If you want to generate it's good to know how much you consume.
472
Polls / Re: Why did you get involved in alternative energy?
« Last post by clockmanFRA on January 10, 2018, 04:01:44 AM »
I did not fill this Poll in, as the possible answers were far to flippant/light weight.

Folk across the world would have contributed to this important POLL subject, Alternative Energy, if it was better thought out.

On many World wide Forums I see people who are studying RE etc, and they have a overcomplicated search Monkey Polls, which have silly questions that are obviously biased towards a particular outcome. But at least they are trying.

Come on Fieldlines, do a real POLL survey.

More Suggested Questions for the POLL,

1.     RE, because I had a philosophy of trying to save this Planet for my children's children.

2.     RE, Making  a lot of my own stuff, As a cost effective solution for power generation in todays world.

3.    The main utility Grid has become so unreliable with more than 20 outages, minutes to days, each year.

4.    Education, to pass on, open information to the next generation. 


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Other / Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Last post by george65 on January 10, 2018, 03:30:05 AM »

If I remember correctly, you do something like convert the grid to DC and back again.  If that is skirting the rules than you would be exempted from my statement.

Solar converts DC to AC though and inverter and feeds it back into the house hold circuits and then into the grid if there is any excess.

I do the same only because I have old meters, it winds them backwards.
This means I get a 1:1 ratio of the power I input to the power I take back out.  No, that is not completely legit according to our rules here because they want you to have a meter that measures what you put in and a meter that counts what you use.
They pay you .6c Kwh for what you put in and charge you ( at least)  30 C Kwh for what you use.

My setup would be skirting the rules but like you, I don't give flying F... Duck.  If that's skirting the rules and eliminates me from the claim, so be it.  I'm winning every every day and saving a fortune.

Quote
How do I supplement power from the grid with a generator with out batteries?  When the generator is down I will be using a lot of unnecessary grid power because a motor is just not designed to run all the time.

Same way I will when I get my new generator setup.
There are a couple of ways actually.

Hook up an induction motor to your engine and hook that to the power outlet.  Drive the AC motor a bit more than 10% overspeed. The motor will turn into a generator that is phase locked to the grid and push power back into your home. You will need to be grid connected to do this.  If you have an electronic or smart meter, any power you are not using that goes into the grid will likely be metered as consumption and you will be charged for it.  Thes will happen any way you generate power unless you turn the grid connection off.

Second way  is to drive a generator with your engine and rectify the power back to DC. Hook the output to a solar or grid tie inverter like a power jack.  It will feed power back into the house and excess to the grid.
You can do the exact same thing with solar panels.  If you are making 1.5 KW and you are using 2KW in the house, there will only be 1.5 Kw coming from the grid.

It is completely impractical to have ANY sort of generator running 24/7. Turbine, diesel whatever.
IF you have access to a water supply for 6 Months of the year say, I'd be using hydro power when you could and supplementing it with solar if you  dont get too much snow. Solar works really well in snow due to cool panels and the high reflected brightness.

You won't elimitate your bills but the best option for you is like me, just minimise them as much as you can.

Again, If you think a steam turbine will be practical to run more than a diesel, you have much more still to learn.

Do you know how much power you use on average for a week or a month/ year?  Before you go planing any sort of generation you need to know how much you need to generate in the first place.
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Other / Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Last post by MAL on January 10, 2018, 03:05:35 AM »
Hi George,

I don't have this quote thing figured out, but your quote is in bold


"A generator burning 1 litre a minute of oil would set the wires running to the powerpole from your house alight. The average home would probably peak out max draw at around 20 kw and for a lot of the time you'd probably be pulling 3-5 less air, electric cooking and water heating which are all intermittent loads."

A oil burner putting out 600kw was what I was watching Now if that oil burner was making steam, I have been told that the steam engine is 3% efficient.  That would take that 600kw down to 18kw.  I am sure my math is flawed, but that was what I was getting at.

Here is what I like about the "Energy Bootlegger"  It makes heat, electricity and wood gas. I don't know if I would use the wood gas but It would be fun.  It is a very simple design. I am not sure how it could blow up if it had 5  pressure relief valves,  The boiler is inside a 1/4 steel stove and it could have a blast shield.  If It was fired by rocket stoves, a thermal switch could shut the air and the fire is out almost instantly...the water would take a while to cool but there is probably an answer for that too if I keep digging around.  Super heated steam looks scary...I saw a cotton ball explode into flames when it touched super heated steam.

I don't think the Wisco Kid has more that $500 into his setup

What I don't like about it...well...that I don't have one.  But I don't want to waist a penny on something that might not work, so I will keep reading.
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Other / Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Last post by MAL on January 10, 2018, 02:15:10 AM »
MAL I can handle anything computer wise, that's not what im talking about. We need to figure out how to make new posts that cover relevant info. Show me a broken post and we can rebuild it or make a new one. When it comes down to it I have wasted thousands of dollars on this site.

So where does that leave us. The site is not cost efficient so should give up on it like you propose?

I hope you don't give up on the site.  It Is not in my nature to waste anything...well...except my time. :)

I don't know if you can recover a picture or not.  I hunted down a picture from Smoggy turnip and it wasn't there when I found it.  It was a picture of a coil winder for a one piece phase of coils...no inner splices between coils.  Here is the link if you can recover them. 

https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,128233.msg825686.html#msg825686
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Other / Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Last post by MAL on January 10, 2018, 01:37:37 AM »

[/quote]

Without a clear definition, I am beating grid price with my solar setup.
The cost of what I have so far was recovered in the savings on 2 Bills.  I am paying about 1/4 of what I did before on electric bills and now the initial savings have covered the investement, that's beating grid price to me.

If you are talking about stand alone power, then I would say it's difficult but not impossible to do.  For most people though, You can't make 100% of your power cheaper than you can buy it from the grid.....

Which brings me back to the question, why do you want to setup and run a steamer/ pelton turbine given this is the case you acknowledge?
[/quote]
I messed up the quote function trying to get rid of the double quote so I don't get in trouble again, my post starts below
If I remember correctly, you do something like convert the grid to DC and back again.  If that is skirting the rules than you would be exempted from my statement.

I am not going to go on a long political rant.  My reason for wanting to create power is because the government is committing mortal sin with my tax dollars according to my belief system.  So I need to reduce my taxable transactions so that I am not funding it.

I am not at all about following the rules unless the consequences are too severe.

I don't think that I can go completely off grid...I wood love to, but It is not practical.

Just because I haven't mentioned maintenance and refueling doesn't mean that I think any system is plug and play or set it and forget it.  I am more than willing to use my labor to save money even when it doesn't make sense to do so.

 I do believe that it is possible to beat the grid, But it has to be done like Junkyard Wars  (It's a tv show, I don't have cable so I don't get it, but it is a cool show if it is still on)

How do I supplement power from the grid with a generator with out batteries?  When the generator is down I will be using a lot of unnecessary grid power because a motor is just not designed to run all the time.
477
Transportation / Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Last post by jlsoaz on January 10, 2018, 01:01:09 AM »








I've driven a 1st gen Tesla if that counts. Even have a pic of me just before I got in it. A very well respected person and friend up in Milwaukee , bought one and knowing my connection to this forum, allowed me to drive it.
We've also owned for about 5 years? an 48V 550Watt street legal scooter. This our daughter used for daily commuting which helped our Botanical gardens decide to install EV charging stations :). Alas their connectors do not match ours, easy enough to build an adapter, but when the scooter can make it home and still have 1/3 charge I'll keep it they way it is.

I've also used it to test different battery chemistries. FLA, SLA, NiCd, NiMh, and borrowing from a fellow member who built his own, used extra batteries to extend the distances.

Another long time poster "commanda" also has/had a road legal e-motorcycle that blows our away.

Back a few years there was a whole bunch of threads about e-bikes, it may be of some help too as it also dealt with distances.

Cheers
Bruce S

Hi Bruce:

In the late 90s and early 2000s I lived in Southern California while the first Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) mandate was going on.  I couldn't afford to lease one of the rare EVs that was allowed into the wild (and for the most part none were for sale though eventually Toyota relented and sold some, I don't recall if many others).  However, I did take the opportunity to rent some (such as at the Budget rent-a-car at LAX, so that was how I did end up driving an EV1 once or twice.  I've never driven a Tesla though I've recently been in a couple of different models and a friend leasing a Model X was able to stop at my house and charge up.  Anyway, I found it invaluable to rent and drive those vehicles even if just for a little while, and even if all I did was confirm my suspicions as to pros and cons of the vehicles, and so I'm guessing being able to drive that Tesla a bit gave you some improved idea of things, or at least underscored some of your existing knowledge.

After those early-days test-drives, one of the things that I would express to folks was that, notwithstanding some of the negatives of electric vehicles (such as range before refueling) and apart from any environmental debates, it could be argued that in some ways EVs are simply better vehicles.  I think the reduced Noise Vibration and Harshness in a really good EV is something quite valuable and makes me want to drive the vehicle more.  Further, some EVs have excellent and very smooth acceleration.  The Tesla Model S has supplanted many Mercedes S-Class, BMW 7 Series and Audi A8 sales around the world and I think part of how that has happened is that, in some ways, it is simply a better vehicle.  If someone one had told me that a new American car company would come along and start from scratch and start to supplant such elite luxury sedan sales, I'd express skepticism.  Yet, somehow, that is what Tesla has done.  it is an amazing feat, and I think part of what made it possible is that EVs are, in some ways, simply better cars, even if in other ways they are worse.
478
Other / Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Last post by george65 on January 10, 2018, 12:44:43 AM »
...and not one person has claimed to be able to beat the grid price.

Without a clear definition, I am beating grid price with my solar setup.
The cost of what I have so far was recovered in the savings on 2 Bills.  I am paying about 1/4 of what I did before on electric bills and now the initial savings have covered the investement, that's beating grid price to me.

If you are talking about stand alone power, then I would say it's difficult but not impossible to do.  For most people though, You can't make 100% of your power cheaper than you can buy it from the grid.....

Which brings me back to the question, why do you want to setup and run a steamer/ pelton turbine given this is the case you acknowledge?
479
Other / Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Last post by JW on January 10, 2018, 12:44:18 AM »
MAL I can handle anything computer wise, that's not what im talking about. We need to figure out how to make new posts that cover relevant info. Show me a broken post and we can rebuild it or make a new one. When it comes down to it I have wasted thousands of dollars on this site.

So where does that leave us. The site is not cost efficient so should give up on it like you propose? 
480
Other / Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Last post by george65 on January 10, 2018, 12:35:36 AM »
Hi George,

I didn't realise that you were in the unwanted  hair removal business. 

It's not the unwanted hair removal that's the problem. It's the hair You WANT that gets removed that causes the issues!  :0)

Quote

What is the reality of a diesel generator. 
I need to find used french fry oil...should be doable

I need to filter the oil...There should be a good youtube video on the subject 

 Will the generator need modifications to work?

I am not interested in batteries so the connections will be a learning experience no matter what I do. 

Yes, Finding oil is essential like finding woodchips in your previous example would be.
yes, you have to filter it. I have a couple of vids on it and with the right setup there is minimal hands on time.
Generator ( engine ) wouldn't need any real mods if you are somewhere where it does not snow. If it does you'd want to mix a bit of petrol in with the oil.

I'd say buying and installing a generator and filtering oil would be a hell of a lot less steep a learning curve than designing, building and setting up a boiler and steam engine and generator head.

Quote
With no batteries the generator will have to run 24/7/365  I don't see how that works. I don't think My meter will run backwards,  They do not do net metering here.  I don't think a fueled generator is practical with out batteries unless there is something that I am not seeing.

Now here is the real crux of things, exactly what is it you want to do? Go off grid completely?
If that's the case, I think you are looking at it the complete  wrong way. If you want to supplement your grid power, then a generator on veg or a steamer is perfect. If you think running any engine 24/7 is practical, steamer or otherwise, I think you need to do more reading and get the practical insights I was talking about.

Quote
A Pelton wheel is designed to run all the time

I'm thinking with comments like that, with respect, you have an awful lot to learn about this. ALL of this.
I know beans about steam but I know you are dreaming if you think you are going to set something DIY up, get it going and have the thing running unattended 24/7.  That is neither safe nor practical and you are going to need to spend a LOT of time on it.
A boiler that was to run unattended would need a lot of sophisticated automation to work  like that and if you think you are going to set something up  for a couple of grand that will do it, I think you are going to be in for a severe wake up call.

Quote
If I decide to do steam I have an underground bomb shelter to put it in.

I don't think a bomb shelter is designed to put Bombs IN it and that is essentially what you'd be doing with your idea of a constantly running DIY steamer left unattended. You'd get away with it for a while but one day, all the planets will line up the wrong way and it would not be good. You also seem to want to abide by rules and regulations.  if you want to do that with a steam engine of any type, good luck. First you'll need a ( Firemans?) certificate. Your boiler will have to be certified regularly.  Your equipment will have to be tested. You'll need permission from your local city authourity and maybe the fire dept.  Don't like your chances of getting any of it if you are in a residential area.
Would be a complex and long term ordeal to get it anywhere and I have severe doubts if you'd ever be allowed to put it in a basement rather than an out building a minimum distance away of a conforming construction.  Not going to be cheap, practical or worth while.

Quote
In one of your videos you mentioned that one liter per minute is a 600kw flame.  Does that convert to electricity?  I suppose one would have to know the efficiency and losses of all the components along the way to the breaker box, but is there a ballpark figure?  That just sounds like It could take a lot of oil...and an electric fan for the forced air.  I could be wrong but oil looks costly even if it is free.

A generator burning 1 litre a minute of oil would set the wires running to the powerpole from your house alight. The average home would probably peak out max draw at around 20 kw and for a lot of the time you'd probably be pulling 3-5 less air, electric cooking and water heating which are all intermittent loads.

The Lister in the vid would do 3kw output and burn about 1 Litre of oil an HOUR.  You may get up to 5KW of heat, depending how well the exchangers were set up.

But this is all getting ahead of yourself, a lot. First what is it you want to do?  Have total power independence , ie, Off grid or stay on grid and offset your power bill?.  If you want to be self sufficient but not have batteries, you are most likely going to have to make some distinct lifestyle adjustments or spend a lot more than it's worth on automation be it for steam or anything else.
Begs the question though, why do you want power when you are sleeping?
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