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481
Other / Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Last post by JW on January 08, 2018, 09:50:07 PM »
Quote from: MAL
When I look at all this wind and solar, I see a total failure.

Quote from: MAL
I am having trouble understanding how this is so inefficient.  For starters It should heat the house. Next It should produce some electricity...and if it makes wood gas on top of that...well...It should be at least  4% efficient ;D 

Look closely....
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/carnot.html
482
Other / Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Last post by MAL on January 08, 2018, 09:41:51 PM »
Hi George, 

Good chat with ya again.  I did not see the link to the other steam generator...I will go back and look. 

I am having trouble understanding how this is so inefficient.  For starters It should heat the house. Next It should produce some electricity...and if it makes wood gas on top of that...well...It should be at least  4% efficient ;D 

Tree services just dump shredded trees at the mulch plant near by...fuel should be free or even if I had to pay something it should be almost nothing.  Shredded trees burn hot...no cutting and splitting, just feeding the feeder.

 I have a pile of steel, a concrete fruit cellar to put it in and half of the parts for a home made axle machine.  I cant see putting more than a thousand dollars into this thing.  So if all it does is heat my home It is a success.

Correct me where I am wrong, but I thought that Rocket stoves were known for there efficiency.  A well built stove will shoot a torch like flame out the top while burning kindling.  I have not built one so I am probably wrong on that too.

What will work?...I don't care what doesn't work.  I'm looking for something that will work.  When I look at all this wind and solar, I see a total failure.  If it costs more than the power company charges, that's a failure, unless you have no grid to tie into anyway.  If you have to spend 20 yrs of research and development, that's a failure, unless you bring it to the market...and I don't care about that.

I have thought about a diesel generator, but the thought of batteries makes the idea a failure from a cost perspective.  Maintenance and  replacement cost are a deal killer. 

You seam to think steam will work if you use a turbo...ok I will put a turbo on it, low pressure high volume.  now why wont it work?

This wasn't written with attitude, so don't read it that way...just having fun!!!
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Other / Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Last post by JW on January 08, 2018, 09:17:18 PM »
Mal if you have to split hairs we could try this topic... http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,146641.30.html

Im using a piston engine and am getting better than 30%eff I would be more than happy to explain why
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Solar / Re: "Nonstandard" uses & hookups for Schneider XW+ 5548 (& co.)
« Last post by jenkinswt on January 08, 2018, 08:59:52 PM »
There's nothing wrong with using the generators waste heat but if your not needing it to charge then why not use a ventless gas heater or electric on a thermostat just above freezing? That way it should be less fuel waste on the generator, less wear and tear, etc.

How big is your shed? If it's well insulated and small, etc. Then it probably wouldn't take much to keep it above freezing. I have a similar situation where I have running water in a shed that I need to keep above freezing. It's currently a very drafty shed but I have a heat exchanger running from a wood boiler and its working for now but I plan to tighten the shed up some. I'm off grid as well but I despise running the generator and avoid it as much as I can.
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Other / Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Last post by JW on January 08, 2018, 08:39:27 PM »
Mal just nevermind, thanks for making this topic
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Other / Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Last post by MAL on January 08, 2018, 08:16:43 PM »
This isn't going to be easy JW, but I'll give it a shot.

When I replied to George and said that I thought he was "being a little tough on the Wisco Kid"  You replied to me and said

"Im talking about the guy in the first post...

He has got the dam thing built into his house."

I don't know what you said about the guy in the first post...not to mention I was the guy that posted the first post...and you were the first one to post after that.   I have come to realize that You were probably talking about the guy that built the "Energy Bootlegger" in the video, but I am not sure what you said about him that prompted the reply to me.  I have reread your post and I don't see anything that you said that could be considered "being a little tough on the Wisco Kid"  The "Wisco Kid" is what the youtuber calls himself.

I hope that helps
487
Other / Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Last post by Mary B on January 08, 2018, 08:14:32 PM »
Be far better off creating wood gas then running a small engine with a generator. Higher efficiency.
488
Other / Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Last post by george65 on January 08, 2018, 07:57:57 PM »
It seems like you  think it would be a good idea while you continue to "through cold water on it" :) 

I'm mainly throwing water on his approach. Despite his achievements, what he has is inefficen't, time consuming to run, has low output and is impractical in several area's.  To power ones house or workshop there are better ways like the guy in the other vids linked. He works on a much more useful setup  and has a target of 100Kwh a day. That's substantial and I think he has made the thing very practical and real world useful as well.


Quote
You keep calling it a bladeless Tesla, but I think it has blades like a Pelton Wheel. 

It was the stoner Hippy that said his turbine was a tesla. I don't really know or for that matter care what it is. When i hear that term to me it's the same as saying " free energy". Anything after i know is going to be a load of BS and turn off. The other guy tried a tesla but moved on and was objective about it unlike most of the other nutters that are convinced they are the cure for the worlds ills and have a chip on their shoulder to prove it.

I think steam is interesting but I also think that it's beyond the realm of  most to make practical for home power generation. That Don guy has been at it a long time and tested a lot of different engines and he will probably come up with something worth while. I get the idea that he wants to dispose of waste from his shop as well as make power and heat so is not spending time harvesting fuel.

JW's case is different again where he wants a certain type of power for a mobile application very different to running his house off.

A lot of this stuff is fun to talk about and play with but there is a point where you are doing it for the hell of doing it, not because it's the best thing to do.  I want to get the twin lister and 6 Kw genny I just bought and hook that up to supply power to the house. I can feed it off Veg oil and this will be infinitely easier to setup, cheaper to buy, far less time consuming to run, safer and just a better option for me. Still not cheaper than mains power but that's another issue.

For that Don Guy, I can well see using resources he has to utilise steam is a good thing for him.

I don't know running a superheater would take much more fuel, depends on how you went about it I spose.  I did some cracking / Pyrolising experiments cracking oil and found a superheat was the trick to good quality output.  All I did was run the output pipe back through the fire on it's way out so the thing ran red hot literally. Raising the temp of anything requires energy but it may also increase efficiency so cancel out.

Fuel consumption is why I would have any steamer oil fired. I know how much damn wood a home heater takes and the work in cutting and splitting it.  Mrs wants a wood fire heater here. I said only if she gets the wood because I'm not doing it and I'm not paying for it which is the most expensive form of heating of all.

For efficiency, lets say you had a pile of 100 pieces of wood all the same. Can be any size you imagine, they are just the same size.
3% efficiency would mean that 3 out of that pile of 100 actually did the work you wanted. That means in this case, drive the generator. you'd have mechanical and electrical losses from there so maybe 1 piece in 100 of those bits of wood actually gave you usable energy.
Compare that with a Diesel ( or petrol) engine where you have 100 bottles of fuel the same size.
 About 33 of those are going to give you usable energy as against 3 in the steamer which is much more efficient and a big reason steam went out of favour.

489
Solar / Re: "Nonstandard" uses & hookups for Schneider XW+ 5548 (& co.)
« Last post by bergmanj on January 08, 2018, 07:10:29 PM »
Hi.

Thanks for the responses: I am charging batteries when gen is running - to me, it would be a waste to not use the available power.  Let me explain further, though; as, I have the feeling that my actual query was misunderstood too narrowly [not well explained by me].

So, am I misunderstanding both of your comments?: Prime Mover waste heat is already being used for heat when needed - so how is using electric heater more efficient in the whole scheme of things?  Yes, I'm aware that electric heat is 100% efficient when converting electric power to heat.  But, to me, using gen waste heat is even more efficient fuel use for heating; especially when I can use the electric output too.

As an example: Utility power is typically generated by burning coal to make steam to drive a turbine to spin a generator to supply electrical power to "the grid" (I've previously worked at a 1,000 MW utility plant as an Instrument and Controls Tech.).

In this process, the stoichiometric "efficiency" of burning coal (a chemical oxidizing process) is typically around 38% (and burning coal at home to extract it's heat would typically be around 25%), the boiler/turbine power conversion is about 50%, Generator around 95%, various transmission and distribution losses typically bring the coal's heating efficiency down to between 7 to 14% efficiency by the time it hits your home power outlet as available electricity.  [Scientific American and several others have had many referenced articles published over the last 40 years on this very subject.]

My use of propane as fuel for my generator "wastes" about 33% as heat and water vapor out the exhaust, another 33% as dissipated [radiated] engine heat, and about 33% to drive the generator. with the generator at ~70% efficiency. So, my over-all fuel efficiency from propane to electricity is about 25%  -  somewhere near double the efficiency of the utility's power.  The only reason that utility power is several times less costly per KWH than my own fuel-generated power is that the coal is very cheap for them to buy. 

So, if I want heat, my most efficient use of fuel is to directly burn it, without any intermediate energy conversions.  For my shed, I would best use propane by installing a propane heater.

In the absence of that option, I use the generator's prime mover [IC engine] waste heat when needed.

My original point here is to find out if anyone else, or anyplace else, is another source for various "unorthodox" use of the new XW+ controls I have available - the need for heat is not my sole basis for my initial query - just a starting point for "unorthodox" use discussion.  I'd really very much prefer to not "re-invent the wheel" if others already have.

Further comments from you two, others?

Thanks much, JLB




490
Other / Re: Wood fired steam generator
« Last post by JW on January 08, 2018, 06:53:17 PM »
Mal use preview you can see what your quotes look like.
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