Fieldlines.com: The Otherpower discussion board
Miscellaneous => Logged in diaries => Topic started by: brandnewb on December 13, 2023, 11:34:03 AM
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This will be my placeholder for when I am granted to move misplaced post here.
This will be about a most unusual VAWT and what happens during its conception, erection, panic stages, demolition, service/upgrade and hopefully finally vindication.
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OK here goes nothing!
-- here needs a lot of prior content but we will deal with that later--
Dear Mary. You said there is a reason you oversize your towers? I listened ;) look this
https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=150839.0;attach=15743;image
Now these m24 cable tensioners are not only large but also guaranteed to be fit for purpose. I am not sure if I can name brand names but if I did then everyone would understand that this is what one buys if one needs to know it is good. Never mind the cost.
{1} this crappy carabine hook is not part of the part. I just forgot to remove it before I took the picture{1}
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Does this diary mean I am free to spam the reply button at will? because if it is then expect some updates that are not related to any question. Only my mind telling me that I want to throw something out in the world of like minded people.
Most of the times it is just ramblings.
But when I start with wow or WOW then one better pay attention. At least that is how I envision things.
I can respect that I live in my own bubble but then again. I might just surprise all of us, even me ;)
It is also perfectly possible that this all leads no where. I am just not convinced yet that it will.
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and I can respect that for someone that does not know me it is first see then believe.
challenge accepted ;)
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brandnewb
Let's not use the word SPAM. That has a connotation of ilk. :-X
I get SPAM RISK calls to my phone and get SPAM in the email addresses almost everyday.
You are more than welcome to continue to add "updates" here by using the reply.
Bruce S
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yes sir! understood. I did not mean it in a nasty way. But I agree the sound of the word is not the best.
Back to the story at hand.
While taking a break from rebuilding the Apache I get to spend some time on what JW was correctly warning about. Eddy currents.
Up until this point I have just made assumptions that because the iron powder is not electro conductive any issues with eddy currents will be tiny. More so than with traditional techniques.
I would like to make sure.
Is there any experiment I can run to demonstrate if there are eddy current issues or not?
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Since resin is bad for thermal conductivity yet good for keeping things in place I thought why not extend on the idea.
Please see this concept
[attach=1]
We have a full 1:1 ratio magnet coil disk. the resin cast over the coils is darker because it is filled with iron. The parts adjacent to it are lighter because they are filled with aluminum.
If there are no known laws of physics that makes this idea a dead end then I will go and find out. Any thought are always motivating.
The reasoning is to have a disk that is able to dissipate heat far more than transitional traditional methods.
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yes sir! understood. I did not mean it in a nasty way. But I agree the sound of the word is not the best.
Back to the story at hand.
While taking a break from rebuilding the Apache I get to spend some time on what JW was correctly warning about. Eddy currents.
Up until this point I have just made assumptions that because the iron powder is not electro conductive any issues with eddy currents will be tiny. More so than with traditional techniques.
I would like to make sure.
Is there any experiment I can run to demonstrate if there are eddy current issues or not?
Cast a 4" disc of iron/resin mix about 1/2 inch thick. Spin it between 2 opposing magnets and measure temps... and check for drag, it should spin freely, any drag oyu are creating heat.
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yes sir! understood. I did not mean it in a nasty way. But I agree the sound of the word is not the best.
We {the Moderators} knew you would understand, but it needed to be said.
Carry one ;D
Bruce S
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@MattM,
I totally forgot that there has been a change to the MK I cups to make them weigh less. I did not weigh the new version but it feels more like 10 kilo. Not much more than that. Probably even less.
So let's see what will happen with this less fat version.
BTW these are prototype cups that I can only (un)install during low wind weather because of their size and still weight it should not be windy else risk taking off like a flag when a gust of wind gets a hold of it mid installation.
Also for testing it should be dry for a few days as this early test cups are made from fiber board that will turn into porridge when in contact with water.
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Isn't there a time limit for post edits? Seems like after a few days it gets locked from edits.
Looks like we posted near simultaneously. Im looking forward to see it all come together.
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I can post a photo of an early stage with all 3 cups attached just for $#|+s and giggles but once that is done they are coming down again stat!!
The central column is farrr too flexible with the new weight added. And the cups aren't even on yet.
I forgot which exact type of steel we have for the central column but the dimensions are 48mm diam with a wall thickness of 3mm.
This needs upgrading ;(
I would like to upgrade to aluminum because of the weight benefit. Something more like 100mm diam by 8mm wall.
But this time I would like to wait on it for a while to give the more experienced amongst us to have a say about it.
I'd like to prevent panic stages that could have been prevented by simply asking first before doing ;)
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@MaryB,
btw I am in the early stages of running your eddy current test.
The disk came out horrendous, yet still fit for purpose. I need more experience pouring resin ;)
Also I thought that keeping a disk central between 2 opposing fields would be easy. Yet the slightest misalignment results in violent pulls.
Does anyone have ideas how to make this test more practical?
[attach=1]
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Please bear witness to the bird her first flight.
[attach=1]
wind speed about 1.5m/s
I will actually connect them to the adjacent arms before I remove them. Just to learn what to expect when doing so.
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I am sad having to admit that fear made me stake this phoenix to the ground. I will not need to explain why it is blamage when doing so !.
But safety first. Think of the local wild life. i.e. my family ;)
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Kinda nice watching it go round & round :).
Kudos
Bruce S
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If it is ok to have 2 magnets on only 1 side then I can print a magnet holder to put into the bearing rather quick.
Probably easy to extent on the concept and also have 2 magnets on the other side keeping things balanced.
@MaryB,
btw I am in the early stages of running your eddy current test.
The disk came out horrendous, yet still fit for purpose. I need more experience pouring resin ;)
Also I thought that keeping a disk central between 2 opposing fields would be easy. Yet the slightest misalignment results in violent pulls.
Does anyone have ideas how to make this test more practical?
(Attachment Link)
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I am not sure yet but it looks as if this drag type device has a TSR of around 1.
I am trying to say that the blades seem to move at the same speed as the wind. roughly speaking
{1} hahah strike that Sometimes it looks as if the blades are moving faster than the wind. to be continued {1}
{2} wow !!! that just made me think perhaps now is a good time to go lift type again. I mean if the blades do not start scaring me then why bother with air wheels {2}
{3} yeah no. random ramblings. let me watch it spin longer before i draw conclusions{3}
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regarding the self destruct functionality as a fail safe.
Any tips one might have on how to approach this would be great.
I am thinking based on the weight of the final blades to determine a maximum centripetal force they should experience and if things start rotating faster then the connection points fail and the blade will fall off. But because it is attached to the arms it can not go far.
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I think the Apache is not a good name.
Even though this contraption certainly has destructive capabilities. It has got nothing to do with war what so ever.
My mind lingers on "The Phoenix". The mythical bird that keeps rising from the ashes.
When given half a thought it more closely resembles the process I am in.
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The remainder of the C-channels can go on your naked boards for six total. Otherwise they won't do much to counterbalance. If you are going to build for the buckets to fall off then at least attach chains or something on them to drop down safely back within its own footprint. No need to have them launch somewhere.
Pheonix is also named the 'Thunderbird'. A nice nickname for Thunderbird cars was 'Thunderchicken'.
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would this setup be good enough to determine eddy current issues or not?
[attach=1]
or if I increase the distance between the magnets I might be able to pull off having two of them like so
[attach=2]
{1} early tests suggest I am correct. But I need to really make sure so that I am not making a huge blunder and that people can trust the results{1}
{2} would it be ok if I not use resin but rather just hand slam compact the powder? That would increase the likeliness of the powder particles coming close enough to each other to allow for the conductivity of electricity. I am still confident that it will not though. I tried like a year ago with all my might and was not able to demonstrate electro conductivity{2}
{3}A better phrasing would be is that I seemed to have been able to demonstrate the powder not being conductive. That is after all the whole premise I am trying to validate{3}
If it is ok to have 2 magnets on only 1 side then I can print a magnet holder to put into the bearing rather quick.
Probably easy to extent on the concept and also have 2 magnets on the other side keeping things balanced.
@MaryB,
btw I am in the early stages of running your eddy current test.
The disk came out horrendous, yet still fit for purpose. I need more experience pouring resin ;)
Also I thought that keeping a disk central between 2 opposing fields would be easy. Yet the slightest misalignment results in violent pulls.
Does anyone have ideas how to make this test more practical?
(Attachment Link)
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Yes sir!. consider it done.
The remainder of the C-channels can go on your naked boards for six total. Otherwise they won't do much to counterbalance. If you are going to build for the buckets to fall off then at least attach chains or something on them to drop down safely back within its own footprint. No need to have them launch somewhere.
Pheonix is also named the 'Thunderbird'. A nice nickname for Thunderbird cars was 'Thunderchicken'.
{1}
It pains me to see her grounded and without feathers. If this does not fill ones heart with sorrow then I strongly suggest a meeting with a shrink and check for sociopathic tendencies ;)
[attach=1]
{1}
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and also please do not get me wrong my dear readers.
I will get back to the repelling rotor dual stator setup that I so magnificently blundered on early on here.
Just for giggles if nothing else. And of course I will be honest about the results.
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I'm thinking your photo got right and left reversed.
The air should follow those air channels from outside to middle from a directional position front-center into the wind.
When the c-channel is perpindicular to the wind air will stagnate in it.
The air should follow those air channels from inside/middle to the outside from a position past perpindicular to the wind.
As close to the center (as you can get) you may consider little flaps of metal, or even wooden ramp, to utilize that first airflow moving towards the middle. A nice rounded shape or straight bend won't matter, just to get a little extra nudge from airflow near your centerline for easy starts. It may not help much, but its a simple addition.
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Pheonix is also named the 'Thunderbird'. A nice nickname for Thunderbird cars was 'Thunderchicken'.
hahah Matt, Look what you have done now! ;) You do understand that now I keep repeating this epic countdown.
5, 4, 3 ,2 1. thunderbirds are go!!
It will take some time for it to go away again. ;)
But I am happy to relive it. Good old television.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfIAKj3Gl1E
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would this setup be good enough to determine eddy current issues or not?
(Attachment Link)
or if I increase the distance between the magnets I might be able to pull off having two of them like so
(Attachment Link)
Second pic, more speed will show issues a lot faster
{1} early tests suggest I am correct. But I need to really make sure so that I am not making a huge blunder and that people can trust the results{1}
{2} would it be ok if I not use resin but rather just hand slam compact the powder? That would increase the likeliness of the powder particles coming close enough to each other to allow for the conductivity of electricity. I am still confident that it will not though. I tried like a year ago with all my might and was not able to demonstrate electro conductivity{2}
{3}A better phrasing would be is that I seemed to have been able to demonstrate the powder not being conductive. That is after all the whole premise I am trying to validate{3}
If it is ok to have 2 magnets on only 1 side then I can print a magnet holder to put into the bearing rather quick.
Probably easy to extent on the concept and also have 2 magnets on the other side keeping things balanced.
@MaryB,
btw I am in the early stages of running your eddy current test.
The disk came out horrendous, yet still fit for purpose. I need more experience pouring resin ;)
Also I thought that keeping a disk central between 2 opposing fields would be easy. Yet the slightest misalignment results in violent pulls.
Does anyone have ideas how to make this test more practical?
(Attachment Link)
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yes mam! I will try it. should I fail then I will fall back on the more simple test as I have it from an esteemed contributor that that test also should be adequate.
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I am not sure what you mean Matt but thanks non the less, yet please hold on for a moment. I am installing test feathers aka blades.
The only thing I am worried about is that the frame again is alu. I just hope I can keep vibrations a thing of the past.
I really am not looking forward having to upgrade again to wood. Things will start weighing too much that way and then any solution of moving the bird to the roof one day keeps getting more expensive. And without hope for older roofs should anyone ever want to build something similar.
I'm thinking your photo got right and left reversed.
The air should follow those air channels from outside to middle from a directional position front-center into the wind.
When the c-channel is perpindicular to the wind air will stagnate in it.
The air should follow those air channels from inside/middle to the outside from a position past perpindicular to the wind.
As close to the center (as you can get) you may consider little flaps of metal, or even wooden ramp, to utilize that first airflow moving towards the middle. A nice rounded shape or straight bend won't matter, just to get a little extra nudge from airflow near your centerline for easy starts. It may not help much, but its a simple addition.
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Maybe better not to hold on Matt. I am still in my garage building the majestical feathers (oversized blades).
Can you please visually explain what it is you mean? Because I am almost certain I have followed your earlier drawings to the nanometer ;) But then again I could also just interpret your drawings not how they were intended ;(
{1} the photos I take are not flipped/mirored. They are as I see it. I carefully orient the wind catching surface of the blades to make sure that even though my house is blocking wind from a certain direction then I work around this problem and minimize the degrading effects it has on the turbine{1}
I'm thinking your photo got right and left reversed.
The air should follow those air channels from outside to middle from a directional position front-center into the wind.
When the c-channel is perpindicular to the wind air will stagnate in it.
The air should follow those air channels from inside/middle to the outside from a position past perpindicular to the wind.
As close to the center (as you can get) you may consider little flaps of metal, or even wooden ramp, to utilize that first airflow moving towards the middle. A nice rounded shape or straight bend won't matter, just to get a little extra nudge from airflow near your centerline for easy starts. It may not help much, but its a simple addition.
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My mistake on the picture. I could have sworn the weather station flipped sides. It may be your pictures taken from different angles disoriented my perspective. I will whip up a picture soon. Really its simpler than it sounds.
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no Matt you are not wrong. the weather station did move!!!
There is nothing wrong with your visual capabilities ;)
The weather station will most likely keep moving.
But now the matter is resolved. There is no more need for a drawing for this issue at this stage.
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Mary did really inspire me when she said "oversize" ;)
I am going to try 4m heigh 1m wide cups.
Just to see things go horribly wrong ;)
Where did I put that kevlar body armour again?
[attach=1]
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May consider hanging it on hinges to allow them to twist without destroying the arms. Gravity will keep them vertical until enough wind tilts them on the hinge. There will still be some twisting going on but shouldn't be nearly as much torque applied to the arm. This would be similar to how horizontals have furling to limit forces captured by the device for safety reasons. Your buckets will need to connect somehow, though, to prevent them from asynchronous oscillations. If one tilts they all need to be able to tilt simultaneously.
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Yes Matt!! this is proving harder than expected. Both without a doubt showing that eddy currents are not at play and going oversized.
I will admit that I am not qualified yet going this large of feathers!!
So I will be taking things down a notch just to get a feel for things before I start pushing envelopes again.
As for the eddy currents. Would it be ok if I spin this dual (actually quadrupal) magnet disk for like 1 minute using a hand held drill and then assess the temperature? If no real change then good?
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But please never let it be said that trail and error is not one of the best ways of advancing.
Here is a sign of what is to come.
[attach=1]
Although not really cheap these panels are easy to work with. Can take a beating and also do not care about weather conditions.
The way I installed them they also have a natural self destruct moment that I have no idea yet on how to determine that. But they can just pop out when things get tooo rough.
But maybe i need them to pop out far earlier than in their current configuration. I am thinking yes!
A 4x1 blade is just insanity at this stage of my capabilities.
Even though I am not one to shy away from a challenge I might not take this particular one if going more containable will also render usable power.
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I really hope I do not have to be reminding everyone that this project is in dire need of constructive criticism.
If the intend is good then I will not snap. In fact I am known for letting things slide ;)
Let us leave the snapping to cheap cable tensioners that have clearly not been quality controlled ;)
This is not to say that I am without temperament. But only when feeling threatened, or in a more romantic setting, it can become obvious that I am
Luckily I am mostly amongst adults so am not usually exposed to juveniles that can trigger me like that.
So please feel free to give any and all advice one might have and maybe then this bird will take flight in a controlled manner ;)
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May want to let her spin around awhile to test her strength. That way when everything comes together she has been battle-tested like the true Apache spirit.
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Mary did really inspire me when she said "oversize" ;)
I am going to try 4m heigh 1m wide cups.
Just to see things go horribly wrong ;)
Where did I put that kevlar body armour again?
(Attachment Link)
Over BUILD lol aka make things twice as strong as they need to be!
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13.3 kg for the 4x1m frame alone. I might strap 13 of 1 liter milk cartons on the other end to keep things balanced.
Yes you have guessed it correctly. I am not going down without a fight ;) I am keeping the frames for now yet will not install the wind catching panels yet.
Let it spin for a few days and then slowly I can keep adding panels and see what happens while keeping a birds eye on signs of stress.
Mary did really inspire me when she said "oversize" ;)
I am going to try 4m heigh 1m wide cups.
Just to see things go horribly wrong ;)
Where did I put that kevlar body armour again?
(Attachment Link)
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"Let it spin for a few days and then slowly I can keep adding panels and see what happens while keeping a birds eye on signs of stress."
With this in mind , and using the 3-blade set up that you posted back on the 15th. Unless you add counter weights, the whole thing will be off balance.
Might be a good idea to put all 3 on and check them often.
In as far as the criticize, I cannot speak for others. I am watching the different changes and waiting for the blades to be attached so we can see how well it operates.
We are rooting for you!! ;D
Bruce S
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The bird has spoken.
She does not like to be grounded (tied down). Doing so will result in vibrations only helicopter pilots can tolerate (this is just an assumption I make as I know nothing of helicopters. I certainly never been in one let alone also actually flown one. I just keep the entertainment of the reader in mind when I write. Only keeping it to dry facts tends to make for, albeit important and valuable, less engaging reading material).
Anyway I have noticed after a few experiments with alu arms on or off / filled or not, and variations on that concept that birds do not like to be grounded. Especially The Phoenix (or is it Pheonix?) does not like that. And she will make it known with intimidating warning signs mind you!!!!!
So with feathers (the blades) or not I will just keep her free to rotate for now until I have more experience to help develop intuitions.
{1}So with only alu c channels things will vibrate like crazy even when free to rotate. With the spruce wood vibrations are soo much less! Yet even with spruce wood when grounding the bird again things are getting scary again. Most likely due to the ties (those bright orange ones) used are catching too much wind. In fact I think I can see them oscillate either at the same frequency or at an harmonic to that of the arms. It all so early to be able to know for sure. But resonance seems for real the birds greatest enemy.
* Kghh Come in Apache I
* Kghh Apache I reporting for duty.
* Kghh Set your full arsenal to eliminate "resonance" fire at will
* Kghh Roger!
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-* Kghh Target acquired!! Going at it!!
{1}
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One thing I already to think I need to change is the central column.
I just do not know with what yet.
As per usual please shoot if one has a suggestion.
To help one help me the problem is that the steel column is just too flexible. I believe it to be an American dimensioned tube. 48.3mm diam by 2.8mm wall thickness. I guess that translates to 1 1/2 inch diam?
Other than the dimensions not being fit for purpose I am not subliminally suggesting that there is anything wrong with American steel!! Steel is steel after all. Sure with many variations in composition but those variations are available anywhere.
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strike that please.
I just have gotten a far better idea. Also looking to how the final version of this majestic bird should look like.
Why don't I kill 2 lesser ;) birds with 1 stone
Rather than replacing the central column Why do not I build some body armour on it. Something similar I use now for the guy wires but then directly attached as it is free to rotate and far taller. from the center up and down wards.
I am thinking of wood like I have now. But which type I do not know. Please advice.
It will also motivate me like never before to finally get this cnc machine and start upgrading my abilities.
With the cnc machine I would like to carfe drawings like a tatoo artist of related images. Of course The Pheonix will be one of them.
I have in my sphere of acquaintances an actual tattoo artist that I can make an offer he can't refuse ;)
So please all advice. Which type of wood and how to orient it ?
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Plywood gussets halfway up the column. Cut a half sheet of plywood diagonally then attach to the center with steel angles(attach angles then the plywood) You have to make flex where it joins the base. The arms should have been rectangular aluminum not C channel that twists really easy!
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To help one help me the problem is that the steel column is just too flexible. I believe it to be an American dimensioned tube. 48.3mm diam by 2.8mm wall thickness. I guess that translates to 1 1/2 inch diam?.
Perhaps your inner diamer is 37-38mm. That would be the correct diameter for 1.5" pipe. Tube and pipe measure differently.
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Plywood gussets halfway up the column. Cut a half sheet of plywood diagonally then attach to the center with steel angles(attach angles then the plywood) You have to make flex where it joins the base. The arms should have been rectangular aluminum not C channel that twists really easy!
I am actually rather serious about a giant cnc router table.
I was thinking to buy a few huge special extremely fit for purpose wooden logs and machine them into a work of art that also serves as a retainer.
Or if we are still talking practicality then I am also still interested to learn what you meant. But then I am just not sure how you meant the implementation. perhaps a rough scetch might help?
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Attach angle iron to central column and legs with bolts, cut right triangle pieces of 1" plywood and bolt to those pieces of angle iron. Angle iron will add stiffness, plywood will add a LOT more!
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Perhaps your inner diamer is 37-38mm. That would be the correct diameter for 1.5" pipe. Tube and pipe measure differently.
Here I go again making blunders.
I found the official definition of the column
1 1/2" (48.3 x 2.9 MM)
But because of the corrosion on it I can no longer make accurate measurements.
When doing my own translation between imperial and metric I find there to be a mismatch between how the column was sold and how my best attempt at making accurate measurements seem to be.
Yet please let us please not spend more than 2 days of interwoven thought about it. After all this is just a road bumb, not a road block.
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hahhah the western storm is staring to kick in.
I have gotten 11.3 m/s so far.
Please do not worry. I have taken down the bones (arms) because I saw this storm coming.
I just went out and touched the central column and the guy wire that is most responsible for keeping the column up based on the direction of the wind and which guy wire will do most of the retaining.
Sure there are vibrations but sooo little that I still can not believe that with proper design (I certainly can NOT do it yet/if ever) there can be a structure that one can place on roofs.
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48.3mm matches Schedule 80 pipe. It should be easy to find the engineered limits of those pipes because its so well specific and defined.
https://riggit.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/RGT-PipeLoadTable_80Steel_2019.pdf
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Perhaps your inner diamer is 37-38mm. That would be the correct diameter for 1.5" pipe. Tube and pipe measure differently.
Here I go again making blunders.
I found the official definition of the column
1 1/2" (48.3 x 2.9 MM)
But because of the corrosion on it I can no longer make accurate measurements.
When doing my own translation between imperial and metric I find there to be a mismatch between how the column was sold and how my best attempt at making accurate measurements seem to be.
Yet please let us please not spend more than 2 days of interwoven thought about it. After all this is just a road bumb, not a road block.
I wouldn't worry too much about translating from Metric to imperial.
We can easily google it ;D
Cheers
Bruce S
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yes!!!!!!!!!!
back on track!!!!!!!!!!
I am killing so many (lesser :) ) birds with one stone hopefully.
You see there is nothing wrong with this pipe column I have. In fact it is a blessing in disguise.
Because of the flex it had it started a whirlwind in my mind of what to do. Earlier we have been talking about the body armor doubling as art work.
But what if we just cut 1m of the pipe. {1}because then the bending will be much less{1} (already did that but no photo yet). And simply remove the wooden feet beams as the structure is technically no longer free standing anyway.
Sure one could argue "Well that is a waste of money" But i would counter that that is the nature of prototyping. And think of the cost savings it will have on the Bill Of Materials on the final version! hmm that is assuming there will ever be a final version ;(
The guy wires will be staked to the ground for now. But believe you me that I will hopefully find some neutron star material that I can put as a base for the guy wires. Then technically it will be free standing again ;)
And think of all the less issues with the arms when they are closer to the ground!! {2}I just remembered that turbulence is the greatest enemy of the arms, not wind speed which was my reasoning{3}amongst others{3} to go for lowering them{2}
More to follow because a picture says a thousand words.
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The c channels have a 100mm height, a 50mm width and a thickness of 5mm. On paper this looked sturdy to me but in the field these less than fit for purpose channels like to vibrate.
They are sold as U profiles but that is like potatoes and potatoes!
Aluminium U-profiel 50 x 100 x 50 x 5 MM 6060 T6
So I will no longer be using them as wind catchers. They are now upgraded (or reduced depending on ones angle of perception) to rectangles. {1}By means of taping duct tape around them{1}
I really do not believe we are going to need any additional wind catching abilities when things start spinning for real. {2}If for one thing only then bringing down the weather station down from the roof to the yard did make me less nervous as I have not seen any 19+ m/s yet. But 11+m/s is also not something I am looking forward to to be honest. So sooner or later a self destruct moment, that is planned for and therefor safe, needs to be build in. I will make sure I do{2}
But we will cross that bridge when we get there.
My mistake on the picture. I could have sworn the weather station flipped sides. It may be your pictures taken from different angles disoriented my perspective. I will whip up a picture soon. Really its simpler than it sounds.
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Yesss, I think you have cracked the code!! ;)
Now tell me how many more data breaches are you responsible for ;) hahhahh
48.3mm matches Schedule 80 pipe. It should be easy to find the engineered limits of those pipes because its so well specific and defined.
https://riggit.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/RGT-PipeLoadTable_80Steel_2019.pdf
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If you need the wooden arms longer then you can shift the pivot hole over. Just have to make sure all three have balance.
I fear that 1.5" pipe is a real liability. Your last 150-200mm is unbraced and plenty long enough to flex under merciless wind loads. Do you have access to any thicker pipe? You can always weld a flat plate to the top of a bigger pipe and tack a small section of your smaller pipe to it to recycle whatever bearing system you already have. Could even build a sleeve around the existing pipe and fill it with concrete to give it all the load bearing you could throw in it. But you want mobility so concrete is out. Wood done right should be able to do it. Something sturdy to keep the end from oscillating. It needs to be much stronger to handle all the forces. S-cracks can happen under torque loads. What may calculate strong enough to handle in the vertical and horizontal planes can absolutely self destructs under torque loads.
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I do not have any other pipes or tubes in the garage. Yeah sure. PVC sewage pipes I have laying around still but I am guessing let's not start using that ;) hahah
But if I can wait for the delivery time then I can buy pretty much anything that is sold. Also business to business vendors only I can tap into so that means large scale construction project type of things.
But I would prefer to keep it consumer based. It brings added securities and in general less potential hassle. {3}And lets not forget the likeliness that one can also build something similar. I mean if I were to introduce highly specialized things to this build then that basically makes this project only meant to serve my power needs, yet completely forgoes on the humanitarian aspect of this project{3}
But I have been eye balling to go aluminum for some time now. And 'only' a 10 day delivery time.
Their largest size is
diam. 100 x wall 5 MM 6060 T6
the weight increase over the current pipe per meter would be around 1 kg. But since we are now only talking a length of 2m rather than the original 3 that increase is still within the limits of the taper roller bearing. (I must stress though that this assertion is gut feeling based and not on basis of actual technical listed properties)
You know what? As I am closing my thoughts and about to hit the post button I realize that I know far too little at this stage to start buying extra material again.
But I will leave the thought process above here anyway.
I think I had better repurpose the wooden feet beams first as body armor and get this top arm holder to not move anymore. I think then we have a better position to assess the weak points that are left and how to address them.
{1}hahah not all of the wooden feet beams of course are needed for the body armor. I am still looking to keep the load bearing structure and the retaining (the parts, like guy wires, used to keep the load bearing structure upright) structure as little wind catching as possible ;){1}
{2} and that is an example of what keeps me from jumping straight to the 100mm alu pipe I mentioned here. I just do not know the added load it will bring on the retaining structure. Now I would be happy if Mary would give some fast and loose pointers on how to calculate that but I would also fully understand if there are just too many tiny factors at play here that field testing is the only way to know for sure{2}
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hahahha Mary!!!!
Guess what I found, for purchase, in the mean time. In the process of getting the arm holder plate to not wiggle anymore.
Yes you have guessed it!!
JB Weld
I will first try a thin steel sheet though. wrapped around the pipe as to make the fit closer to the component responsible for holding the arms. See how far that aids in stability.
Otherwise I am considering filling the gaps all up with JB weld (after careful preparation of all surfaces involved)
I love it when a plan comes together "famous quotes. RIP George Peppard aka Lieutenant Colonel John "Hannibal" Smith. The A Team"
{1}One might wonder why not welding. Well I can weld sure. But the quality would be bad and I know very little about how to do it properly. Also the weld would be only on the outer perimeter. I strive for a bond that is everywhere{1}
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So with shorter arms are you going 6 buckets then?
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Sorry for the confusion I have caused. I meant to say that I have taped up the alu C channels to make them rectangles. And they are going back into place like before. But this time they are less likely to vibrate like crazy. Especially with weight on them and under tension.
So the diameter will remain 6 meter. But the height of the arms is reduced from around 325 cm to around 205cm.
I am thinking I need to make the blades go up rather than down. But this is just one iteration of a few to follow I think. I mean it is unlikely I find something I trust this early in the build cycle.
Adding buckets is indeed something that crossed my mind but as far as I understand it it will only decrease the rotational speed yet not increase any efficiency. I could have misunderstood though.
{1}One thing I am also considering is integrating the c channels into the wood by using a router to cut out channels in the wood and snugly slide in the alu. Because I really am looking to keep the profile of the arms as slim as possible.
I will give a photo update tomorrow maybe more likely wednessday. As my wife does not like me in the garden or garage these holidays.
Happy xmas for those that do it ;)
{1}
So with shorter arms are you going 6 buckets then?
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hahahha Mary!!!!
Guess what I found, for purchase, in the mean time. In the process of getting the arm holder plate to not wiggle anymore.
Yes you have guessed it!!
JB Weld
I will first try a thin steel sheet though. wrapped around the pipe as to make the fit closer to the component responsible for holding the arms. See how far that aids in stability.
Otherwise I am considering filling the gaps all up with JB weld (after careful preparation of all surfaces involved)
I love it when a plan comes together "famous quotes. RIP George Peppard aka Lieutenant Colonel John "Hannibal" Smith. The A Team"
{1}One might wonder why not welding. Well I can weld sure. But the quality would be bad and I know very little about how to do it properly. Also the weld would be only on the outer perimeter. I strive for a bond that is everywhere{1}
JB weld is permanent... takes a torch to soften it to get stuff apart... The 100mm(4" give or take) 1/2 inch wall(5mm give or take) AL is going to be a LOT stiffer than what you have now... to bad you aren't closer, I have an 8" diameter 1/4 inch wall 6061T6 piece of tubing in the garage. Has a couple holes from when it was a telescope pier...
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Ok Before I move to 100mm alu for the central column.
I want to learn more on how to also work with what I have.
Please see, although I was unable to get there before dark, what is the intent.
[attach=1]
So no more feet as the structure is not free standing anyway. (I will get back to this believe you me :) )
The column is less tall, now around 2m height.
The arm holder is closer to the column retainer (the part where the guy wires attach to)
The column retainer bearings have now a closer fit to the column.
All in all I now think I am ready to give it another try and see where things need to be improved for the next iteration.
Btw Matt, I kind of like your idea of sleeving with concrete. I mean I am probably able to move around freely objects that weight like 100 maybe 125 KG at max around.
So I am not ruling your suggestion out just yet.
On the other hand. Introducing weight is making adoption less likely.
When one has to cary by one selfs then I think 20 kg is the adviced limit is not it? I mean otherwise there would be bags of cement available far over 20 kg.
But at this stage first I want to see results before I start prioritising weight.
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ugg :(
there is less flex indeed but not enough for me to start trusting things when the wind picks up again.
In an effort keeping the central column as slim as possible I can consider a rod rather than a pipe yet similar dimensions?
Or what about filling this pipe with concrete rather than sleeving?
I already tested 2 component foam material that turns crazy hard to see if it is a candidate for filling the column but it snaps too readily. I think for airfoils that material is still a contender but not for filling a column.
I will also reduce the blade height by 1 meter. I have tried 4m high blades but I just do not trust it. I give up (for now) on that idea yet one can't say I went down without a fight ;)
I will share some more progress once the reduced blades are installed and things are spinning neatly.
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I found this alternative in the meantime;
Aluminium round 45 MM 6082 T6
It is a solid and will weigh, even though alu, 4,33 kg/m. I almost can not believe this is a solid though. hmm whatever I am just throwing it out here so that perhaps those more experienced with alu can object now or forever hold their peace ;) (you see how I try and sneak in little dramatic references. Perhaps {1}not perhaps, that is what I would like{1} my true calling in life is being a writer.)
I can print with ease adapters that I trust to keep things together because of the slight dimensional change.
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please see the bird ready to rotate even without feathers.
[attach=1]
wind speed varies between 1 and 2 m/s
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hahha Yes Matt ;)
Your eyes are still good ;)
The weather station moved again.
I will keep moving there were the wind is coming from.
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But!! one very important things to take account of is that this only happens when the wind is in the specific wind direction the previous animation showed.
Most of my house is blocking the wind of ever reaching the other arms so of course rotation will encur.
I am just hoping I can exploit this concept that when the blades are on and when the wind comes from this angle then things will be like nothing ever charted ;)
Sure i will have to tone things down again later but if no one does push envelopes. Then who will?
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Ok ok I thought why wait until all 3 blades are attached and things spin neatly while now is the time to deal with the needed critisim before I spend a lot of time going down a path that leads to disasters.
[attach=1]
Now the blade frame is not tensioned yet and also not leveled and what have we.
I also already know that the 8mm ropes will need sleeves else they will be cut through sooner or later by the alu holes they are in.
It is just a sign of what is to come and it is open hunting season for those that can shoot holes in this concept. Please do!!!!!!
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I did not want to wait with an update until also the last blade frame was fully tensioned as we are already in twilight.
I have been able to make the central column stiffer by first, and yes I told earlier that I would not try it, using rigid foam to fill up the column.
That helped ever so slightly so not a complete waste of time and material.
Then I went for the body armor. That helps as well but what it also enables me to see is that the problem of flex manifests even on short distances.
it is the part between the arms and the column retainer block where we still can see flex. Sure less now it is filled with rigid foam but not nearly as much as I think one should need.
This basically also makes the plan I had next to shorten the central column by 1 meter, leaving 1 meter a dead end so I will not even go there with this current column as it would probably make no difference as that is not the weak spot.
So I will be going for the 100mm diam alu after all.
But I will let this version still spin for a while with 1 maybe 2 wind panels per blade as long as the wind is manageable. Just to see more things happen where I should focus on.
[attach=1]
{1}upcoming improvements are to replace the 8mm ropes (that have a max tensile strength of 90kg) with 4mm stainless steel wires. I am hoping it will increase the tensile strength while reducing the vibration likeliness.
@MattM, this is one of the reasons I did not fancy yet the idea of fortifying the structure with yet another structure because as far as I am able to tell by now is that adding surface area for the wind to catch on or to bang to it will make a lot of difference.
So this is why I am not fully confident in using slimmed down versions of formulas to calculate wind load even though I have been asking for them. Nah let field tests speak for them selfs as I am simply not able to wrap my mind around even the most basic formulas as soon as they start becoming in a form or containing components I am not yet familiar with
{1}
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ugg!!
I now think these panels in a 1m wide configuration do NOT make for a good wind catcher. The bulge seems not enough to act as buckets. They seem to act as regular surfaces with the turbine going back and forth.
Well that was an expensive blunder ;)
Please do not worry though. More of those to come ;)
One could think just reduce the width of the blade frames but then the panels are no longer easy to work with and they might even snap before getting them into place.
But please never let it be said that trail and error is not one of the best ways of advancing.
Here is a sign of what is to come.
(Attachment Link)
Although not really cheap these panels are easy to work with. Can take a beating and also do not care about weather conditions.
The way I installed them they also have a natural self destruct moment that I have no idea yet on how to determine that. But they can just pop out when things get tooo rough.
But maybe i need them to pop out far earlier than in their current configuration. I am thinking yes!
A 4x1 blade is just insanity at this stage of my capabilities.
Even though I am not one to shy away from a challenge I might not take this particular one if going more containable will also render usable power.
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@MattM is not that what you were referring to earlier? Those 100 to 200mm you mentioned as a weak spot. At first I did not really understand it and I am not sure that I now do but if it was referring the part below the arms then here you go. Field results stating you were spot on.
I did not want to wait with an update until also the last blade frame was fully tensioned as we are already in twilight.
I have been able to make the central column stiffer by first, and yes I told earlier that I would not try it, using rigid foam to fill up the column.
That helped ever so slightly so not a complete waste of time and material.
Then I went for the body armor. That helps as well but what it also enables me to see is that the problem of flex manifests even on short distances.
it is the part between the arms and the column retainer block where we still can see flex. Sure less now it is filled with rigid foam but not nearly as much as I think one should need.
This basically also makes the plan I had next to shorten the central column by 1 meter, leaving 1 meter a dead end so I will not even go there with this current column as it would probably make no difference as that is not the weak spot.
So I will be going for the 100mm diam alu after all.
But I will let this version still spin for a while with 1 maybe 2 wind panels per blade as long as the wind is manageable. Just to see more things happen where I should focus on.
(Attachment Link)
{1}upcoming improvements are to replace the 8mm ropes (that have a max tensile strength of 90kg) with 4mm stainless steel wires. I am hoping it will increase the tensile strength while reducing the vibration likeliness.
@MattM, this is one of the reasons I did not fancy yet the idea of fortifying the structure with yet another structure because as far as I am able to tell by now is that adding surface area for the wind to catch on or to bang to it will make a lot of difference.
So this is why I am not fully confident in using slimmed down versions of formulas to calculate wind load even though I have been asking for them. Nah let field tests speak for them selfs as I am simply not able to wrap my mind around even the most basic formulas as soon as they start becoming in a form or containing components I am not yet familiar with
{1}
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Also one very important thing I would like to remind everyone about is.
I do not mind starting over from the ground up!
Sure I have been saying that I would like to see how far I can get with what I have and that is still true.
But in regards to the turbine structure I think I might better just hit the reset button and go from the ground up again.
Regarding the alternator I am just too damned stubborn to let things go just yet. But trust me when I finally hit a wall there as well then I will make it known.
Sure It would be great if I can leave a parting gift for my offspring to look up to when I am no longer here (as in see what my daddy did!!) but in the end of the day all we really need is a turbine that works and might be adaptable to more common scenarios for others to reap the benefits from.
in other words I am still very much open to suggestions should one have them
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@Adriaan krachten,
Sure I have difficulties with higher math. But that does not mean I am not in need of your input.
I mean if anyone can figure out a usefull bulge degree for a cup then it would be you!.
So I am really missing your input here at the moment.
Please let past things or feelings slide much easier. I mean other wise the world would stay as it is at the moment.
After all I never had the intend to be nasty.
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the pressing of the reset button is becoming more likely.
I just figured we can do with a lot less tension wires if we would use wood for blade frames and orient them such that tensioning is less of a concern.
the added weight can be dealt with with over the counter components
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Half cylinders will be your best 'pure drag' shape.
Your frames should work. Take some flat stock and form half cylinders by screwing each side of the material to each vertical frame, so that from looking at it from above it curves into a half circle. The material needs to be a stiff half circle so that it maintains low drag as it rotates into the wind. As the half circle points downwind it will will have maximum drag.
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Yes thank you Matt! (earlier I wrote Bruce ??? )
i will try and make something similar to a half circle.
In the meantime I also have theoretically solved the issue of the wobbling of the arms. I am now busy on the alternator test bench so knowing for sure will have to wait for now.
Let's hope I am able to keep this pipe, and more specifically the connection with the arms, stable.
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Ok because I ran out of steam (printer issues, resin quantity issues, just a basic lack of understanding on how to go about testing coils issues and what have we) working on the coils I went ahead with the turbine but there I also hit a road bumb.
No matter how hard I try I can't get rid of the excessive flex with the 48mm tube plus armor. Even when going to 1 meter.
[attach=1]
So I have ordered a solid rod of 50mm diam and by my limited research that should roughly a little less than tripple the resistance to flex, aka moment of inertia, over the current tube alone. But since we are going from around 103,967mm4 to only 306,796mm4 I thought it also better to buy this 100mmx5mm diam alu tube I mentioned earlier.
And yes you have guessed it correctly. Mary was right! Then the MoI will be around 1,688,115mm4 when going 100mm diam ;)
hahhahha ;) now that is packing a punch!!!
With all the alu I am no longer using I can cast parts out of. I have seen some suggestions on how to use 3d printing to prepare alu casting shapes. So I really am ok with trying alu and sometimes failing with it.
{1}earlier in my journey someone on here suggested a rather effective idea with interwoven spokes in case the sway of the central column would give too much of a deflection while directly driving the alternator.. Well, although I do not believe I will need it yet. Should practice demand otherwise then I will make that part out of alu ;){1}
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I have some updates in the meantime.
The coil tests are really promising.
[attach=1]
The vertical division was set at 500mV
And the iron powdered coil on the right not only improves the voltage at low frequencies but also demonstrates superior heat dissipation capabilities as well.
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
Earlier tests show that the iron powdered coil never becomes too hot too touch when applying around 53 VAC at around 2.6 ampere
[attach=4]
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next up will be 6 of those coils stacked. 2 coils per phase wired in series.
[attach=1]
I am hoping that the heat disapation ability will still be superior but I am a little sceptical as there is now far less space for the iron powder to occupy.
Let's see how it goes but I have to wait a few days until my lab oscillator is in to be able to shake the iron powder through all the wires.
Also I am working on the air wheels as blades. Early tests suggest it could work.
I think this turbine is going to be insane when done ;)
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if anyone can recommend a type of gear that can increase the rotation speed of a PMA while having its center similar to the central column then I can reduce the cost of the alternator considerable by reducing it's radius and also design fans that will help cool the coils during rotating.
{1}Never mind. planetary gears seem to be suitable{1}
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Wow that's some expensive looking stuff-
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Wow that's some expensive looking stuff-
Affordable actually! Chinese Oscope was probably in the $300 area... little power supply $100 area max...
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Yes Mary is correct. I make sure I buy the entry level stuff as I am still not sure if I can jusitfy all the costs for the big gun as I probably will only make wind turbines with all those stuff. Except the thermal camera I see a lot of other usages for but also that one is the most basic entry level I could find,
But that the iron powder filled coil can take around 100 watts 53VAC at 2.6 amps without overheating I did not expect. I stoped the test after 7 minutes before reaching that conclusion.
So I guess I will have to go back to the drawing board to see how I can reduce the radius of the alternator and reduce the amount of magnets because currently that coil produces 2.5 VAC at around 4 Hz which is a bit more than the target frequency of the current alternator design.
That is all far too high so I will see if I can reduce the Billl of Materials considerably while keeping the same target voltage.
I have really never seen results like this before. I am impressed by what these small wires can do with proper heat dissipation.
Or did you guys expect this to happen?
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Your voltage is a product of coil wraps. You can go fewer wraps to drop voltage.
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:)
I am looking for that image you sent once in relation to a remark Adriaan made over that a direct drive would be problematic due to the swaying of the central column.
But I lost the bookmark and the search feature is not working as intended.
Would you mind posting that image again please? this time I will be sure to save it to disk.
I am looking for a way to connect a planetary gear to the central column even when the column might be swaying a bit. I think that image might hold inspiration.
Your voltage is a product of coil wraps. You can go fewer wraps to drop voltage.
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I saved them on my laptop but can you describe it?
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Thanks brother for at least engaging on this.
Yet I have tried every permutation know to mankind using the search function (heavy exaggeration alert!!) and all the results that do show up do not lead to what I am looking for. Even in the thread where I remember it to be.
For all we know it might not even been you that send the image as it was not a drawing like you share sometimes to convert ideas. No it looked like a scan of of something. Duo tone black and white. In where one shaft with some kind of blades attached to another with some kinds of blades.
It would help a lot if I could search on more parameters. With one of them being whether there is an attachment.
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Search for GoVertical he built a geared up machine using belts https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,143852.486.html
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that is the whole point Mary.
Searching does not work on this software to be of any kind of practical value.
I am sorry I had to resort to this hard statement as earlier I tried the cloak of love to say the same. But if even moderators keep sending me through this black hole again then it needed to be said.
@moderators. How can I search and find all images ever posted in a topic I was involved with?
That would be my SQL query if I had access to the DB.
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and then as filter only threads with me at OP. ;)
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ohh and i have another question.
Why does not everyone either challenge my findings regarding the stacking of magnets or publicly agree with me that long held notions might be farther from the truth than first though.
I even offered my stuff more than once for one to help me either confirm or debunk.
I mean if even , the great creator of reports, is now reluctant to contribute to my threads due to some basic push back and is unwilling to accept my offer to help me out then what does that mean?
I mean there is no one really going to peer review his reports are there? Yeah that is what I though as is the creator of said reports.
Look I might be mistaken of course and if such then I will fully admit how tremendously stupid I am. Yet without some solid evidence that is easy to follow for a layman I am not going to even bother trying to go any deeper into that rabit hole.
Those strange ideas I had that were ridiculed earlier? Well they do still seem strange for now yet still worth exploring.
I mean I challenge anyone to give me an example of a coil that can take a beating like I displayed and keep smiling during.
So I invite you all to follow my lead. I do not know yet where we are heading but I need all the help I can get to get there.
But one thing I do know. We will only usesome kind of demonstration and documentation system so that it can be peer reviewed to go forwards. And I am always open to constructive critique.
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ohh and i have another question.
Why does not everyone either challenge my findings regarding the stacking of magnets or publicly agree with me that long held notions might be farther from the truth than first though.
I even offered my stuff more than once for one to help me either confirm or debunk.
I mean if even , the great creator of reports, is now reluctant to contribute to my threads due to some basic push back and is unwilling to accept my offer to help me out then what does that mean?
I mean there is no one really going to peer review his reports are there? Yeah that is what I though as is the creator of said reports.
Look I might be mistaken of course and if such then I will fully admit how tremendously stupid I am. Yet without some solid evidence that is easy to follow for a layman I am not going to even bother trying to go any deeper into that rabit hole.
Those strange ideas I had that were ridiculed earlier? Well they do still seem strange for now yet still worth exploring.
I mean I challenge anyone to give me an example of a coil that can take a beating like I displayed and keep smiling during.
So I invite you all to follow my lead. I do not know yet where we are heading but I need all the help I can get to get there.
But one thing I do know. We will only use demonstration and documentation to go forwards. And I am always open to constructive critique.
Not sure you are criticizing the members here for not critiquing your stuff or where you are going with this.
BUT I will state for the record.
ALL of the owners, admins, Mod have a great number of things that are just as important in their daily lives as assisting where we can.
I for one work for a metropolitan sized Fire department, therefore I use my personal time to assist.
I'm certain that if you look, you'll also see others have 'mills of various sizes to work on, and other have jobs too.
IF we the other forum members don't get back to you quickly, it might be 'cause we're dealing with other more important things, like keeping the onboard laptop in a Hazmat apparatus linked so we can get real-time updates during a "situation" or maybe someone's up a pole fixing a squeaky bearing, or a broken blade.
Hope that helps you understand why we don't always jump as quickly as one might want.
Bruce S
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I was addressing the naysayers Bruce.
Not the well intended folks that keep this show on the road.
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In my dairy I will note the following;
Although no longer of young age, it is striking to me that I already have a minimum of 3 concrete moments in life in where though persistence/perseverance, against all odds, I came out satisfied.
Now this is to say that always hold your head up and always be respectful.
In no way did I insinuate disrespect to anyone not even to the forum software. Yet the forum software is one thing clear in vision on what I would to contribute on.
And I think that I have reason and prerogative to do so. And even so I still manage to word things rather pleasant most of the times.
And am willing to help if need be.
No I think it is a sign of respect if one also gives a little push back every now and then. A sign of respect to the greater good.
Now I am open to learning how to better formulate my sentences to avoid triggering emotions again. But the moral of the intend is set.
Just do know I love all of you.
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Thanks brother for at least engaging on this.
Yet I have tried every permutation know to mankind using the search function (heavy exaggeration alert!!) and all the results that do show up do not lead to what I am looking for. Even in the thread where I remember it to be.
For all we know it might not even been you that send the image as it was not a drawing like you share sometimes to convert ideas. No it looked like a scan of of something. Duo tone black and white. In where one shaft with some kind of blades attached to another with some kinds of blades.
It would help a lot if I could search on more parameters. With one of them being whether there is an attachment.
More than likely its a post from Adrian if its a scan.
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that is the whole point Mary.
Searching does not work on this software to be of any kind of practical value.
I am sorry I had to resort to this hard statement as earlier I tried the cloak of love to say the same. But if even moderators keep sending me through this black hole again then it needed to be said.
@moderators. How can I search and find all images ever posted in a topic I was involved with?
That would be my SQL query if I had access to the DB.
Sure it works, I searched for "geared up vawt" GoVertical popped up
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one other way of looking at where I am coming from;
I see social media as both a good and terrifying thing.
It enables me to get relevant help on topics of concern and also motivates me as it is something of an audience builder. I would look like a moron to not see things through when the world is watching!!
If there were no eyes then there are all too many excuses I could think of to "postpone" the project.
those are good things
On the other hand it is also polluting the minds of young children. They are not yet capable of filtering the nonsense from the useful. The amount of harmful content out there is staggering.
I just hope the world gets rid of religion as it is not demonstrably actually true and also that people with claims (like my self) are proactively demonstrating the logic and data behind those claims.
And with demonstrating I mean much more than only writing things down in a language that is off putting for laymen to engage with.
Otherwise it is rather difficult even for adults to filter the nonsense from the useful.
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It is not just children that fail to filter out nonsense, IMHO. Not everyone over 18 should retain a full adulting licence, based on behaviour...
BTW, on FL we try to avoid any discussion of a number of inflammatory off-topic areas, including religion. Bruce can put on his bold moderator hat and say it in a serious voice. %-P
Rgds
Damon
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understood sir. I will then also treat my own diary less of a personal logbook and rather more public.
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Politics and religion result in anger and flame attacks so verboten!
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ohh wow!!
I am rambling on regarding my public thread on how to test the limits of coils / magnet arrangements.
depending on how one winds a coil one can get 300 winds easy to pull apart. So that iron powder can creap easily into every space in between the individual wires. Yet also be compacted really thinly like 8mm high only once compressed in isolation. So no resin and powder around it.
please see on the left 150 winds and on the right 300 winds. on the 300 coil I opened up the back and the front is somewhat compressed.
These are wound in a narrow fashion rather that a wide fashion like the coils I wound earlier.
[attach=1]
This tells me 2 things;
* That I still should see if I can get the heat dissipation ability back (like I demonstrated earlier with a single non stacked powdered coil) even in a 20mm thin stacked configuration. I think I can do it.
* That there is a lot of unused copper in the leg bends.. But I am putting on hold any attempts of also harvesting there as I already see that this alternator in its current configuration is going to generate far too much volts if the goal is 52 at 3.3 m/s.
So I am at a crossroads and I could really use some advice / opinions.
Do I keep pushing this concept and end up with voltages in the 200s and use a Midnight Classic MPPT controller to deal with that?
Or do I scale down to a more economical size as to reach the 52 volts at 3.3m/s?
I am leaning towards scaling down to give this design a chance to contribute to the world by reducing the bill of materials considerably.
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this makes me also realize I should try winding coils narrow and then aim for much less copper.
I have used this coil winding template shape for the narrow coils.
[attach=1]
Now you see those 2 lines on the bottom and the top of the coil shape. That is how much I think I can cut of while winding coils since winding so narrow makes it so that I do not need the extra length of wire as to be able to stack/compress.
Lets see in practise if this works or not.
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actually this type of post/diary/section was built by me. since its "logged in" you won't traffic post to the main home page. If your posting on logged in diary's you can pretty much do what you want. multiple posts etc.
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Its a nice addition JW to not only the software but also to the user experience.. Thank you for that.
It allows me sometimes be a little bit, ever so slightly, more weird than otherwise allowed elsewhere when it is in my logbook.
But truth be told I did take it as such already though. But thank you for confirming my gut feeling non the less.
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:) but I will still try and keep hot topics to an absolute minimum if I can avoid it.
;)
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Ok I am going off the deep end again :(
In where my natural tendencies to not focus much also has a counter component in where I focus too much.
Please see if this concept of a friction less bearing makes any sense or not. Bogus or plausible I need to get moving again with the project at hand.
[attach=1]
The magnets are available for purchase.
The anti gravity magnets are also available and can repel 140KG each. Well above the weight of the turbine if I do my homework correctly.
I will admit, if there is an actual possibility this might work, then now things are not really looking economical but I figured as follows.
If one is even interested in this design then one is perfectly capable to make changes to make it more economical. And I am sure we will all help in said process would there come questions.
Now I am not sure how long I have to create something to be proud of so I am going to just give it hell and end up with something strange.
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Yet intriguing and functional.
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and I will be digging in the central 100mm diam alu column into the ground.
So technically it will be free standing again!!!! {1}hmm I am actually not sure. when a structure, although not connected to anything other than magnetic fields, needs the earth to provide stability. Can one really call it free standing? {1}
This concept, should it actually work in practice, will also allow for the turbine to be floating on the water. If physically possible then this will create new options on where to install this bird.
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and it is especially when on water that I am looking for a {1}magnetic{1} bearing that allows for wobble of the column while keeping the rotor rather unaffected.
{2}when installed on water then I am actually rather confident one can call it free standing.{2}
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now if ti was ok to post an .mp4 type of file then that would safe me a lot of effort converting to animated gif.
and it would help you as now you can actually pauze at the moment you want it to see what is going on there!!!
and the constant timeouts? it would be great if those can become a thing of the past.
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here is a cross section of the bottom part.
[attach=1]
I am worried that the forces required to keep the magnets responsible for keeping the column up right from touching are greater than the field can provide.
I am not worried that I will need more power to keep the column levitating.
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haha I am sure us programmers can relate to the following statement.
over optimization is the root of all evil ;)
someone needs to stop me!!! ;)
ok I will go back to finding the sweet spot for PMA radius.
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Personal ("Captains") log. Stardate 2024-02-07
I have recently realized that I failed to disclose the mission statement our endeavor is on.
This is why I have chosen to make some of the mission my ship is in more discoverable to the world at large.
To make it clear to headquarters here are the mission goals in order of importance. Although ranked subjectively by me, I believe I have earned my stripes to also suggest them as important to the multiverse at large.
* Get some usable power out of some wind so I can protect my family when s*(t hit the fan..
* Before I look my offspring in the eye before I have to depart I can be confident there would be interest in taking over my legacy.
* Get some more of that and figure out a way on how to store that.
* Make the whole structure reliable and versatility placed so that it could be adopted if one is interested. Or in other words make it cheap and easy to build.
* Reduce the reach of charlatans going about online claiming all kinds of things without demonstrating.
* Going down in history as someone that also benefited the field.
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Anti importance yet totally plausible.
* Going down in history as the brave man that tried but never got there.
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And yes I like to boast.
It is one of those things that result from an inherently insecure nature.
Now I just hope you guys will help get this show be more spectacular than ever before. That would be great!
But in the end of the day all that matters is to have something spinning to get one by in terms of additional energy needs.
I for one am done with all the videos I have seen about 3, 6 to even a gazillion KW alternators. It's all snake oil.
I am trying to learn how to actually demonstrate the capabilities of a wind turbine. And in the process it would be great if I can figure out a way on how to add something new to it ;) yet that is only an after thought.
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yet I am never too proud to admit when I blunder.. even when doing so Hard.
Or always willing to include the source of the inspiration.
Because please all remember I make it known that I am not doing this alone. I stand on the shoulders of giants that enable me.
I did finally finish my foot and stabilizer for the new turbine column.
{if only I could just paste from clipboard here please!}
[attach=1]
The MK 2.01 is now all alu. column diam 100mm.
Futuristic plans include dinging it into the ground as an early test test bed on how it might behave when the whole structure is floating on water.
Now it becomes apparent why weight is such an issue for me.
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@TechAdmin,
Would you please run an SQL statement resulting in all records having an (image attachment && Adriaan was involved && I was involved)
i could then find the much needed inspiration I need for the direct drive to stay plausible.
What makes my mind even less reliable then I knew it would become in time is that I thought it was MattM that shared the image.
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Ugg. :( there is still wobble :(
[attach=1]
Even though now the column is 100mm diam x 5mm alu. and order of magnitude more stiff than the previous column.
Now the problem is the alu plating on where the arms rest. It has gotten that flex which I do not like to see at this stage.
I am planning to tackle this problem while killing 2 (lesser) birds with one stone.
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So I intend to put the old steel column on the top arm in the center.
So I can tether the arms to reduce the wobble. At least I am hoping that is what will happen.
And then also starting working on a self destruct feature that will pull the blades inward when the RPM get too high.
Something like incorporating a torsion spring like on my garage door.
[attach=1]
That when triggered starts pulling on the blades to make them collapse inward.
I would love to hear some suggestions on how this can be done as I am not at all clear yet on how to actually pull that off.
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in elevators they have this braking feature based on a device that when it rotates faster than a given threshold (when cables snap for instance) then the breaks kick in.
Something like that but then not susceptible to weather conditions like freezing and what have we.
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grrrr. after more thought I can try as I might with tethering the arms but it will not reduce the wobbling.
&^$%&^$%
I can only think of adding weight by means of tick steel plating in between the alu plating and the arms.
The column it self is stiff as we need it to be. That one is showing no signs of flex what so ever. (visually that is of course. Physically and atomically there is always some flex going on there.)
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The elevator brake idea is nice!
That doesn't stop you also putting an electrical emergency brake in. I used a crowbar overspeed short for my tiny turbine, which was a bit nasty, but when everything else has failed maybe it's better than the alternative...
https://www.earth.org.uk/wind-power-pilot-autumn-2007-MotorWind.html#crowbar
Rgds
Damon
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wicked! next time I am near your neck of the woods I will stop by for a proper cup of tea.
Or better yet a proper lager!!
I just which you guys never left the union as now sourcing copper wires is far more troublesome.
I like scientificwire.com but now am forced to shop elsewhere yet I do not know where :(
I am open to suggestions!!
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although I did not mean an actual break. I just meant a mechanism that once triggered (at a given RPM threshold) releases the tension spring and then it violently starts pulling on the blades. Making them collapse inwards.
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you know what gang?!!
I am going with Mary's mental support suggestion. And that is to just build else risk falling into stagnation.
Analysis paralysis as it is called.
I am going with traditional at 3.75 interval at 300mm inner radius having 2 rotors and a single stator.
I am anxious to see what will happen.
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in this context what coil would one advice?
I am willing to just go and use the "standard" as at the moment I am losing valuable time trying to over optimize things!!
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This section of the forum was invented by me. I am glad to see it works. Any user can use this as long as there logged in.
JW
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This section of the forum was invented by me. I am glad to see it works. Any user can use this as long as there logged in.
JW
Yes indeed. It is a nice addition!
So please allow me to rant for just a second.
The turbine is spinning again all night. Next to near completly silent. It is mesmerizing to watch the blades glide.
Yet at around 1.6m/s wind speed I arrive at around 14 seconds per revolution. While at 3.3 m/s I arrived at 13 seconds per revolution.
There is just no consistency. This is ridiculous!!
How is one supposed to design a PMA like this? ;) ;(
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btw gang. although I am now fully frustrated please do not fear it discourages me.
No, on the contrary! I use this anger to drive me forwards. You think I would let a little wind hold me back? ;)
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The device I was referring to is called a "governor." In elevator systems, the governor is a speed-sensing device that activates the elevator's safety brakes if the elevator car moves too fast. When the elevator exceeds a certain speed, typically indicating a free fall or a significant overspeed condition like cable failure, the governor triggers mechanisms that engage the brakes, bringing the elevator car to a halt. This safety feature is crucial for preventing accidents in the event of mechanical failure.
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>:(
There is just no way around hard work!! endless measurements and mistakes.
[attach=1]
To arrive at an PMA that at least does something then there are no shortcuts to be made I am afraid. You see whether repelling or traditional i can defend both configurations with equal passion and data.
I guess the only real way forward to know for sure is to make use of the process I described in my public thread. I just do not see an alternative yet ;(
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Hey Bruce, I hear you like making things yes?
Let us get together and make this speed govenor ;)
[attach=1]
Hahahah!! This is one of those times AI went totally over board ;)
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ok so early test results suggest that a back iron plating does not benefit a repelling configuration.
So that means that unless I find counter evidence the coming days then traditional still reigns supreme in this dual rotor setup.
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but this makes me question the whole concept of back iron plating.
I mean let us take a mental image.
The idea of back plating is to reduce the resistance for the field to travel trough right? But to where? Yes of course abviously the other pole but in a dual rotor setup where is that pole?
Indeed not on the same disk. So would not then back plating only hurt the intended gain?
hmmm I must be overlooking something glaringly obvious yet for me not yet visible.
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hahah this makes me realize that sometimes one does not need to understand something fully in order to use the effects of it ;)
I mean I am still breathing yet know sooooo little on how it actually works. ;)
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it takes around 1.05 KG to stop the blades rotating while the wind speed is at around 1.5m/s
Do I have reason to celebrate or indeed go lift type ;(
I really am not looking forward to going lift at this stage in time.
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no, lift only comes into play when the self destruct mechanism has been proven to be reliable and also that the whole structure can float on water.
Only then we will see how far lift can increase things.
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The device I was referring to is called a "governor." In elevator systems,
When it comes to Wristwatch, my grandfather was a repair outfit.
I was talking to him about the "regulator" he said NO its the escapement...
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hmmm I must be overlooking something glaringly obvious yet for me not yet visible.
I will update this thread/edit. Im cooking some food to :)
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hahahahhahh
brandnubell
I love how you take effort to change my avatar name.
hahahha
it is a novel twist. One I have not ever seen before in all my years.
hahahha
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hmmm I must be overlooking something glaringly obvious yet for me not yet visible.
I will update this thread/edit. Im cooking some food to :)
Anyway JW, Let me just state that sharing food is a good way to bury hatchets.
So please accept my invitation that should you ever come over to the wrong side of the pond and be near by. Then please be my guest. I will make sure the dining table is full of abundance.
ohh my now I have to start practicing else risk yet other way of reputational damage if my food is not of quality ;)
I really mean this all light heartily and with intend to just be cool and frivolous.
Perhaps if you would extend me the courtesy of editing my own logbook/dairy? It would feel less of an invasion of personal space that way. I am sure that you intended it that way this section yes?
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No, your fine.
I was hopping that you had made recipes and cook etc. Check out my link.
https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,144905.msg986159.html#msg986159
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Ok I have given up on trying to correlate wind speed to an RPM and thus frequency of field reversals at low wind speeds (<3m/s).
Safe to say there is no consistency to be found and that is probably all because of turbulence and general wind direction that is changing a lot and within the footprint of the turbine I can imagine it being in a constant .. well turbulence. I am repeating my self ;).
The amount of work I have to put into analyzing a correlation is too off putting. It is not helping me to just get going.
So I am hoping for the wind to pick up again soon so I can take a few more looks at around 5m/s to see what kind of RPM the turbine rotates then.
But I would not be surprised that also then readings will be all over the place.
So I guess then I should be focusing on what is the max RPM allowed. and make sure that the PMA does something worthwhile well below that.
I also do not know a better idea at the moment :(
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yeah no, this is proving rather impossible.
I am already at 8 seconds per revolution while the weather station registers 3.4m/s.
Now it is all about wind direction I think.
needless to say this will be difficult to really lay a finger on.
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more than 7KG breaking force required to stop the blades spinning at around 3.4m/s
It would be great if the Adriaan would come back and either confirm or deny that these readings are something to write home about.
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ohh wow!! I just realized why going floating might be the dumbest idea ever.
All this effort I put into keeping things safe and working towards having this bird float on water. The very water my family , neighbors and my self swim in each summer. With potentially lethal currents going mayhem.
Bad IDEA
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Please witness the bird at glide mode on the new column. Stealth if you will even. But then only for the auditory sensors.
[attach=1]
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I am aware of a million things to improve upon.
And I can imagine there are like a ten fold of that on things I am not yet aware of I need to improve on.
It is just so peaceful and mesmerizing watching the phoenix spin. How ever slowly. Yet slow is what we want!! slowwww is better in this context.
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BTW, that is not to say that I think I do not need advice.
I think we have already established that I can use advice more than anyone else!!
So if you see something on the turbine that warrants attention then please let me know.
I will always love you for it even if I already saw that particular issue.
It is my 70% 30% 100% rule.
Even though I might already know 70% of the advice given. it are the 30% we are looking for. And the thanks extended to any advice should always be a 100%.
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Reply
Here my obvious looking/.
For Me its ben posting videos
The system, login
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The way your top and bottom allow leakage out of the blade is a must. Its okay to have holes in your blades, preferably to only induce enough drag to get the result you want. Human nature leads us to create cups, but if the air cannot leak then stagnant air gathers at the blade. The leakage allows stagnated air to clear the blade. The barrel-conversion savonius designs often prevent this leakage and it kills efficiency. The air should flow around the blade rather than be stopped/blocked by it. You want that clean air to be accessible to the blade.
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The way your top and bottom allow leakage out of the blade is a must. Its okay to have holes in your blades, preferably to only induce enough drag to get the result you want. Human nature leads us to create cups, but if the air cannot leak then stagnant air gathers at the blade. The leakage allows stagnated air to clear the blade. The barrel-conversion savonius designs often prevent this leakage and it kills efficiency. The air should flow around the blade rather than be stopped/blocked by it. You want that clean air to be accessible to the blade.
Yes brother, please keep it coming!!.
Yet before I had a chance to even start on poking holes in the blades the Pheonix had other plans.
She started to generate a sound that resembles a middle C of a piano. Something around 256Hz. {1}or 440 Hz wha Ii actually believe to be more accurate{/1}
Needless to say now my focus is on what it is she is trying to tell me.
I already have a strong indication that it is this bearing I use to keep the bird upright.
Now if ever I have had a good reason to go scify then now is it.
I mean if store bought bearings start failing then why not try something more futuristic?
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so I have managed to keep my neighbours from revolting against me by overdosing both bearings with WD40.
Now although only the top bearing decided to want to become an opera singer I think this is just a waiting game.
See how long something lasts.
hmm ok well my current track record of components used is the embodiment of how NOT to do it if durability is in mind.
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Trailer hubs are cheap and should be strong enough for that structure.
[attach=1]
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The most important neighbor in my case is the wife. :D
The nastiest noise I've ever had was when the top of a tube was being rubbed. Kind of like the sound a glass makes when you wet your finger and do circles across the top. Only about 1,000x louder.
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so I have managed to keep my neighbor's from revolting against me by overdosing both bearings with WD40.
https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/lucas-oil-products-heavy-duty-oil-stabilizer-1-qt-10001/7080005-P?c3ch=PLA&c3nid=7080005-P&adtype=pla&product_channel=online&store_code=&&&&&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIr96ht-uuhAMVRTbUAR2pjgK5EAQYAiABEgK-kPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/lucas-oil-products-heavy-duty-oil-stabilizer-1-qt-10001/7080005-P?c3ch=PLA&c3nid=7080005-P&adtype=pla&product_channel=online&store_code=&&&&&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIr96ht-uuhAMVRTbUAR2pjgK5EAQYAiABEgK-kPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Dont worry about links here. I am on it
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The most important neighbor in my case is the wife. :D
The nastiest noise I've ever had was when the top of a tube was being rubbed. Kind of like the sound a glass makes when you wet your finger and do circles across the top. Only about 1,000x louder.
You should here the tower next to the house when the grease runs dry in the tube the mast turns in... steel on aluminum... that tower is attached to the house so the noises go right into the house structure!
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This guy went with an exterior scoop, and its a pretty similar radius IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-FqF21wyLc
Notice his pulley size.
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This guy went with an exterior scoop, and its a pretty similar radius IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-FqF21wyLc
Notice his pulley size.
That is a lift/drag type wing, a different design philosophy...
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This guy went with an exterior scoop, and its a pretty similar radius IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-FqF21wyLc
Notice his pulley size.
That is a lift/drag type wing, a different design philosophy...
Its a modified Lenz, so its a different scoop design. The point of the link is to show how massive the pulley ratio he went with. I personally would have gone two smaller stages using chains, but that is just my preference. It was going to be loud regardless of the choice.
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brace for impact!!!
are going to be my infamous last words if storm Louis, that will be here tonight, has anything to say about that.
Now I am going to do something stupid. I am leaving the Phoenix errect. I did fortify the guywires though.
I just need to see what will happen so I can learn what to focus on next iteration.
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ohh wow,
Now I am getting nervous!
I tried keeping the Phoenix on a diet. So far that has been working out rather nice.
But what If the guy wires decide to go on a strike?
Then the whole bird will actually fly!!
hmmm.
hmm.
I will reconsider going full steel or maybe even lead ;) who cares about the health impact of lead anyways ;)
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nooooooo. even before the storm hit, yeah sure things are picking up already here, I already have to take her down.
It is the part that prevents the upper bearing from slipping down that is in serious need of redesign.
nooo. Now I have missed this window op opportunity to see thing horribly go wrong :(
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I am actually thankful JW. Now I have again in my playlist this song!!
And in some ways I think what you tried to tell me is that I am needed.
Thank you JW!
Reply
Here my obvious looking/.
For Me its ben posting videos
The system, login
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I am at the service of the greater good.
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And please all you have got to see this!
It is about how difficult it is to back down to a statement one made early on.
Especially if it has gotten a lot of traction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R9cIDjXH2k
(JW, you and I both know this is just and ID QS yes?)
Now I for one am just so blunt that it is rather easy for me to admit when I made a mistake.
Yet what if I had to back track after acclaim?
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@MattM,
So these original cups are holding on longer than I expected. I had expected them to be pulp by now.
So now is a good time to start punching holes in them.
Can you suggest some kind of pattern? Or how much surface area should stay intact. those kind of things.
And as always. Even if we do not get it optimal or even right the first try. It is the thought that counts!
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also, please allow me to be perfectly clear.
I am complaining a lot about charlatans and snake oil.
None of the people that interact with me here are addressed. It is mostly the endless videos I can find online and also of course the cheap products sold as a gazzilion KW alternator from our friends in the east.
On top of that I have seen quite a few "start ups" selling/promoting their "new" design. It's out there and it's rampant.
I am mad because I fell victim once. Because back then I was just as clueless as I am to this very day. Hmm ok a bit less now than back then.
So hence my nagging about how to quantify things.
In essence it is not about me being able to show that I have something great. Of course that would be great if that results from all of this.
But the real goal is to be able to fend off or hold accountable the many many scams out there.
Wind has a bad reputation because it has been abused for far too long.
it is my mission in life to do something about that!.
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@MattM,
I think I have an idea that might work.
What if I just cut the blades horizontally at lets say 30cm spacing. And then we can just space those segments apart at leisure. So we can see in practise what works or not.
If nothing seems to benefit us we can always put them back where they are now as to end up where we started.
But now the question is. How do we determine if a blade segment configuration benefits or not?
I guess it is by using this suitcase measuring device I use to measure how much KG is needed to stop blades from turning.
But the problem with that method is that the wind is always changing so it is rather hard to come up with consistent results like that.
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A uniform pattern would be good. Do you have something to use as a template?
May start with minor holes centerline. But one vertically in the middle. If any air is stagant anywhere, its going to be there. Air will work itself from center to path of least total resistance.
How big of holes are you thinking? Air going through holes can generate noise. I was thinking around 10 mm could be quite noisy at a high pitch once air gets to above 30 mph. Storm sirens use 25mm-ish or better holes and spin to generate air velocity above 100 mph, so you shouldn't ever hit that. One line vertically down the center then new lines of holes offset 60 degree angles to one another. Don't need to do the entire cup. Three rows is pretty significant leakage. Too much air leakage would not be the goal, so do not get too crazy with them. If you do over due it you can simply add a liner (duct tape to the rescue) to the leading edge of the cup to patch over them. The sides of your cup will direct the air to these holes.
Oops, saw the second idea. I like your second idea better. Cutting holes or lines are the options. The holes are fast to cut one but could be significant time doing rows. But horizontal cuts with a table saw or circular saw should be faster.
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I am not sure gang how I should take this all.
Now most of the gang here are cool and collected and I really wish to meet you all once in real life and then shake hand and give a knod of appreciation.
Yet recent developments make we second guess if I am still in the right place.
And when we think about it it is all so relatively simple.
treat each other with respect and then the world will be better.
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When I visit my focus is on recent posts. I've watched most of the posts form from the first days, sure, but recent posts are new information. Your posts are there. Not sure anybody really digs through old posts except to revisit memorable ideas.
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I don't know ok that its best for the site to be about high traffic new projects. We have an archive and think about such past members as Flux.
By no means are we a beginners site. Not that that's bad... but you have to study do your research.
Im sorry but the post i was reading from Sparweb is advanced as hell. https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,150879.msg1064090.html#msg1064090
We dont want to turn away beginners but they have to do there homework to be here, otherwise its a waste.
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I'm trying to wrap my head around your thoughts, JW. Are you striving for better english speakers? Because when it comes to actual trial and error projects, that is what drove this place 15 years ago. Your coloring of brandnewb's work as something less is confusing because he has been breaking the project into separate subjects for the purpose of tackling individual issues. I have not seen any of his work to be simple or undisciplined. He is testing using scientific methods. That was how the site has worked all along.
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test post
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I'm trying to wrap my head around your thoughts, JW. Are you striving for better english speakers? Because when it comes to actual trial and error projects, that is what drove this place 15 years ago. Your coloring of brandnewb's work as something less is confusing because he has been breaking the project into separate subjects for the purpose of tackling individual issues. I have not seen any of his work to be simple or undisciplined. He is testing using scientific methods. That was how the site has worked all along.
I think JW would like it to be condensed into the user diary section where it would be easier to follow instead of a ton of separate posts...
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I'm happy to see beginners starting out, trying things, even making mistakes and learning from them. That's important. Reality will teach you many lessons, but you have to test your understanding of reality sometimes. Smarty-pants like me, can only explain so much. Nature is the best teacher. The rest is up you you to figure out. That's the point of DIY - do-it-YOUrself.
I find that a word or two of encouragement can go a long way, too. It didn't take much to keep me going. My first attempts weren't successful. I did some bone-headed mistakes. It was safe to share the stories of failure, and the others (at the time) steered me straight again. I've come a long way, but I still don't know everything. In so many ways (so many ways!) I'm still learning and trying new things. So if that makes me a "noob" still, then I would wear it with pride.
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I had 2 failures due to the extreme winds I get... I gave up and decided solar panels were easier! Keeping things in the air here is a major challenge. Heck ground mounted solar panels have been a major challenge with broken metal brackets from fatigue! I started with the typical galvanized metal house construction brackets to hold the wood frame together. Current iteration is now 1/4 inch thick steel plates!
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Ya I blocked him from posting for 29 days. Otherwise unrestricted. We will see if he sees the light. I don't care if he comes back.
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Can someone tell me what this means?
{2}And although playing with powder fields is great as was thought to me at kindergarten before I was born (yeah we role a little different here on the wrong side of the pond :)) I have these sheets of plastic that can show fields in 2 dimensions. visualizing in 3d just means moving the sheet up and down and making a video of it for analysis after the fact.{/2}
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Ya I blocked him from posting for 29 days. Otherwise unrestricted. We will see if he sees the light. I don't care if he comes back.
What the hell for??
You don't make any sense.
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Look when you're in the backend of the forum, you would see what I see. Ive seen security issues in a flash. You have the luxury of not having to deal with that.
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Its going to take 15 days to fix Brandnewb's account
I will say this again... WE ARE EXPIENCING A SERVER PROBLEM.
Our host will not allow us to correct the error, it is a security reason, until that's resolved I cant do anything.
Im going to leave the site up and running deletion of files are not a problem.
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I believe he can post now.
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You have no idea of the possibility of what could be happening do you. Over the years I have seen uc/users install bugs and viruses. Ive seen it many times. Im not going get into this anymore. I Have Identified the bug. we have systems provided by our host that protect us. anyway you guys have never seen the attacks we have endured. Due to the closed minds here lately, I dont feel like talking about this anymore. Your safe be happy. I have regained some urls that I lost and am going to work on them. there is a huge vulnerability that materialized with brandnewbe showed up. you guys need to relie on Flavio, im trying to get him the access he needs from the host. theres alot going on but we cannot fix it until I follow thru on the hosts identification system (user/owner). Untill we are verified by the host, they wont do anything, if there is an attack of sometype going on were helpless, untill we are verified by the host as the true owner/user we can not fix the security issue. When I started working on the web it was fun, but threats have evolved and things have changed. You try to make an SMF fORUM like this one and tell me all about it...
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JW, let us try and reason. If I wanted to be a security issue then you know I can be.
I have all the experience needed to lay flat a server or even several of them by means of distributed denial of service.
Also I know how to look for weak points and how to abuse an attack surface to get into systems where I do not belong and certainly am not welcome.
However!! And here comes the important part. I am here as a friend. Not as your adversary.
Please just trust I only post here and do nothing else to risk the stable operation of your website.
kind regards
You have no idea of the possibility of what could be happening do you. Over the years I have seen uc/users install bugs and viruses. Ive seen it many times. Im not going get into this anymore. I Have Identified the bug. we have systems provided by our host that protect us. anyway you guys have never seen the attacks we have endured. Due to the closed minds here lately, I dont feel like talking about this anymore. Your safe be happy. I have regained some urls that I lost and am going to work on them. there is a huge vulnerability that materialized with brandnewbe showed up. you guys need to relie on Flavio, im trying to get him the access he needs from the host. theres alot going on but we cannot fix it until I follow thru on the hosts identification system (user/owner). Untill we are verified by the host, they wont do anything, if there is an attack of sometype going on were helpless, untill we are verified by the host as the true owner/user we can not fix the security issue. When I started working on the web it was fun, but threats have evolved and things have changed. You try to make an SMF fORUM like this one and tell me all about it...
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However!! And here comes the important part. I am here as a friend. Not as your adversary.
Your over thinking the situation. I don't consider you an adversary LOL :)
I built and own the site, I like to raise a little hell every now and then. Don't reply just yet, let me get back to you, need to think about this some more :)
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against all odds here I go again JW. in your defence mind you!!
So tomorrow new plates of steel will arrive for the alternator but also to reduce the wobbling of the turbine.
you see I figured to use JB weld to cold weld (100% of both surfaces) the current 500x500x5mm alu plate where the arms rest on to a steel one of 10mm thickness
I am kind of hoping the cold weld will make for a non conductive bond as to avoid the issues one might normally have attaching steel to alu
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ok, so my trustty steel supplier is now officially rebranded as my rusty (as in steel) supplier.
That stuff still is not in and although the carrier does have an open track and trace they also have not gotten anything.
calling the supplier was also no help so I guess next week then.
I do trust it's not a scam so this is just a case of a tardy shipment/delivery.
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So gang.
The results. how ever good or poor are coming.
You see I, once again, am going with Mary's suggestion to just build rather than endless analysis.
I have already done so much of that that I have a gut feeling that I can pull it off.
But to make sure I can adjust the velocity of the PMA in case things go south I am letting go of the direct drive for now.
I am printing pullies as we speak for a 1 to 1 ratio timing belt driven PMA so it can be detached from the turbine.
If things suck hard I can always change the ratio and see if that improves things.
But if a 1 to 1 ratio works in practice then the direct drive will be back at a later time.
Think of the amount of time this will save to just dive in head first!!! let us deal with issues when we get there, if at all.
So this all is a friendly reminder that even though I am slow in nature. I do not forget everything I have ever read and sometimes. or rather often times your suggestions might just come back at a later time as the detaching of the PMA was also not my idea. Someone here suggested that.
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@MaryB,
I wanted to express my disagreement with you out of public viewing so that the index bots like google and bing are not in the know :)
I just still believe that testing a coils ability for the magnetic field it can create is of utmost importance.
Please allow me to elaborate.
In my endless testing I found that any coil shapes I tried can produce a field. But their range and strength can be manipulated by the shape of the coil.
Now in your defense I will admit the following. That I am not certain if testing a coil for field using a DC fed current is similar to what I really want to know.
And that is what the field would look like if it was induced by magnets rotating over them thus creating an AC situation.
But it is the best I have at the moment.
I'll be honest. I am soo eager to see what this PMA will do in practice. I can't wait.
Now be honest everyone. What are your expectations? Will it suck, perform just ok nothing to write home about, or do something unexpected entirely?
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brandnewb you are weird, I read your posts you don't make a lot of sense...
Just bear in mind that I am the site owner. You should realize I am ultimately responsible for what all users post and do. They have a picture of my DL on file...
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Dear JW,
Since this is a non public thread I am going to be a little more harsh than I normally am.
Now brother. How many times have you stated that you own this site? a million times over and over?
And how many times have I disputed that? 0
How many times have I tried to reach out and help? I think maybe 3 or 4 times by now? Also my last try in a DM just recently.
Just trust that I certainly do not think I am not making any sense. Well at least to me that is.
You see I am slowly crawling to where I want to end up. And it is going to be wonderful.
This is my coping mechanism JW. I mean we all have our issues. I have mine others have theirs. For me it is important to just be bold and plow through if there is no real evidence that I am aware of.
In the end of the day we will come full circle. In where I stated that when all is said and done then I think I will have garnered your appreciation.
Now back to the topic of sharing food JW! I am still practicing my cooking skills by the off chance that you are indeed in the NL and close by one day.
Now are you are meat guy like your chicken oriented post I saw suggests or are you also up for something more exotic? :)
brandnewb you are weird, I read your posts you don't make a lot of sense...
Just bear in mind that I am the site owner. You should realize I am ultimately responsible for what all users post and do. They have a picture of my DL on file...
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I'll be honest. I am soo eager to see what this PMA will do in practice. I can't wait.
Now be honest everyone. What are your expectations? Will it suck, perform just ok nothing to write home about, or do something unexpected entirely?
Am I really the only one that is interested in what this PMA will do?
My lord what a tough crowd :)
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screw this. I am not going to wait +9hrs for a timing belt pully print that will probably fail somewhere when I was not watching.
I am going to use another timing belt as pully.
Of course this is beyond reason at the moment but I just need to get something done and STAT!!
Please remember this is all still an early proof of concept stage. SO cutting corners HARD is allowed at this stage and time.
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I am printing pullies as we speak for a 1 to 1 ratio timing belt driven PMA so it can be detached from the turbine.
Is there a reason why you want to detach the PMA from the turbine?
Bruce S
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The reasoning is multifold.
For one I am worried that once the load on the alternator (battery bank directly or cheap charge controller) will slow down the turbine to a crawl and hence also the voltage the PMA can produce.
(but on the other hand I am not dismayed by that at all. It then signals me that the PMA has got the potential I am looking for)
I can then change the drive ratio to something else in an effort to match the PMA to the load.
Another reason is that although I no longer see the turbine column flex what so ever (after upgrading it to alu 100mmx5mm) I am still worried that because it actually still is flexing or will eventually become worse then we get to the point of Adraain's remark in where he warned about the potential issues with a flexing column in a direct drive scenario.
Now I know one of you posted a suggestion here in another thread earlier with an image of how to deal with that. My best guess it was MattM but given he does not remember I must be mistaken.
Another reason is so that I can consider going 100% serpentine. No more modularity. This is only an advantage if the PMA can still be taken for service without having to dismantle the whole turbine. Thus having the PMA detached is beneficial in that regard.
Now of course I am aiming for the least amount of possible points of failure, so if it turns out that a 1:1 ratio works then gone be pullies and timing belts. Then the direct drive is back in town and here to stay.
I am printing pullies as we speak for a 1 to 1 ratio timing belt driven PMA so it can be detached from the turbine.
Is there a reason why you want to detach the PMA from the turbine?
Bruce S
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The Best reason the PMA/Turbine has slowed to a crawl would be the batteries are full. Other reason there isn't enough wind velocity to keep the turbine moving and charging.
Running the turbine unloaded is a very BAD idea. Even though most VAWTs are somewhat self-limiting , they too can still go into a runaway just like HAWTs can do given enough wind speed.
"going 100% serpentine" What is going 100%? Your windings ? Your belts (This would be similar to a car's belt for accessories).
Bruce S
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I meant with 100% serpentine is to not have any breaks in the coil. So basically a single snake (per phase so 3 in total overlapping each other) that runs, unbroken, around the whole disk.
This goes against the ability to (de)install the PMA in segments. I can still go for a serpentine in segments but then the start and end slots will be half winds of that of those in between.
The longer I think of it the less I see the point of closed loop coils. I must be overlooking something.
And I'll say it again here as well. I think by now that stacking coils and a serpentine in segments (not the unbroken serpentine) are basically the same thing.
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Perhaps this chap's explanation will help?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK1ZM9WIBh4&list=WL&index=119
Also ; on here a great many years ago, Ed Lenz (Yes, that Ed Lenz ) also had what he called a "WAVE" winding.
https://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3phase_turbine_kit.htm
Here's a link to his kit, but the explanation remains the same.
There are pros and cons of each type, for me WAVE & Serpentine are identical, the English Chap's method and tools you can print out and reuse seems the easiest these days.
Bruce S
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Serpentines are highly efficient use of wire. I read the serpentine coil can use 40% less material for the same output. That makes it actually a pretty good solution. The downside is its much more difficult to do multiple phases. Doing more phases seems justifiable when in general it usually decreases cogging.
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Serpentines are highly efficient use of wire. I read the serpentine coil can use 40% less material for the same output. That makes it actually a pretty good solution. The downside is its much more difficult to do multiple phases. Doing more phases seems justifiable when in general it usually decreases cogging.
yeah i'd be real curious where you read that.
i still don't understand why its not rather easy to make 3 to 6 serpentine coils, and use a press to push them together and force the end turns to overlap each other. you should then get a 3-6 phase mostly trapezoidal waveform that you can rectify separately or together in various combinations to change the voltage.
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for 3 coils in a serpentine I would need 302.821mm of wire path.
for 3 closed loop coils I would need 489.567mm of wire path.
{1}perhaps easer to draw conclusions if I use the wire path length of 2 coils.
for 2 serpentine coils that is 223.189mm wire path length
of 2 closed loop coils that is 2 x 163.189mm = 324.812mm wire path length
{/1}
when using closed loop coils I can fit 48 of them on a disk. between the closed loop coils there is no field of the same phase.
when using serpentine coils I can fit 96 of them on a disk with no gaps in the field per phase.
But since 2 coils in a serpentine share a coil leg I still have to establish by means of experiment the electromagnetic al field the serpentine coils can generate will be half of that of its closed loop counter part. But i think so. that would be only logical.
But since we use less copper the resistance will decrease thus the field producing ability will increase.
choices choices :)
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the problem I have encountered with pressing is it is easier said than done.
one want the coils to stay in place while pressing so that means the the press must slip in between the coil holder slots.
Now with anything from 1mm diam wires that could work on the leg part as then the coil wires in that part are not easy to slip in between the coil holder slot and the press.
For the extremity parts of the coil they will not want to move and forcing them is asking, nee begging, for the enamel to get damaged.
But I will try pressing with these .71mm diam wires. see if I can print the press just snug enough for the wires not being able to slip through and that the extremety parts of the coils will spread open easy enough without too much friction between the wires.
And then we end up with a 3 phase coil that we need to take out of the template we pressed it in :) that will also take a week by my current battle plan, if one wants to do it carefully not risking wires to get damaged in the process :)
Serpentines are highly efficient use of wire. I read the serpentine coil can use 40% less material for the same output. That makes it actually a pretty good solution. The downside is its much more difficult to do multiple phases. Doing more phases seems justifiable when in general it usually decreases cogging.
yeah i'd be real curious where you read that.
i still don't understand why its not rather easy to make 3 to 6 serpentine coils, and use a press to push them together and force the end turns to overlap each other. you should then get a 3-6 phase mostly trapezoidal waveform that you can rectify separately or together in various combinations to change the voltage.
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when taking into account the extra wirelength a coil will need at the ends of it's legs I made use of half circles this time around to more closly resemble the wire path in practice rather than an unobtainable optimum like I did earlier.
187.808721mm for one closed loop coil.
and for 2 serpentine coils that would be.
247.805151mm
now / 2 = 123.9025755 for 1 serpentine coil even though that can not exist in nature.
So then when calculating then the extra amount of wire between the paths then I end up with
41.0034% of a difference. Rather close to what MattM has read.
Now I am really interested in this serpentine coils and am going for it. But before Ifinalize the PMA before it can go into service I will measure the fields the coils can produce as opposed to their closed loop counter parts.
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hahaha and of course I blundered again magnificently with the idea of using a timing belt as the pulley profile for a similar timing belt.
The belts came in today and that will never work. not even if one really really wanted it to work :( :0
So I have learned that it is perfectly possible to print T10 timing belt pullies with a 1mm nozzle so that prints take around 1 hour rather than more than 9hrs with a 0.2mm nozzle I used for a T5 timing belt pulley.
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Dear brother,
I did not want to say anything at first but then I thought it important that I would.
This guy is high on my list of people to avoid. This guy is full of half stories and never actually demonstrates things actually.
It took a superior of his to make him admit he screwed up royalty in one of his videos regarding using a lits wire as coil wire using some exotic configuration. And even then he side stepped the actually issue where he let us on the wrong path.
This guy is a danger to society for as far I have been able to value his content.
Perhaps this chap's explanation will help?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK1ZM9WIBh4&list=WL&index=119
Also ; on here a great many years ago, Ed Lenz (Yes, that Ed Lenz ) also had what he called a "WAVE" winding.
https://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3phase_turbine_kit.htm
Here's a link to his kit, but the explanation remains the same.
There are pros and cons of each type, for me WAVE & Serpentine are identical, the English Chap's method and tools you can print out and reuse seems the easiest these days.
Bruce S
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I tried imgur several times now. I do not like their policies.
Also I am building a turbine. Not a self hosted image sharing platform.
So I am going to do the unspeakable unless forbidden.
Look at how syco this looks. and then to think this is only half of the magnets
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/building-the-sickest-%C2%AE-vawt-ever-brilliant-minds-unite-please.31934/page-82#post-1034604
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Dear brother,
I did not want to say anything at first but then I thought it important that I would.
This guy is high on my list of people to avoid. This guy is full of half stories and never actually demonstrates things actually.
It took a superior of his to make him admit he screwed up royalty in one of his videos regarding using a lits wire as coil wire using some exotic configuration. And even then he side stepped the actually issue where he let us on the wrong path.
This guy is a danger to society for as far I have been able to value his content.
Perhaps this chap's explanation will help?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK1ZM9WIBh4&list=WL&index=119
Also ; on here a great many years ago, Ed Lenz (Yes, that Ed Lenz ) also had what he called a "WAVE" winding.
https://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3phase_turbine_kit.htm
Here's a link to his kit, but the explanation remains the same.
There are pros and cons of each type, for me WAVE & Serpentine are identical, the English Chap's method and tools you can print out and reuse seems the easiest these days.
Bruce S
Then we will need to agree to disagree.
Unless you can show proof of what you're stating.
Especially since I used his SAND battery steps to build a "test" one with no issues
And since you didn't say which one , I'm guessing you're talking about the Englishman.
Bruce S
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I am talking about this dude
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ttV0zt5XOE
here he goes on with a flat coil, which he calls a lits wire while it is not a litz wire, and shows how to wind an exotic coil configuration. but then leaves out the important bits like he normally does. Like testing things and demonstrating its capabilities.
here he tries to wiggle his way after being called out. But does so in the least convincing way ever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=213PDBS66lo
I did not look at your other link yet though. I have not formed an opinion yet about that.
So can we agree to agree again?
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ahh yes I did also look at that other link. I saw nothing to complain about on windstuffnow btw.
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In short Nope.
I've watched even that one, and while he made a mistake he had apologized , unlike most others who will not.
Therefore I will continue to agree to disagree about the English Chap.
Good thing on Ed's for several reasons, that I will not go into at this point.
You do your stuff. The links were mainly so you had extra reference points not a critique of an individual.
Bruce S
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after reviewing that video again in the defence of this dude though I hear him saying "then snip it in half" while making the "lits wire" while we never see that happen.
Now if both ends of the wire are indeed a bunch of parallel enameld wires then ok then it is a litz wire. But I think he never snipped it in half as I can see no signs of that when looking at his wire.
I guess he got tired and forgot that important part and ended up with a super flat and super long coil that will do next to nothing in practise.
But anyway this guy I like to avoid as all he does is regurgitate fun experiments of others while neglecting to do some actual testing with those ideas.
If I do not avoid stuff like that I will never get anything done I am afraid.
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I would like to make it known that in the meantime I also have bought and gotten a packerpack of Homebrew Wind Power by Dan Bartman & Dan Fink.
It was suggested to me elsewhere and I saw some interesting entries in the table of contents.
It is a great book that for sure. But unless I am once again unable to find what will help me get to 52vAC at 3.7 Hz then again I think I should trust my self some more :)
Anyway. the proof of concept PMA rotors are ready for trail runs. all 192 magnets!!
I am now going for a serpentine version of the stacked coils as it is basically the same thing but then with a little less resistance in the coil wires overall.
I might revisit my posts once pasting images is possible and easy to do so that I can add images at the places where they make sense in my posts.
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@joestru
Here I am going to give the push through template another chance.
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/building-the-sickest-%C2%AE-vawt-ever-brilliant-minds-unite-please.31934/post-1035320
If this can work then the pressing of coils makes sense again to me.
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things are looking good for stacked serpentine coils thus far. I just do hope I did not blunder again.
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/building-the-sickest-%C2%AE-vawt-ever-brilliant-minds-unite-please.31934/post-1035939
TLDR: sharing coil legs between coils does not half the field. So basically we get 200% of field available to all magnets when using serpentine.
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@JW, are you sure there is no way for us to just lift the limits of this front end and let us use an actual SQL statement?
I am still frustrated by the fact that one of the community posted the very best suggestion on how to deal with the wobbling of a direct drive. It is in your database I KNOW!! But how to retrieve it?
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also I am going to incorporate a 4 times rotational speed increase.
I really would like to share why but I also would like to test the waters if there are still actually people interested in the why?
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ok gang, I have a confession to make.
It is going to take too long and argue...
hahha nah gang :)
Let us liven up the mood.
Truth be told that I am a little ready to rock the foundations when it needs to be.
Yet never let it be said that I am not willing to help { argg screw this. mu auto correct cant help me convey what it is I want to}
Now that said.
-----------------------
I have some interesting news to share.
#2
ok I have one for us. One that does strike home.
Now I can demonstrate that the benefit of an iron core is directly related to the amount of resistance there is in the whole coil.
Weird yes? yes for me also. So it might well be that I could be mistaken.
Yet I do not think I am.
Can one pealse challenge me on this?
How to conduct proper experiments with the tools I have.
Now if you are going to hide behind not knowing the tools I have then I say 2 things.
* hey great you are new to the party. let us get you up to speed.
* ahh see how I just saw through your actual intend?
And then there a 3rd one. Just a misunderstanding that so many of us fall into this category.
#3
and I hate to have to spell it out. It are the people that do not with...
argg. screww this
Come on Joe And Ed. show some Chest.!!
#4
#now this was not in invitation to flame wars.
how could it have been since I am also a respected smart person.
This is however just one smart guy to another. come one lets get it on within the boundary that are set here.
It could lead of course to a misunderstanding in where I thought more than that there was. .
Ok I will go lick my wounds and now I have to deal with the even lower social standing I had to begin with.
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the more senior amongst us of course will read things contrary.
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You will stay muted for a few days, I did warn you. The positive side is you can take some time off and gather your thoughts instead of continuously ramble.
I also expected you to take the hint but alas... :(
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You may post again but your posts will be reviewed by moderators before being published, for now.
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Flavio we have like 5 admins give them a chance to reply.
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JW;
From reading these most recent posts, I think he's more apt to listen to Flavio than either me, Mary or any other.
I applaud Flavio for trying and reminding him.
Bruce S
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Friends,
This is just me being miserable.
Let me find the most correct words to say what need to be said. And even now I am sure I will screw this up.
In essence.
I think this is the best place to share knowledge.
In practice:
I get my feathers ruffled at times as there are respected players here that know soo much more than I ever will yet leave me hanging.
Now that introduces my pride mechanism.
I do not care about being wrong at times. that does not influence my pride.
All I'd lie to make knows is that I care about this forum and that I am willing to stick my neck out to make it thrive again.
With no strings attached other than that the one holding the strings is one I feel confident in.
Now I will go into hibernation here. As I do not wish to fuffle feathers just for the fuffle.
We will meet again in the future and I will still love you.
Remember in where I had in mind this meeting in person? In where I will shake your hand and give this nod of respect?
kind regards
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Friends,
This is just me being miserable.
Let me find the most correct words to say what need to be said. And even now I am sure I will screw this up.
In essence.
I think this is the best place to share knowledge.
In practice:
I get my feathers ruffled at times as there are respected players here that know soo much more than I ever will yet leave me hanging.
Now that introduces my pride mechanism.
I do not care about being wrong at times. that does not influence my pride.
All I'd lie to make knows is that I care about this forum and that I am willing to stick my neck out to make it thrive again.
With no strings attached other than that the one holding the strings is one I feel confident in.
Now I will go into hibernation here. As I do not wish to fuffle feathers just for the fuffle.
We will meet again in the future and I will still love you.
Remember in where I had in mind this meeting in person? In where I will shake your hand and give this nod of respect?
kind regards
All you have to do is collect your thoughts for the day in a wordpad document(or other form, pick an editor) then edit it so it makes sense THEN make one post a day instead of shotgun posts all over the place that are disjointed and impossible to follow. So simple and what I do when working on a large project.