I've seen the u_tube posts showing how the batteries are torn down. Similar to this is "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l665eovBlEk"
Bruce S
Making a large PLANTE, Lead Acid Battery.
10 years ago my experimentations and developments with these PLANTE batteries were actively disapproved off on most ‘Sustainability, Renewable Energy Forums’ around the World. And even In 2015 when we were discussing here the Make your own Inverter the old ‘boys’ from the ‘armchair Wafflers brigade’ got relatively heated
Okay, if you read the specs of the so called Exide PLANTE battery the Negative plates are a grid matrix paste filled, but only the Anode is pure sheet lead. So i doubt the paste plates on the negative cathode will last more than normal commercial Forklift types.
Mary, Sadly a standard bucket is not going to cut it, as its important to supporting the plates, or holding them upright properly. As you can see with the Exide pic above each of the 12 plates is supported with a wedged tang on just one side.
So might do mine with two wedge tangs per plate then holding each plate with the case however sediment could short the plates out on the case lip that will support, but i can see why they just do one wedge tang on each plate as this stops Cathode shorting with the Anode over time with sediment, so if its just cathode wedge tangs on one side of the case and Anode support on the other side of the case lifting lip.
And again alternate the base support at the bottom of the inside of the battery with one support comb for anode and one for cathode plates. That means that each of the 12 plates will have a side lip support and a base support. Yep that looks a goer.
Preliminary Case design .......
I did think about a slightly tapering internal case, but i think a lip in the case like above pic is good as the plates are unlikely to get wedged in with this kind of big and heavy battery, and beside so much easier to get the plates out of the case and wash and repair in the future.
My previous cells i made up relied on the case top supporting the plates on the main bus bars, but with a big and heavy battery a case lip internally would be good.
Yes, it is possible to get transparent polypropylene.
normal soft lead that i use for making 14lb weights in Horology.I would've thought those would be iron or pot metal, given that people need to pull on them every so often.
Thanks 'joestue'.
I am going to start needing information like yours in the near future.
Even my rolled lead sheet getting here is becoming a nightmare.
Getting that 99.94% pure lead in France is just not going to happen as few here do any smelting, and those that do wont tell me the purity or they them selves don't seem to know.
I do have a few Kgs of bullet lead that i inherited from a relative, he used to shoot full bore for a Club in the UK, mostly at the Bisley range and would make up his own ammunition.
But the bullet lead its very brittle and also very hard compared to normal soft lead that i use for making 14lb weights in Horology.
Yes would be interested to know what is in true Bullet lead.
seems to me you could make a roller to form the lead into .5mm wide and deep grooves.
I have some Rolls re-combining caps/miser caps coming here, Ordered last year but got lost in the Global transport issues, and i want to take them apart and examine them. They are not that expensive from Rolls so will look see and make a judgement on making your own or buying in Rolls.
Also wanted to see there attachment method to the top of the battery and if i need to beef up our PLANTE battery lid to take a thread for them to fit into.
You mentioned somewhere in your posts that you were experimenting with re-combining lead acid battery caps. How far have you got?
I have some Rolls re-combining caps/miser caps coming here, Ordered last year but got lost in the Global transport issues, and i want to take them apart and examine them. They are not that expensive from Rolls so will look see and make a judgement on making your own or buying in Rolls.
Thank you for that info.
Is that mastic up to coping with Acid?
... about WATERMISER. I will have a look see.
Thank you for that info.
Is that mastic up to coping with Acid?
Astro,
No, this is a simple PLANTE cell battery but with a mechanical modern plate forming process to increase the paste forming process and surface area during the 30 times charge and discharge cycles.
More importantly what I am trying to do is keep the PLANTE battery as simple as possible for the ordinary man wherever on the Planet they might live. So all processes will be as simple as possible.
So far only the Stainless steel groove roller will need supplying if you can not make it easily, but with that i am trying to keep the roller itself simple and then it will work with a hand tool.
I you are wondering why my postings have been silent so far this year? But sorry other projects have had to be accelerated up my priority list.
Especially as Europe goes into Turmoil, there is no handy sea or ocean between me and the latest Planet aggressor.
I have been supporting some Australians on a Renewable Forum in Aus, as they experiment with a simple Plante bare lead sheet cell.
Probably best to stay away from the politics (here on FL it's a drag). In general I don't like following dreadful subjects on social media and in fact, I've cut that out of my life as much as possible.
I know, it's hard to avoid when there are dire things happening out there.
Fieldlines is best when it's a refuge from that. We build.
Lead shot IS NOT a danger to hunters, if you bite down on one you know it instantly! It is also hardened lead so you are not going to chew it. Might break a tooth if you try! And a good cook looks for the pellets and works them out of the meat before preparing it. Birds shot with it have been tested, as have deer shot with lead bullets. NO lead found in the meat!
Printers lead is hard stuff, if you used the individual letters it is very high in tin and antimony and is used a LOT by bullet casters to add tin to their lead to harden it.
Lead shot IS NOT a danger to hunters, if you bite down on one you know it instantly! It is also hardened lead so you are not going to chew it. Might break a tooth if you try! And a good cook looks for the pellets and works them out of the meat before preparing it. Birds shot with it have been tested, as have deer shot with lead bullets. NO lead found in the meat!
Ok a quick question. I was reading where and it may have been mentioned in this thread, that you can expect about 1 AH per square inch of lead. I understand that is why the roller and grooves are important to try and maximize that number. What I am unsure of is, you obviously are going to have 2 plates minimum and for home made 2 plates is the easiest. Those plates will have equal amount of square inches. I assume the 1 AH per square inch is from one plate, right?
So say you had 100 square inch pos plate and 100 square inch neg plate for a total of 200 square inches. But that is a 100 ah battery, and not 200 ah, correct??
Sorry I know it is a dumb question, I just want to make sure I understand 100% because obviously it affects the numbers when figuring out what to build and the cost of what to build.
Thanks.
Ok a quick question. I was reading where and it may have been mentioned in this thread, that you can expect about 1 AH per square inch of lead. I understand that is why the roller and grooves are important to try and maximize that number. What I am unsure of is, you obviously are going to have 2 plates minimum and for home made 2 plates is the easiest. Those plates will have equal amount of square inches. I assume the 1 AH per square inch is from one plate, right?
So say you had 100 square inch pos plate and 100 square inch neg plate for a total of 200 square inches. But that is a 100 ah battery, and not 200 ah, correct??
Sorry I know it is a dumb question, I just want to make sure I understand 100% because obviously it affects the numbers when figuring out what to build and the cost of what to build.
Thanks.
Okay, some where in my posts i have mentioned a rough figure per sq inch, but this depends on the original thickness of the lead that you are trying to turn the surface into lead oxide.
A cell, is for me in my calculations, when one lead sheet faces another lead sheet in a sulphuric acid mix of 15 parts water to 1 of 80% pure sulphuric acid. Obviously the lead plates will be double sided use, but the end plates will only need roller ribbing on one side.
And here is the crux of the matter and my experimentation procedures The thicker the lead, the less capacity the lead cell will have. I think 'Dinix71 has eluded to this in his post on the 9th March. ie, the thinner the lead sheet the quicker the oxide can form, but then the life of the cell is short as a modern commercial battery, so hence me going for a 2.24mm thick lead sheet at first and seeing if i hit the sweet spot, although i may have to increase that thickness to double that, but wee will see.
The roller process adds 2 main objectives, yes the actual surface area that turns to oxide will be greater that just bare Lead sheet with out any indentations. Also the roller ribbing will allow the oxides to form in such away as to stop the oxide from just dropping away if the cell is disturbed.
In general, with commercial batteries the grid matrix structure holds the oxides and a stiffener spacer is each side of each lead plate to hold the oxides as long as possible before the oxide crumbles away to the bottom of the batteries, hence the plates are wedged into the battery case.
The second objective of our roller processes is to strengthen the lead sheet by allowing a border around the outside of each lead sheet.
100ah could be for one cell, but a minimum of 6 cells joined in parallel to get the Ah rate higher, However 6 cells is best, any more and internal resistance starts to come into play with the figures, and with 6 cells its about the max i have designed the case to handle expansion from the cells. We do not want the battery case just to split after a few years off use.
For the size I am making with a standard Plante design, and my calculations/ figures suggest about a 450ah with my 6 cells at 2v. However, because of the roller being used i expect higher figures of Amp Hour, how high in real conditions has not been proven yet.
As you can now see there are lots of variable's at play here so I am using my mechanical engineering skills and that all important empirical evidence to push the Plante battery concept into the modern age. And also give us a good all round LONG LIFE lead acid battery where weight is not a concern but resilience, longevity and cost effectiveness is..
I trust this helps.
Sorry I know it is a dumb question, I just want to make sure I understand 100% because obviously it affects the numbers when figuring out what to build and the cost of what to build.
Thanks.
Sorry I know it is a dumb question, I just want to make sure I understand 100% because obviously it affects the numbers when figuring out what to build and the cost of what to build.
Thanks.
At present the experimental phase of a PLANTE battery does not make it cost effective against comercial battery manufactureres.
However for me i need 48 off these 2v PLANTE batteries to get up somewhere near the 1000ah at 48v battery bank. And by 48 i should have got the PLANTE battery build about correct.
You will also find very negative comments from the commercial boys who quote their specs etc and how wonderful there products are and folk who know all the tech numbers etc.
Me i will plod along and publish here and other forums and be dammed.
I have in the past and about to again, upset certain manufacturers and organizations and some have Courts papers against me to not talk about their rubbish concepts and products.
I am also on other forums as i have been banned for saying what I am doing.
Fortunately, this forum has no connection to the commercial boys that put undue pressure on them.
Thanks Fieldlines.
Astro;
I think maybe you're missing the point of how & why ClockmanFRA is doing this project the way he is, which certainly neither the cheapest or lightest way.
It's not to beat the major battery builders at their own game. It's not to hurry to get the batteries formed so he can get them connected to his system.
It's to Firstly build them as close to the original build plans as possible and post that information here too (when he finds time, which is why you will not see a rapid response most of the time), this also allows the home-based DIY person to follow along and replicate what he's currently doing.
Bruce S
Astro;
I think maybe you're missing the point of how & why ClockmanFRA is doing this project the way he is, which certainly neither the cheapest or lightest way.
It's not to beat the major battery builders at their own game. It's not to hurry to get the batteries formed so he can get them connected to his system.
It's to Firstly build them as close to the original build plans as possible and post that information here too (when he finds time, which is why you will not see a rapid response most of the time), this also allows the home-based DIY person to follow along and replicate what he's currently doing.
Bruce S
I understand what he is trying to do. I also am not expecting a response at any given time. I have projects that have taken years. Heck by the time it goes from "I am going to do this" to flying is going to take all of a year just for my mill, not counting storage or anything else.
That said, I would like to understand his plate plans better for several reasons. First being having very long strips and just 3 of them, cuts way down on fab time and skills, tools and such. Second reason is I think you are going to want to put as many amps into charging this battery as you can. That is going to not play well with long strips and will make them want to warp. Personally, I would throw almost enough amps at charging them as you can without boiling or cooking the acid. I would charge by acid temp to determine amps. That tweek in the plating process will form the oxides much faster as it places maximum stress on the surface area of the plates.
Like I said I have some thoughts on the project, but only sporadic and not totally thought about, because........... it's not my project. I am building a mill. :).
'HICKORY handles MADE IN CANADA'.
Sorry folks been rather busy here.
If you could find somebody with a good Pexto or Roper Whitney slip roller than you could slowly thin out sheets to paper thin fineness with some patience. Copper could be grown 15% or so before any sign of stress cracking using cold rolling. You could go 50% with the same copper if you used added heat and a bit of patience. I imagine that lead is easier.
https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,150445.msg1061563.html#msg1061563