Fieldlines.com: The Otherpower discussion board

Quote from: Adriaan Kragten on February 27, 2024, 07:43:42 AM

The new chapter 7 now describes a 32-pole generator using the housing and winding of 4-pole asynchronous motor frame size 132M.

Adriaan;
132M !? maybe a mistype of AI auto-correct . My best guess is it was meant to be 132mm.
I could be wrong

Very nice update to the chapter otherwise!! I can easily see how the staggered magnets will help with the lowered cogging

Cheers
Bruce S

Frame size 132 means that the distance from the heart of the shaft to the bottom of a foot B3 is 132 mm. For most European frame sizes, motors of a certain frame size are availble as small (S), medium (M) and large (L). The stator stamping has the same shape and the same inside diameter but a different lenght. So a motor frame size 132M has a medium length of the stator stamping. This length is 170 mm for the chosen motor.

I'm trying to wrap my head around your thoughts, JW.  Are you striving for better english speakers?  Because when it comes to actual trial and error projects, that is what drove this place 15 years ago.  Your coloring of brandnewb's work as something less is confusing because he has been breaking the project into separate subjects for the purpose of tackling individual issues.  I have not seen any of his work to be simple or undisciplined.  He is testing using scientific methods.  That was how the site has worked all along.

I think JW would like it to be condensed into the user diary section where it would be easier to follow instead of a ton of separate posts...

Report KD 718 has been reviewed again. The old chapter 7 became chapter 6. The new chapter 7 now describes a 32-pole generator using the housing and winding of 4-pole asynchronous motor frame size 132M.

I'm trying to wrap my head around your thoughts, JW.  Are you striving for better english speakers?  Because when it comes to actual trial and error projects, that is what drove this place 15 years ago.  Your coloring of brandnewb's work as something less is confusing because he has been breaking the project into separate subjects for the purpose of tackling individual issues.  I have not seen any of his work to be simple or undisciplined.  He is testing using scientific methods.  That was how the site has worked all along.

When I visit my focus is on recent posts.  I've watched most of the posts form from the first days, sure, but recent posts are new information.  Your posts are there.  Not sure anybody really digs through old posts except to revisit memorable ideas.

I so am hoping that this is just all a misunderstanding of the greatest kind.

Look buddy this isn't Mary Poppins land.

I own the forum and have been building it piece by piece for over 22 years. Im not going to get into what type of user you are. The thing about the iron filings on paper it appears you never read that. You need to find another forum to patronize yourself. so far you have ignored intelligent conversation.

Im going to ban you from posting for 30 days. The other Admins can reverse my decision with no prejudice...

JW

Right now me and TechAdmin are working on some technical issues that are very important. I takes alot to keep this place running, we had a massive complete outage for two weeks not long ago. Although we were lucky the database is in good health so for the next week im putting in 30hrs with our current host, they changed something its not good.

yes indeed, and my stance is that stacking coils will be beneficial as opposed to transitionally spaced coils.

So either in this great database is examples on why to or why NOT to.

But since the search feature has been lacking behind of the users intend I can never know for sure. So then I feel like it is my duty to just keep going to see if this all has any merit.

If my thread is taken out of public notice it feels like what is it we are trying to cover up

Look gang I realize that I am realty sounding ill tempered at the moment. And that is because that is how I feel at the moment.

I so am hoping that this is just all a misunderstanding of the greatest kind.

OK JW so it was you.

Sure you can do what ever it is you want. It is your prerogative and you have deserved that!

But one strong mind against another.
You are hurting my cause. and to a smaller extend that of the greater good.

Let me challenge you then in a good way.

I think I can overrule/or at least confirm by now like 70% of statements that are made by people that have already garnered your trust.

I think it would be only fair if we would as a community see how my ideas are either sound or flawed. And then when sound focus on how we can get a setup ready that can demonstrate/debunk said ideas.

You see JW? Our interests are actually aligned. It is just that I made a false start here and you can't seem to let go of that.

I am here to serve the interest of humanity JW. I would really love for your support on that.

And although you have gotten every right without the need for any explanation. I think you should reconsider your decision.

There hundreds of years total of experience on this forum... we have seen it all... physics has limits and rules...

Hi branubie,

This is a privately owned site, we can do anything at anytime. I was going to do this earlier but the content of your posts are diary's. When other users try to engage you it gos over your head and you keep doing your dictations. when you are on the open forum your making content that does not fit. And are crowding the open forum. ALL the other users have proven themselves. You have not. when you post on the open forum we expect you to not do what your doing and crowding the main page. Sorry.

JW

I have watched the video of Topspeed. It is a nice explanation of how such a windmill works. However, there is one substantial mistake. It is said that the vane is in parallel to the wind if the rotor turns out op the wind but this isn't correct. As the rotor has a certain eccentricity e and as the rotor has a certain thrust Ft, the rotor moment Mr = Ft * e. This rotor moment must be in balance with the vane moment Mv around the tower axis. The vane moment is the product of the force on the vane blade Fv and the vane radius rv at the aeodynamic centre of the vane blade. So Mv = Fv * rv. Fv is about linear to the angle of attack alfa in between the vane blade and the wind direction. You only get a certain Fv if the vane blade makes a certain angle alfa with the wind direction. So the vane blade is never in parallel to the wind direction for stationairy conditions. The angle alfa depends on the vane geometry and the wind speed. The higher the wind speed, the smaller the angle. The vane moment due to the aerodynamic force on the vane blade around the vane axis must also be in balance with the spring moment Ms around the vane axis.

This safety system is called the ecliptic safety system and more information about it is given in my public report KD 409. I have used a torsion spring around the vane axis because the spring moment of a torsion spring increases only a little for an increasing angle of rotation around the vane axis. The moment of a tension spring varies a lot because the distance of the heart of the spring and the heart of the vane axis is very dependent of the angle of rotation of the vane arm. I have chosen that the tower axis coincides with the vane axis because this simplifies the moment equations a lot.

Yes thanks Adriaan...it will be slightly at an angle...the tail vane. It cannot produce a force needed without it being slightly...like an aeroplane rudder... forced to right...if looked at against wind direction.

It's Ok JW,

I actually kind of like it how you are able to give a new spin to my avatar name from time to time. It signals me that you no longer believe I am an actual newb.

But please do trust that I have no credentials what so ever in this field yet.

Yet rest assured I will have once all is said and done.

Anyway I tried uploading the stacked coils image again for context but this "the path can not be empty" error is still preventing me from doing that

Given I make no secret of also posting elsewhere shall I just share a link to there? But it feels rather disrespectful to divert traffic from this great community to another. So that is why I have not done that yet.

test post

Yes, although I suspect it is focused on more mainstream, net metering, and PV w/battery back-up systems.  It's doubtful that someone would step in and work these one-off off-grid systems.... although Neilho and I have worked on a few come to think of it.

I can surely relate to being the "only repair man".  Lately we've been having some discussions about how we might plan for the times ahead where I can't do, or remember  , how to do this stuff.  An electrician would; step one: tear it out all out, right.

Regarding your usage, 8,000 kWh is pretty much in line with our average residential member/consumer.  There are no free lunches.  While we survive comfortably on probably half that amount, we also consume some 700+ gallons of LPG annually.  I bet on a levelized MMBtu perspective we're on par (I assume here that you are not heating electrically).

I follow the complexity of adding *net metering for you.  I probably wouldn't do it as a retrofit either.  More likely I would continue, as I think you have, with some more modest isolated tasks for the turbine.  What the Classic might better allow, is the option of fetching some sort of "opportunity" load diversion.  In our case we preheat DHW using a feature called "Waste-Not".  I think you may be familiar, but this allows you to prioritize battery charging, but then divert excess power relative to a charging threshold (bulk, float or equalize).

This said, I find the objectives are interestingly different with net metering, then with off-grid; and particularly with wind.  With traditional net metering (PV) we want to maximize our output, sending as much unused credit to the utility for banking (the 'battery' of net metering if you will).  The banked excess being monetized and used to reduce costs in less sunny times.  For off-grid, and with wind maintenance in mind, we want to fill the batteries and serve our coincident needs, but then shut down to save wear and tear.

*Here in VT net metering has gotten quite (unnecessarily IMO) complicated.  It started with a simple approach, allowing the billing meter to run backwards.  Now, there are two meters for most systems, and there are REC and siting adjusters to the production.  There are also set up fees and "non-bypassible" charges (monthly and efficiency utility) that must be paid in all cases.

While were at it lets do those upgrades you were talking about. PM me if there is any sensitive info to this.

Host issue, more than likely updated PHP version without telling us and broke several things (there's more which I won't explain here). @JW please go to cPanel and change PHP version to PHP 7.4, it's most likely set to 8+ as of now.

I think that breakfast among my herd of four inverters would be OK.  Probably no louder than the fridge, but again, I've not sat with them at the right/wrong times!

Rgds

Damon

more than you asked for.

Sure, every system that evolves long enough develops prehensile things like gall bladders and wisdom teeth.

I was pretty sure you operated off-grid, but wondered if there was occasional support from an existing supply.

Thanks for the extra detail.

My house is already on grid, so I'm looking at an existing pump, stove, heating and other things that pull many thousands of kW each.  And it's trivially easy to turn them all on at the same time.  Replacing them all would be very invasive surgery.  While I could save energy that way, I also expect such changes would not increase the value of the house, nor have anything but a negative effect on reliability or ease of repair.  For all of the modifications I've already done, I'm the only repair man.  I've whittled our consumption down to less than 8000 kWhr per year.  Probably terrible to an off-gridder like you.

These considerations make choosing a grid-tie inverter pretty complicated.

I have not sat next to them at peak generation

Imagine sitting next to them while eating breakfast.  That's basically where I'd put such an inverter, unless I remodel the kitchen too.

Nope.  We're off-grid.

I didn't show our PV (3.2 kW) system or any of the end-use side of things in the above diagram.  We have the two Classics for the turbine, and we have an older Outback MX60 that contributes the solar to the same battery bank.  For AC loads we have just an Outback VFX 3648 (48VDC, 3.6 kW, 120VAC), and our Onan (4.5 kW) for back-up.  I'd always thought that we'd add a second OB for 240VAC, but it just never seemed necessary, or worth the effort.

I suspect a connection to the grid would just be a limitation of the inverter used.

Here's where our system is a little weird -

We started with a very modest 12VDC system (circa 1985).  When we transitioned 48V we kept much of the existing 12V lighting.  I added a 60A, 12VDC breaker panel (Square D breakers are rated to 24VDC).  So, we have a 12V tap with a Solar Converter equalizer.

Our water system is a 24V Sunpump submersible to a cistern, then a 48V vintage F E Myers piston pump for pressurization.

We also have two small step-down converters: one 48/12VDC for the fridge, and one 48/24V that supplies our freezer and submersible.

I'm by no means suggesting anyone else should adopt this approach.  As I think you know though, things evolve differently over time than they might otherwise if one started from scratch with all future objectives known, or better predicted, and without the financial and resource constraints most of us start out with -

Sorry, more than you asked for.  Let me know if you have any questions about the Classic's.  I'd say they have worked well for us.

Best, ~ks

A uniform pattern would be good.  Do you have something to use as a template?

May start with minor holes centerline.  But one vertically in the middle.  If any air is stagant anywhere, its going to be there.  Air will work itself from center to path of least total resistance.

How big of holes are you thinking?  Air going through holes can generate noise.  I was thinking around 10 mm could be quite noisy at a high pitch once air gets to above 30 mph.  Storm sirens use 25mm-ish or better holes and spin to generate air velocity above 100 mph, so you shouldn't ever hit that.  One line vertically down the center then new lines of holes offset 60 degree angles to one another.  Don't need to do the entire cup.  Three rows is pretty significant leakage.  Too much air leakage would not be the goal, so do not get too crazy with them.  If you do over due it you can simply add a liner (duct tape to the rescue) to the leading edge of the cup to patch over them.  The sides of your cup will direct the air to these holes.

Oops, saw the second idea.  I like your second idea better.  Cutting holes or lines are the options.  The holes are fast to cut one but could be significant time doing rows.  But horizontal cuts with a table saw or circular saw should be faster.

ugg!!

I made the mistake to just keep winding before I checked if the shape actually fits the template or not ;(

30 winds at 1mm diam. each coil times 6 of them stacked

But at least this tells me we have got an incredible amount of space left to either compress the coils more narrow or fill it up with a heat dissipation agent like this CU 150um iron powder (I think the CU means non electro conductive due to some coating the particles have gotten)

I am waiting for more steel, to serve as back plating, to arrive as my results without it seem to be subpar

I have now relatively old Sunny Boys (1100s and a 1200) more than a decade old, in my loft.

I have not sat next to them at peak generation but I can't say that I've noticed any significant noise from them at all.

Rgds

Damon