Author Topic: Measuring a Converter Inductor  (Read 2478 times)

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SamoaPower

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Measuring a Converter Inductor
« on: November 04, 2006, 09:05:13 PM »
I want to build a three-phase boost converter a la Flux and for the current levels I anticipate, the inductors are important components.


I initially considered air core types since physical size was not an issue, but Flux convinced me that ferrite cores were a better way to go. I'm still concerned about about core losses and saturation issues at high current levels.


Unfortunately, I didn't have any suitable cores for low frequencies (plenty for high freqs) so was looking to purchase. Then, a stroke of luck came my way. A friend just happened to have six new, identical flyback transformers for CRT monitors and he let me have them at the right price - free.


These use a double C type core that measure 67 x 40 x 15 mm with a 44 x 15 mm winding window when assembled. The winding legs are round and 15 mm in diameter. These use two phenolic spacers between the halves to set the gaps. They measure only about 0.2 mm thick. I'm assuming that the two gaps add in effectiveness but this may be a wrong assumption. In any case, it seems a pretty small gap compared to what Flux was talking about. I don't have a clue as to what the ferrite mix is.


Since I now have six core sets and need three inductors, I decided to stack two cores for greater power handling. Since these will have to handle the full machine output current (up to 150 Amps battery current), I needed to use the maximum wire size consistent with needed inductance. I wound a test coil of 16 turns of four-in-hand #14 square wire which is equivalent to about #7 round. I know Litz wire would be better but this is what I have. This pretty much filled the winding window and was a bear to wind.


I measured the inductance by using a known 5% capacitor in series and finding the series resonant frequency with a signal generator and scope. Based on the capacitor Xc, this computed to 262 uH at about 100 kHz, which is the lowest my signal generator will go. This inductance is in the ballpark for a reasonable boost ratio. Using the known current voltage drop method, I measured the DCR (Direct Current Resistance) as 3.98 milliohms.


Now, to what I DON'T know. To get a handle on core losses, one needs to know the ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance). Without a network analyzer, I don't know how to measure this. Of course, even if I knew, there's not much I can do about it.


The other issue is saturation current. This is something I could adjust by changing the gaps with the compromise of decreased inductance and boost ratio with larger gaps. It seems that one needs to find the knee point where inductance rapidly decreases with increasing current. Since these will be operating with two widely different frequency components, the PWM and the alternator line frequency, it seems a sticky problem. Anyone with ideas?

« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 09:05:13 PM by (unknown) »

scottsAI

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Re: Measuring a Converter Inductor
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2006, 03:18:53 PM »
Hello SamoaPower,


L changes with i (bias current) B-H plots.

Core loss are based on i and frequency. So until you try it you can't predict it.


Only way I know of is to put a current and look at the slop of the current vs time.

If your target is 150 amps then you will need a supply that can supply 150 amps!

Voltage will need to over come the R of the coil. 150 * 0.00398 = 0.6v.

The prediction of the saturation current depends on so much on the materials and construction and air gap.


A 12v battery can supply the 150 amps, so a supply is close at hand.

Doing the test, need to measure the current fast on the scope. Need wide bandwidth opamp

Using a variable PWM to drive the FET gate, can watch the current and stop it after saturation.

Knowing the inductor is 262uH, you can predict the i vs time plot to know the pulse widths needed to hit the 150 amps. Of course start with smaller pulse widths!


Hope this helps.

Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 03:18:53 PM by scottsAI »

willib

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Re: Measuring a Converter Inductor
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2006, 05:59:50 PM »
are you planning on rectifing the output from the gen first?

or is this a three phase boost converter with syncronous rectification?

which would be cool
« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 05:59:50 PM by willib »
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SamoaPower

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Re: Measuring a Converter Inductor
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2006, 08:24:51 PM »


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/10/1/172854/661


Except I'll replace the diodes with FETs for synchronous rectification.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 08:24:51 PM by SamoaPower »

SamoaPower

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Re: Measuring a Converter Inductor
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2006, 09:08:20 PM »
Thanks Scott,

This essentially means building the converter first to test the inductor. I had hoped to do it the other way around because if this inductor proves unsuitable, it's likely that another would be different physically which may mean a different layout.


I should have clarified the current requirements. The alternator will be limited by other means to 150 Amps into the battery. Being a three-phase confiuration (three converters) the line current through each inductor would be about 86 Amps at full chat. However, not all of this current will be switched by PWM. I suspect that perhaps 20 Amps per inductor will be switched until the alternator voltage is high enough to charge directly. Boost PWM would be turned off during the portion of the input cycle that exceeds battery volts, however, the FETs would still be turned on during these periods for synchronous rectification. This is a little different than what Flux had in mind.


The inductors still require low DCR to handle the full line current but saturation won't be an issue at this current level unless recovery time is long (doubtful).

« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 09:08:20 PM by SamoaPower »

willib

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Re: Measuring a Converter Inductor
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2006, 10:22:29 PM »
« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 10:22:29 PM by willib »
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scottsAI

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Re: Measuring a Converter Inductor
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2006, 12:47:49 AM »
SamoaPower,


Build single channel to test? Lots easier than building the whole thing.

I thought about if for quite a while before I posted, if anybody else can think of something...

If you knew the material etc, you can make some guess, since you don't then no way.


If only doing 20 amps, how much power you boosting?

Switching from Y to delta always seems easier, but I hear the transition is tough on the turbine.

Some resistors? Stepping switching?


While writing this you posted a link to Flux's booster.

So I see what your doing. I did not post on Flux's, I was very busy then.


Using the cap and 3 inductors with 3 FETs and 3 high speed rectifiers is complicated, problems.


Using a standard circuit with regular rectifiers bridge, then put a cap then the boost inductor with a pull down FET and finish with single high speed rectifier would be the most simple and EMC quiet.

When not boosting bypass the inductor and high speed rectifier with a FET switch. Inductors have problems covering a wide power range, sometimes it's good to use couple circuits in parallel.


I designed above solution for my 10kw design before I changed to an induction generator.

PMA generator's output boosted from 5mph to 12mph which is cut in. Gets rid of may problems with PMA, but not enough for me.

Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: November 05, 2006, 12:47:49 AM by scottsAI »

Flux

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Re: Measuring a Converter Inductor
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2006, 01:29:14 AM »
I am not sure what effect your proposed sync rectification will have. I am fairly sure that inductor with a thicker shim would work perfectly well in my circuits.


In my versions it doesn't really matter what happens to the cores after the thing comes above boost. Saturation when carrying the low frequency ac would have no effect.


I am not sure how you are going to control the gate pulses in the boost mode, you seem to be thinking of doing a hybrid between my idea and a 3 phase dc boost, you are on your own with that. Above boost I assume you are going to use a 6 mosfet bridge as a synchronous rectifier, that should be ok and inductor saturation from then on will not matter.


In your boost mode I think you will need a pretty complicated gate drive mode.

Flux

« Last Edit: November 05, 2006, 01:29:14 AM by Flux »

SamoaPower

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Re: Measuring a Converter Inductor
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2006, 02:41:17 AM »
Good morning Flux,

I thought I might hear from you.


In looking at your circuit, I thought there may be an issue with the switching of the FETS when they're operating as rectifiers when above boost. Of course, you didn't detail your gate drive circuitry so there may be something there I'm not aware of.


As you transition out of boost mode, the PWM duty cycle will be quite low because of a low boost ratio. If this is maintained as input increases, enhancement of the FETs to bypass the body diodes only occurs for a small time percentage of the input waveform, decreasing their efficiency as a rectifier. What I want to try is turning on the FETs continuously during that portion of the input waveform that's above battery volts. Yes, it will require additional drive gating to achieve it.


No, I don't intend to use a separate sync. rectifier for above boost. Replacing the positive side diodes in your circuit with FETs and along with the low side FETs will do it all.


I really didn't intend to get into a discussion on all of this at this stage of the game. Obviously, development work needs to be done. What I am presently looking for is a way to measure inductor saturation current before deciding on an inductor.


Thanks for the input.

« Last Edit: November 05, 2006, 02:41:17 AM by SamoaPower »

Nando

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Re: Measuring a Converter Inductor
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2006, 08:57:00 AM »
SamoaPower:


One needs to think, how the core operates with energy.


You have a core with certain number of turns that gives an inductance value.


The saturation point depends on the current flowing through the winding, so since current is a needed parameter then the applied voltage is the parameter that will generate a current in the winding "loop".


You need a scope, then a way to produce the voltage, in this case a GRID voltage that should be variable and a current detector, ( a resistor, that for some is a shunt"


The Hanna curve is what you are trying to get.


Feed the voltage to the vertical of the scope and the current to the horizontal of the scope.


Gain settings may allow to center the curve on the scope face.


Do I need to supply more information for You to accomplish the core testing ?.


Nando

« Last Edit: November 07, 2006, 08:57:00 AM by Nando »

Nando

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Re: Measuring a Converter Inductor
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2006, 11:00:24 AM »
SamoaPower:


I meant to say Magnetic Hysteresis Loop and not Hanna


Send to me your email address to send You an article how to build a Hysteresis Magnetic Loop tracing.


Still You will need a Scope


the idea I presented needs another additional winding to read the output voltage and a limiting power resistor -- though the second winding may be not needed but an integrating circuit is needed for proper curve display.


Too many years ago the last time I played with Magnetic loops.


Nando

« Last Edit: November 07, 2006, 11:00:24 AM by Nando »