Author Topic: composite rotors?  (Read 3711 times)

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RogerAS

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composite rotors?
« on: February 14, 2009, 04:23:44 PM »
Hey all,


I searched the board, like a good little boy, but didn't find this question arising.:-)


Why not composite rotors? It seems possible, given modern chemicals and materials, to cast a rotor with a magnetic property similar to iron, yet be much lighter and by far stronger. Could a honeycomb structure, like used in some other composite cast structures, but with mild induction silicone steel, like used in electric motors, provide the proper flux paths to work? Imagine a sandwich of very thin steel folded into tiny little ripples, a layer of carbon fiber with magnetic binder, a layer of thin folded steel, ect...


If not done with a honeycomb a solid casting of some sort, maybe with the magnets set before curing to lock the attractive particles into their natural positions? Steel "skins" could be used on the magnet side as a placement guide/lock and a backing skin to trap the cast and act as a final barrier to magnetic attraction.


Ceramics comes to mind but are they really strong enough to withstand the attractive forces of opposing rotor effects? The Japanese experimented with cast engine blocks that didn't need a cooling system. Clearly ceramics can be strong. If a method could be developed to maximize the return path effectiveness with more accurate, lighter and better balanced spinning parts the mechanical advantages become clear, on "paper".


Maybe a combination of methods. Cast a ceramic "core" with the magnet recesses formed and ready after baking. Lock the magnets into position with space shuttle tile glue onthat ring. :-) Build up several layers of die cut fiber on the magnets, and cap with a steel skin, also die cut, to terminate the magnet face lay-up. On the out-facing side of the ceramic ring a series of precut mats of fiber are laid up and the terminating steel skin is applied. In the binding epoxy a magnetic material is added to the mix and the entire lay-up is clamped into a jig for curing and final alignment. Post cure trim and finish with hyper protective paint.


Cost effective? I doubt it. I also doubt any of us could immediately see a pile of bucks show up in a UPS truck as result of this "idea". There are very few members here that could even attempt to tinker with such a notion. I ain't one of 'em! In the end auch thinking is often required to inspire others to think somewhere outside the box, but to so far as to need a crate to get where I was already headed.


It just seems to me that the lighter the rotational mass of the generator, without a reduction in strength, with possible gains from use of exotic metals in the casting chemistry, works out to all good results. The life of the shaft bearings and the responsiveness to the wind in actually generating electricity instead of accelerating mass also seems like a good trade off. In a mass production setting the rotors could be cast matched where very little "jacking" would be needed to allow the opposing rotors to remain true to each other.


Ideas?

« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 04:23:44 PM by (unknown) »

tecker

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Re: composite rotors?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2009, 10:18:52 AM »
I've messed around with ferrite blacksaand fillings BBs ball bearings and magnetite . and the amount of flux is noticeable stronger with steel and better even still with  (painted steel layers) I got a very good thanster from to magnet with copper coated tig wire ( medium ) very strong magnetic transfer and can be wound in a flat coil and when potted is very strond and hard to cut sound like a steel plat when dropped .So that would work well . I have a picture of a single rotor stator on my mem card I'll post it .
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 10:18:52 AM by tecker »

tecker

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Re: composite rotors?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2009, 10:37:15 AM »
 Here it is part of a dual stator single rotor (unfinished imagine that I 'll blame it on the cold )



« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 10:37:15 AM by tecker »

bob golding

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Re: composite rotors?
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2009, 11:03:44 AM »
i am sure it would work,if you have NASA,s budget and you wanted it to fly. otherwise making the blades longer would be the best option. I don't know if anyone has worked out the losses from accelerating the mass of the rotor,but I bet it isn't a lot compared with the gain in performance from having the blades as long as possible.


cheers

bob golding

« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 11:03:44 AM by bob golding »
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

dbcollen

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Re: composite rotors?
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2009, 09:54:32 PM »
What you are really trying to reduce is Mass Moment of Inertia, lightening a few grams at the tips of your blades will be the same as lightening your rotors by many ounces. Also almost everything you lose in output overcoming the inertia of the heavy rotors is regained when the wind drops and the heavy rotors act as flywheels. The heavy rotors only have effect in changing wind conditions, and if you are in that turbulent a wind area, your money would be much better spent in solar panels than trying to squeeze a few extra watt seconds by using expensive composites on your rotors. The terms "overthinking the plumbing" and " mental masturbation" comes to mind when I read ideas like this.


Dustin

« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 09:54:32 PM by dbcollen »

ghurd

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Re: composite rotors?
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2009, 10:00:48 PM »
Is that a CU lamination behind the coils?  If so, why?

G-
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 10:00:48 PM by ghurd »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

tecker

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Re: composite rotors?
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2009, 02:15:09 AM »
That's copper coated welding wire (medium) .Magneticily it would be the same as painted wire two to there layers wound in a coil and pressed with polyurethane paint on om thin steel . Bedni uses copper coated welding rods for core . I think this would be a good DIY lam .
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 02:15:09 AM by tecker »

Flux

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Re: composite rotors?
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2009, 06:50:55 AM »
I agree absolutely. This inertia nonsense seems to have caught on with lots of people.

I don't think it makes any difference once you get up to cut in. With high inertia you may need a bit more wind to get started but the axial machines are running in winds too low to produce anything so that is not an issue. Wincharger sold their air brake on the benefits of its flywheel effect and Marlec claim the high inertia of their machine to be a virtue. In reality I don't think it is a help or an hindrance. The only possible reason to do something would be to reduce the weight you have to lift up on the tower and nobody seems worried about that.


Iron is the best material for magnetic circuits.If you must reduce weight for some reason then use an annular iron ring in the something else that you want to use for the rest of the construction. No magnetic goo in a composite structure will not come close to a lump of iron.


Flux

« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 06:50:55 AM by Flux »

TomW

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Re: composite rotors?
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2009, 07:06:19 AM »
Fux;




This inertia nonsense seems to have caught on with lots of people.

I don't think it makes any difference once you get up to cut in. With high inertia you may need a bit more wind to get started but the axial machines are running in winds too low to produce anything so that is not an issue.


I think it is an easily missed point that these air core machines rotate almost in any breeze. They may not hit cut in but they are already going well before there is wind to produce power. I see this all the time on my current 8 footer, it is happily cruising along below cut in just waiting for that nudge from higher winds. It is mounted on what DanB called the 20th one put together from Volvo rotors and bearings. It doesn't take much to kick it around.


Certainly nothing wrong with trying something different, either.


Just my observation of one dual rotor air core machine over a few years.


Do not mistake me for a builder, I just fly it.


Tom

« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 07:06:19 AM by TomW »

RogerAS

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Re: composite rotors?
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2009, 09:07:21 AM »
All,


My reinvention of the wheel is what some people refer to as a mental exercise. A great deal of the intent was to open lines of thinking in others. More intelligent members might only need such a spark to allow a step forward in our understanding and application of technology. Some members have apparently never been exposed to such a situation. If you choose to label such with degrading and condescending remarks it influences me to regard such input as absolutely worthless, and is indicative of a major flaw in the construct of a personality making such remarks.


I am about .005" away from abandoning this forum just because of such statements as we have seen here. Were it not for the contributions of other members such as Tom W I would be long since left this forum to stew in its own sour juices. It is almost as if there is some new club of know-everything members and those attempting to display an unwillingness to kiss those posters backside are treated with such disrespect as we see here. I've never been very good at being a brown nose, and I do not expect to become better at this as a result of what happens here.


When mental abstractions and are treated with such disrespect the motivation to return that level of respect rises in a directly proportional rate. It's the "up yours" law of cause and effect, which some posters may not feel has any influence whatsoever on them.

_____


Dustin,


Sorry to have wasted your precious time in posting my "mental masturbation". I do not recall forcing you, or inviting you, to read or comment as this was in my diary entry. Nor do I recall your advice and words of wisdom gracing this board when I first became a member here, nearly 10 years ago.


Flux,


While I usually hold a great deal of respect for most of your opinions, you have been proven well wrong before and your snide comments regarding "toy Stirling engines" immediately springs to mind. Do I need to cite exact thread and posting to make my point for all to see? I doubt even such public humiliation would have a positive effect.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 09:07:21 AM by RogerAS »

dbcollen

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Re: composite rotors?
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2009, 09:29:03 AM »
Roger,


I will not rise to this, other than to say if you do a search of the board before posting, you would see this composite rotor nonsense and weight "issues" have been discussed many times before.


Dustin

« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 09:29:03 AM by dbcollen »

electrondady1

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Re: composite rotors?
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2009, 10:35:42 AM »
it is in the nature of some humans to postulate and  experiment.

   the design of these wind driven alternators will evolve.

 in spite of those who are so committed to the status quo.


for example

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/11/15/113513/28

« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 10:35:42 AM by electrondady1 »

tecker

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Re: composite rotors?
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2009, 11:02:27 AM »
 A heavy rotor and or blade set makes more power than a light one there' no doubt .Composite materials are the way to go or maybe the most hightech contractors are just out of touch .
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 11:02:27 AM by tecker »

tecker

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Re: composite rotors?
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2009, 11:18:21 AM »
I know yoou think and play with your tools hence the Quotes
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 11:18:21 AM by tecker »

BigBreaker

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Re: composite rotors?
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2009, 10:11:26 AM »
The intention is appreciated, but you may find an unwelcome reception for unresearched, "pie in the sky" type questions or speculations.


In several minutes of googling, mostly on wikipedia, I found a number of materials that would fit your criteria - though none of them are exactly magnetic composites in the sense that carbon fiber-epoxy is a composite.


Mu-metal and less exotically permalloy are advanced materials that can carry large flux densities.  Here is a comprehensive list, including steel:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeability_(electromagnetism)


I'd also highlight Halbach arrays as a way of channeling magnetic flux between rotors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halbach_array


Folks here are "show me" types.  Do an experiment that is promising and you will find tons of support.


Also, as far as using carbon fiber to make the rotors rigid...  it really isn't needed.  Mild steel sufficient to channel a rotor's magnetic flux is really strong - strong enough to carry the structural loads, and while heavy... that doesn't matter much.  The weight in steel is small compared to the wind force on the blades at power.  Any structural components that can't take the weight of a heavy rotor would surely fail from the wind force. Mild steel doesn't fatigue like carbon fiber or aluminum.  It is easy to find, and relatively cheap.  It has a very high Curie temperature, can be made sufficiently corrosion resistant and generally ain't broke, if you know what I mean.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 10:11:26 AM by BigBreaker »