Author Topic: The core of the matter  (Read 5286 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Magnanomous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
The core of the matter
« on: August 06, 2009, 07:27:34 PM »
Hi all!! I'm sure that this has been asked before several times, however I'm hoping that someone can either briefly answer these or point me in the direction where I can find the answer.


Firstly, I have a question regarding voltage and amp output difference between using a coil using an iron core or an air coil... putting aside the cogging issue, if the coils are the same wire gauge, turns and dimensions other than one has a core and the other is air... which one will produce more power?


Secondly, If I have 3 windmills producing 48 volts each, can I connect them all in parallel then rectify or would there need to be a special wiring plan involved?


Thirdly, I'm considering making 9 coil stators using a 1" sandwich construction with 0.25" aluminum on the outside, 0.5" aluminum spacers inside and the coils properly placed inside the cavity. Cutouts will be made to expose most of the coil except the top and bottom parts not in the path of the magnets to keep them secure in the sandwich. The idea is to use the whole stator as a big heatsink to help dissipate heat. The question is... magnetically or electrically, would there be a negative interaction by using the non-magnetic aluminum or a decrease power generation compared to using a resin core?


Any info would be greatly appreciated, Thanks!


 

« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 07:27:34 PM by (unknown) »

Airstream

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 245
Re: The core of the matter
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2009, 01:35:10 PM »
Thirdly???  STOP.


Take a couple of nickles and dimes and place them on a sheet of aluminum, then slide around by swirling the sheet metal around like you were 'gold panning'  -  now  place a couple of neo magnets and repeat...


See & feel the interference to the magnets easy sliding?  You'd be suffering large amounts of energy loss trying to 'sandwich' any thing in ANY metal even if non-magnetic if its in the path of traveling magnetic flux...


Try lexan or a fiberglass flat sheet instead.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 01:35:10 PM by Airstream »

Magnanomous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: The core of the matter
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2009, 02:30:53 PM »
Thanks Airstream... I appreciate your material suggestions. I was wondering why I hadn't seen or heard of this configuration before... now I know why. You've saved me about $150 by not using aluminum.


Any idea regarding the other questions I had? Thanks!

« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 02:30:53 PM by Magnanomous »

TomW

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 5130
  • Country: us
Re: The core of the matter
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2009, 03:14:19 PM »
We try to limit questions to one or two per post. Otherwise it gets confusing.


Actually, at least 2 of these questions are fairly common and regularly pop up. Why we encourage a search before posting questions.


Tom

« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 03:14:19 PM by TomW »

ghurd

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 8059
Re: The core of the matter
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2009, 05:40:22 AM »
"Secondly"

Rectify each alternator.  Then parallel the rectifier outputs.

G-
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 05:40:22 AM by ghurd »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

Magnanomous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: The core of the matter
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2009, 11:18:11 AM »
Thank you Ghurd... I appreciate your response. So if I understand correctly, if all three 48 volt alternators are connected in parallel, the voltage remains at 48 however the current increases to the combined amount? Sorry, I really am green at this but I'm sick of paying ridiculous power bills and would like to find an alternative.


After a few hours of poking around the forums, I did find one item in regards to my 1st question that speculated that more output is generated from coils with iron cores because the entire winding is exposed to the passing magnet's induction compared to air core coils where just the part of the winding in the path of the magnet is induced... does this sound reasonable?


Now that I'm aware of it, I'll keep it to one question per post from now on. Thanks!

« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 11:18:11 AM by Magnanomous »

tanner0441

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1108
  • Country: wales
Re: The core of the matter
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2009, 11:52:36 AM »
Hi


If you want to connect more than one alternator in parallel to increase the current. Do it after the diodes, not at the alternators..


Brian

« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 11:52:36 AM by tanner0441 »

Magnanomous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: The core of the matter
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2009, 12:14:13 PM »
Thanks Brian... understood, so I need to rectify each alternator first then connect in parallel.


Cheers!

« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 12:14:13 PM by Magnanomous »

ghurd

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 8059
Re: The core of the matter
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2009, 12:46:09 PM »
This will get confusing.

Introducing iron into the cores creates iron losses.

Iron losses are power losses, meaning the losses are power.

The alternator can make more power with iron in the core, however the losses are higher.

The output plus the losses = the input.

If you can afford the iron losses, fine.

If it is a small windmill, the iron losses will ruin the low wind output.


Avoid iron in a dual rotor windmill.

If it would help enough to be worth the effort, Hugh would have put it in his 4' windmill.


Motor conversions have the iron as a necessary evil.


Look through Jerry's posts.  He did some testing.

G-

« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 12:46:09 PM by ghurd »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

Magnanomous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: The core of the matter
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2009, 01:36:25 PM »
Thanks again Ghurd... I agree with you 100% that using air core coils for windmills is the way to go and intend to build 2 windmills (hopefully!)with axial flux air core alternators. I have and old 10 HP engine that I had converted to natural gas many years ago which hasn't been used in a while and was contemplating using it to drive an alternator designed with iron coil core coils... if that's the way to go of course. My reasoning is that if I have the horse power to do it I may as well generate as much power as I can with that horse power. Thanks for the tip to check out Jerry's posts... I'll browse around tonight for the info.


Cheers!

« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 01:36:25 PM by Magnanomous »

ghurd

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 8059
Re: The core of the matter
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2009, 02:17:33 PM »
I believe you will be mostly on your own with iron in the cores.


If you just want more output, build a bigger alternator!


Even if you use standard plans, a stronger grade neo, and larger wire with a couple fewer turns,

At least you will be able to get someone to make a guess.  There is some posted info about 'upgrading' most standard PMA plans.


I don't think I would add the iron simply because of the labor vs gain.

G-

« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 02:17:33 PM by ghurd »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

Magnanomous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: The core of the matter
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2009, 03:10:34 PM »
That's true... I could simply build a bigger alternator. Just out of curiosity, I'll look over Jerry's post.... the more I know, the better!


Thanks for your input Ghurd!

« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 03:10:34 PM by Magnanomous »

frepdx

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 100
Re: The core of the matter
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2009, 01:43:03 PM »
Firstly, I have a question regarding voltage and amp output difference between using a coil using an iron core or an air coil... putting aside the cogging issue, if the coils are the same wire gauge, turns and dimensions other than one has a core and the other is air... which one will produce more power?


Air core PMG's are designed differently than iron core PMG's. In general, a 'soft magnetic core' will allow a PMG to be smaller, have a different mechanical arrangement and use less permanent magnetic material. However, a well designed and constructed air core machine eliminates core losses and can be very efficient.


When you say 'iron core' you need to be careful. Using an Iron core is very inefficient - you get huge losses from eddy currents. Most 'soft magnetic cores' are laminated silicon steel. The laminations and silicon content reduce the losses, and the alloy is designed to have high magnetic permeability and a high saturation point. There are many different types of core material; some need exotic annealing procedures to be effective and some are so delicate they need to be re-annealed after stamping.


You can make a soft magnetic core with iron powder and resin that reduces losses over pure iron, but its permeability and a saturation point won't be anywhere near a laminated core using electrical steel alloy. The material availability and manufacturing procedures for a laminated core are out of the reach of most home shops.


One alternative that may be within the capability of a home shop is Somaloy like materials - powered metals with high tech coatings. They can be pressed and sintered and make decent cores. you'd need some tooling, a press and a small kiln with good temperature control.


If I went through the effort of making a good magnetic core I'd probably use it to full advantage; to allow a single coil design, possibly a transverse flux or clawpole machine, with good cooling airflow as part of the design.


After a few hours of poking around the forums, I did find one item in regards to my 1st question that speculated that more output is generated from coils with iron cores because the entire winding is exposed to the passing magnet's induction compared to air core coils where just the part of the winding in the path of the magnet is induced... does this sound reasonable?


Yes, your output will rise with an iron core. So you could potentially use fewer turns. But then your stator will get hotter due to the core losses, your blade loading will increase and you'll get cogging and a new set of wicked mechanical vibrations that a cast resin core wasn't designed for. So it's a different design. Don't expect to modify a proven air core design in this way and have be trouble free. You'd need to do some R&D.

« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 01:43:03 PM by frepdx »

Magnanomous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: The core of the matter
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2009, 02:33:32 PM »
Thanks for your very informative reply frepdx!


My reference to using an "iron core" was to determine whether there is a performance difference (pros and cons) between air core and cored coils and isn't really what I would use if I were to design an Axial Flux alternator with cored coils.


What I was thinking of doing is using laminated cores as you mentioned or using more esoteric amorphous polycrystalline metal cores that are much better in regards to hysteresis loss, eddy currents, high permeability/saturation and as a result less heat generation.... almost as good as using air core coils but with higher power output... but unfortunately, with cogging! To minimize the cogging, my idea is to use a multi-stator design to keep the magnets and cores attraction/repulsion action constantly in an "unbalanced" state (maybe I am for considering doing this!)so that the cogging is eliminated or minimal. The multi-stator would be set up to generate more power when there is an increase in wind or RPM of the blades and used somewhat as a brake at over-speed or enable higher wind velocity settings for furling.


This is a more complicated system and probably a lot more than what should or could be done DIY. If all that I'll be accomplishing is making a more complex machine that in the end still equals X = X = X compared to the excellent and simple air core designs that I've come across on this board, then it's pointless for me to build it and go for a proven axial flux design depicted here... I'm just thinking that maybe there might be a gain in the ratio of net power generated to torque resistance. Anyway, it's all great fun and an interesting topic to speculate on!


Has anyone ever tried any methods to increase the back EMF/power generated ratio for better efficiency or is this a fixed variable law that cannot be manipulated? Not looking for overunity here as this is in my logical opinion impossible to accomplish, but curious to see if there's a way to make a better mouse trap... regardless of cost or complexity.


Cheers!


 

« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 02:33:32 PM by Magnanomous »

Magnanomous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: The core of the matter
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2009, 04:37:05 PM »
Sorry... in my last paragraph I meant to say "a fixed law that cannot be manipulated" instead of fixed variable law.... I'm such an oxymoron!
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 04:37:05 PM by Magnanomous »

frepdx

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 100
Re: The core of the matter
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2009, 07:43:51 PM »
here's a neat low cogging design (if you are able to fabricate decent cores)


http://www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/fy98/24996.pdf

« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 07:43:51 PM by frepdx »

Magnanomous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: The core of the matter
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2009, 03:23:08 PM »
Hi frepdx,


Thanks for the link... I'll have a good look through it. Looks very interesting after a quick scan of the PDF.... also interesting is that they're using a toroidal coil with staggered cores. I'm curious about the Somaloy material... do you think that it would be comparable or better than using amorphous crystalline metal for the cores?


Cheers!

« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 03:23:08 PM by Magnanomous »

frepdx

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 100
Re: The core of the matter
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2009, 03:55:33 PM »
I don't know much about amorphous crystalline metal.


Somaloy isn't quite as good as silicon steel laminations for the same design. However, in some cases Somaloy can outperform laminations if the design is modified to take advantage of complex 3D molded shapes (which laminations can't).


http://www.e-driveonline.com/images/Presentations/Hoganas.pdf

http://emotors.ncku.edu.tw/motor_learn/emotor_web/share/Iron%20core.pdf


Let me know if you find any manufacturing data (pressing pressures, sintering details, etc.) I'm interested.

« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 03:55:33 PM by frepdx »

Magnanomous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: The core of the matter
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2009, 09:35:29 PM »
Thanks for the added info frepdx... the Somaloy core material looks interesting but I think Amorphous metal (Metglas) core might be slightly better. The only way to tell for sure is to get samples of each (if I can that is) and give them a try. Out of curiosity, have you or have you heard of anyone trying different wire for the cores... eg. litz, ribbon, silver plated, bifilar or trifilar wound?


Cheers!

« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 09:35:29 PM by Magnanomous »