Author Topic: 6 KW grid tied Generator  (Read 2160 times)

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Menelaos

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6 KW grid tied Generator
« on: December 17, 2009, 08:14:45 PM »
Hi there,


I'm in the stage of planning my next project, a grid tied Wind turbine with 6 m diameter and an axial flux generator.


My concern is about heat an I am not quite sure which way to go, so I hope you can help me a little with my decision.


I am planning to generate about 6 KW of power using a WIndyboy 6000 at 10 m/s.


The rotor will be build using "Crome-Profiles". It will have an TSR of 8 and be equipped with active Stall regulation.


I was planning to use 48 Magnets (80mmx40mmx20mm) N52 (24 each Rotor) and 18 coils in a delta connection. According to Femm an airgap of 40mm would give me a flux density of about 0.7 Tesla

The coils would be made using 1,32 mm wire, winding 230 turns with 2 wires on hand.

I was planning to reach 250 Volts at a wind speed of 2.5 m/s.

According to my calculations this would give me a total resistance of 1.5 Ohms which is fantastic. Not that fantastic is the Size and thus price of the generator. I suppose it would be somewhere about 1m in diameter.


At maximum power of 6000 Watts at about 580 V I would have about 200 Watts of heat emmitting into the stator.


I guess thats no problem at all :-)


To get the whole thing smaller i was thinking about using only 20 magnet poles and Star connection. I then would end up at a resistance of about 5 ohms resulting in about 700 Watts of heat in the stator.


Do you think that the resin an coils can handle that much loss resulting in heat for a long period of time?


I am not concerned about efficiancy, its just the heat problem that makes me crazy...


It would be nice to get some hints.


Max

« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 08:14:45 PM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: 6 KW grid tied Generator
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2009, 06:20:27 AM »
Perhaps the best way to look at this is to consider a battery charging set up directly connected.


Most of these machines are running below 50% efficiency at full load so a 3 kW rated alternator would be loosing more than 3kW of heat in the stator. That makes your 700W look pretty conservative.Dissipation is ultimately linked to surface area so again your 700W into a large 6kW stator will be causing much less heat than the equivalent loss into the stator of a small say 10ft machine.


My finding is that keeping alternator efficiency above 70 % usually keeps your temperature rise within reasonable limits.


I would imagine your smaller machine would be absolutely fine, the big monster machine with only 200W loss would probably be running almost cold with wind cooling.For mppt there is much to be gained by keeping alternator efficiency high but when you exceed about 80% then it starts not to be cost effective, you won't see the difference in power out and as long as it doesn't cook there is little point in spending more money.


Flux

« Last Edit: December 18, 2009, 06:20:27 AM by Flux »

Menelaos

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Re: 6 KW grid tied Generator
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2009, 03:49:11 PM »
Hi Flux,


Thanks for your advice.

For a machine as big as this one, how much space between the magnets and Stator would be adequate?

I was thinking about 5 mm on each side to be sure the magnets do not touch the stator in case of whatever...or do you thing that would be to much of beeing careful?


Do you think it would make a good idea to use smaller magnets and make more poles?

Each coil would then have more surface area compared to their volume which would help with heat dissipatin, wouldn't it?


And one more thing...

Is there an optimum for the bredth of the ciol-"legs" compared with the bredth of the magnets?

I know they should not me more than the magnets and I will make the whole in the center of the coil as big as the magnets.


There are setup ratios at which 2 magnet poles will simultaniously pass the 2 legs of the coil. Would that result in higher voltage?

With other setups there is a delay to this so that the magnets do not pass the legs synchroniusly. Does that make a difference in terms of efficiency?


So should I make the coil legs as wide as the magnet or go smaller?


Max

« Last Edit: December 18, 2009, 03:49:11 PM by Menelaos »

Flux

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Re: 6 KW grid tied Generator
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2009, 12:43:54 AM »
I don't know how much clearance you need on a large machine, much depends on your bearing set up. I manage with about 1mm on smaller machines but the last thing you want on a high voltage alternator is a rub between rotor and stator. 5mm each side is going to cost you a lot in magnet but it may be a cheaper option in the end.


Yes thinner magnets and a thinner stator with more poles will give you more surface area and almost certainly better cooling but again the large clearance gap will knock your flux density worse than with thicker magnets, it's a trade off again. I don't think you have a heat problem now but if you are worried then this will help as long as the thinner stator is mechanically strong enough.


Coil dimensions and magnet spacing is a grey area. If you think in terms of single turn coils then you are forced to the conclusion that the coil sides should be placed at the centre distance of adjacent magnets. If you think of that stupid E=Blv equation it keeps forcing you back to this conclusion but in real life you have to end up with a distributed winding, not all turns can be in the same place.


It is better to think of flux linkage and as long as turns of a coil don't stray into the reverse field under another magnet you will still gain some volts with turns way outside what seems a reasonable area.


Even making the holes smaller than the magnets doesn't prevent those turns linking flux, they just don't link all of it. There is ultimately a trade off between volts generated and added resistance to get it so it becomes near impossible without computer simulation to hit an exact compromise.


I find it better to have gaps between the magnets at least the magnet width any less is wasting valueable copper space. If you go vastly too far then the length of turns in the coils will be adding too much resistance on the outer turns so I compromise with gaps equal to magnet width at the inner circle of the magnets.


You don't loose much volts by squeezing the coils a bit triangular at the inner circumference of the hole and those short turns have little resistance and the gain is made up by being able to get more turns in.


If you must make the coil legs a pole pitch you will have to resort to overlapped coils, it only happens on the outer few turns of a single layer winding, but you will come off much worse with a full pitched 2 layer winding in terms of greatly increased resistance from the end windings. For axials the simple single layer winding works out better and is infinitely easier to wind. The same doesn't apply to radial designs.


Flux

« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 12:43:54 AM by Flux »

oztules

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Re: 6 KW grid tied Generator
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2009, 02:31:00 AM »


"For axials the simple single layer winding works out better and is infinitely easier to wind. The same doesn't apply to radial designs."


Hmmm, I was idly considering the task of building a dual radial flux. I was considering the single layer coil design, the same as the axial flux I have (different plane obviously).


I want it enclosed from the elements a bit better, and figure this would do it..... now you appear to be scotching this idea.... or is that for the iron cored type you have built previously.


Should I be considering the coil layout you used in your iron core radial (brake drum style)..... it would be messy to get the magnet rims into place in that case. (winding ends wider than the magnet path  areas)


..............oztules

« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 02:31:00 AM by oztules »
Flinders Island Australia

Flux

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Re: 6 KW grid tied Generator
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2009, 02:57:53 AM »
With radials there is much more room for the overlapped end connections so you can probably gain with a full set of coils compared with the part wound single layer winding.


I see your problem, the overlapped coils suit an air gap winding on a laminated iron core but if you make it dual rotor you do have the problem of the overlapped ends being in the way. You could solve it by making one end bend up and the other down and separate the magnet drums to slide the stator in. I have thought of this but never tried You may well be better off with the single layer winding for ease of assembly.


Personally I find the smooth laminated core with a single magnet drum round the outside to be the easiest way, the iron loss is very small and causes no trouble during start up or running. The thing is infinitely easier to wind on a core rather than have to position the coils accurately to get two small clearance gaps. The outside of a motor core is good enough as long as you grind away any heavy welding to hold the core together and these cores are easy to find. I removed the teeth to save weight but this is not necessary.


I do agree that the weather protection is very much better and I have had no magnet corrosion with the drum machines. The big snag with radials is that you need to get it right, you can't fiddle the flux density like an axial with magnet clearance. As long as you get cut in right you can always add line resistance if it stalls. Mine uses a boost converter and is matched for high wind, the low end can be fiddled with the converter so life is easier.


It would be better still to match the low wind and use a buck converter for high wind but that becomes a lot more demanding on the converter.


One thing needs to be watched, the magnet spacing needs to be different on a single layer winding compared to an overlapped coil design. Gaps about half magnet width suit the overlapped coil scheme but you will do better with far wider gaps in a single layer or you end up with too much winding missing.


Flux

« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 02:57:53 AM by Flux »

Menelaos

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Re: 6 KW grid tied Generator
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2009, 06:18:14 AM »
Ok...so what you mean is that the Space between magnets on a rotor disk should be eqaul or more than magnet bredth on the inner side....

OK, for my new arrangement with 20 Poles od 80x40x20mm Magnets this would be about 20x8 cm =160 cm circumference.


160 cm/15 coils = 10.7 cm


10.7 cm minus the hole of lets say 2.7 cm at the inner side = 8 cm


So each side of the coil would be about 4 cm then which is equal to magnet bredth.

That seems quite a lot. Before I was planning not go go for more than 3 cm....


Im not sure if I should be happy with that...

But probably if I move the magnets closer together the distance between the magnets on each rotor will be less than the ones opposite. So the flux might partly go from one magnet to another on the same disk and thus reduce flux density in the airgap between the rotors...


SO if I want to reduce width of the coil legs I would have to leave Space between the coils which also seems stupid to me...

SO are there any experiences about flux loss when the magnet ends come closer that magnet bredth and if so, how great is the influence?


In my case with coil sides of 3 cm the space between magnets in the inner part would be 2.5 cm. Would the loss be noticable?


Max

« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 06:18:14 AM by Menelaos »