Author Topic: Fact or Fiction  (Read 355 times)

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JB

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Fact or Fiction
« on: August 19, 2004, 11:01:13 AM »
Good Morning. I know this post has nothing to do with alternate energy but was wonderin if this is true. My thermal Dynamics Plasma cutter went out. The first time they replaced the complete unit under warranty. 3 weeks ago It went out. No longer under warranty as it has been about 4 years now. It dont get used a lot as most of my work requires a torch but I do use it off and on for smaller stuff. The repair guy at the welding place told me the circuit board is no good. They are no longer available so it will cost abother 1200. to replace with a newer model. He said if a machine sits for a while the circuit board  can go bad. That doesnt make sense to me. Is he correct and what happens to it from sitting. Thanks JB
« Last Edit: August 19, 2004, 11:01:13 AM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2004, 11:12:29 AM »
Sometimes this is true if it has been left in damp conditions, but if kept dry there should not be a problem for years.

Ultimately electrolytic capacitors can die, but that shouldn't happen for about 10 years.

If that board is no longer available it was probably a bad design.

Flux
« Last Edit: August 19, 2004, 11:12:29 AM by Flux »

kurt

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2004, 11:27:04 AM »
sounds to me like the repair guy is feeding you a load of horse hockey i would contact thermal Dynamics and explane the situation to them and see if they can recomend an autherized service center in your area or something. i have never heard of a reputable manufacterer that does not stock replacement parts for a 4 year old machine


here is the thermal dynamics website they have custemer service contact info there

http://www.thermadyne.com/tdc/index.asp?div=tdc

« Last Edit: August 19, 2004, 11:27:04 AM by kurt »

whatsnext

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2004, 11:32:28 AM »
Something else I've seen happen is the designers don't add inrush current limiters into their designs. So, if the caps are fully discharged, something else blows, like the board traces, when units are turned on. This happens a lot with tube audio amps when 'designers' try to use power supplies that are much larger than the amp really needs. Have you tried pleading your case directly with the manufacturer instead of the seller. You might be able to get some sympathy if you can convince them that you're the sort of guy who would like to buy a few more new machines once your old one is up and running.

Hint hint.

John.......
« Last Edit: August 19, 2004, 11:32:28 AM by whatsnext »

baggo

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2004, 11:37:21 AM »
Hi JB,


As Flux suggests, the only components liable to fail are the electrolytic capacitors which do deteriorate if unused for a time but this usually takes years and unlikely in your case. There is a chance that relay contacts may oxidise as they rely on the wiping action as they operate to keep them clean. I agree with Flux that there probably is a design fault with the board or one or more components are operating too close to their safe limits. Manufacturers often cut corners on components to keep down costs. I am sure you would get it repaired for a lot less than the cost of the new board.


John

« Last Edit: August 19, 2004, 11:37:21 AM by baggo »

RobD

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2004, 06:36:40 AM »
The circuit board itself is usually FR4 material which is fiber glass. This shouldn't go bad and I would think if there were caps on the board that surged you would have seen a trace failure before now.

It is possible the caps went bad but the new electrolytics (whats inside the caps) doesn't dry out the way it used to. You might find something as simple as a connection that has deteriorated so check the wiring to the board.

RobD
« Last Edit: August 20, 2004, 06:36:40 AM by RobD »

laskey

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2004, 07:51:51 AM »
Everyone is right on.  A board doesn't go bad from sitting.  If it has a microprocessor and firmware settings that it can loose, well that "could" be a different story.


The only reason a manufacturer would stop stocking a  replacement board is if it preformed so badly that they we're losing tonnes of money on it, or that machine was way old.  


It sounds to me like this repair guy wants to take you to the cleaners.  HE should be able to tell you whats wrong, and why, and fix it at the component level if he's worth going back to... Not this "oh you need a whole new board"  what it is a  plasma cutter or a computer?


Cya,

Chris

« Last Edit: August 20, 2004, 07:51:51 AM by laskey »

JB

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2004, 05:41:38 PM »
Hello Chris.It is a plasma cutter. They say I need a complete new machine as the circuit board is no good and not available. JB
« Last Edit: August 20, 2004, 05:41:38 PM by JB »

laskey

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2004, 07:18:08 PM »
Well, you see I was being sarcastic. I know it's a plasma cutter, sorry for any confusion, I just have real trouble believing when someone says "it's no good you need a new one"


I'd definately get a second opinion on that one.


Cya,

Chris

« Last Edit: August 20, 2004, 07:18:08 PM by laskey »

nack

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2004, 09:05:52 PM »
What model is it?  Looks like Thermal Dynamics has very good service literature available for download.  All the units I looked at have at least several board assemblies, does your repair person have an opinion as to which board needs replacement?  If so, you should check the manufacturer for availability of replacement - maybe a superceding part?  I strongly doubt that they are going to just leave the customer hanging, they are in a business that will not readily forgive a four year old machine being un-repairable.  If the service guy is right, and there is no replacement, then repair the original, or reproduce it on perf-board - the schematics are published in the back of the service manuals.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2004, 09:05:52 PM by nack »

RatOmeter

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2004, 07:23:23 AM »
I know everyone else has said that the fellow who told you that sitting idle will kill the plasma cutter is full of hot air... and they're right, of course.


However, just sitting around in a dirty environment can lead to an early demise.  Where I used to work, we had a Thermal Dynamics brand "Dynapak" plasma cutter.  It got used frequently in the fabrication shop and worked without a hitch until one guy borrowed it.  When he brought it back the next day, it blew the circuit board the first time it was kicked in.  Funny thing, he didn't even use it when he took it home.  He just left it sitting on the seat in his pickup truck... with the window rolled down a little.  It so happened that it rained that night, but not directly on the plasma cutter.


I tore into the dead unit to see what was up with it.  It had blown apart 1 large capacitor and several of the Hexfet ICs.  What was revealing, though, was that there were many places on the circuit board where very fine metallic dust had settled in.  Remember, this unit spent its whole life in a fab shop which was also home to a drill press, a bandsaw, MIG and TIG welders as well as numerous grinding operations.  Guess where the metal dust came from?  Guess what killed the plasma cutter?  I'm certain that some water got on the circuit board during the rain storm, pooled up with some metal dust and then slithered off to find high voltage to play with.


After that post-mortem, we decided to require the fab techs to gently blow any dust and whatnot out of the plasma cutters and welding machines at least once a week with compressed air.


To my knowledge, no more failures of that nature have occured there in the seven or so years after that preventive maintenance decision.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2004, 07:23:23 AM by RatOmeter »

Opera House

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2004, 03:25:43 PM »
Let's face it. If the service guy really knew something, he wouldn't be working at a weld shop. If he has to replace a board to fix it, he doesn't know much more than you do.  A friend bought a pallet of these from a repair center and had me fix them.  Most of the problems were simple. They would rather sell a new unit than fix it.  On one board, the tech went as far as replacing the power supply cap and then gave up.  He had read a short, but it was the bridge rectifier and the power transistor for the inverter that powered the electronics. You don't have much to loose. Ask around at a couple technical schools to see if someone there wants to take a crack at it.  Chances are the problem is very obvious to someone technical.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2004, 03:25:43 PM by Opera House »