Ethanol Boosting

[wdyasq]

Ford claims to be planning on using ethanol boosting to make a small gasoline engine as  or more powerful than diesels and as economical. Presentation:

http://www.ethanolboost.com/EBS_Overview.pdf

This stuff may be in the late prototype stage or possibly 'pre-production'. Anyway, an interesting thing to read and do a bit of research on.

Ron

[luckeydog]

Great Info. its worth the read.

thank you for posting

Luckeydog

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[Bruce S]

It was an interesting read.

Most of what they are talking about was done several years ago by Mother Earth News, and tons of Muscle Car owners, for carburated <-sp? engines.

Back in the muscle car days, when compression ratios where up around 10:1 this was common place, except that we bought denatured Alky by the gallon and used vacuum as the "switch" to inject Alky. Once 12Vdc windshield washer motors became easy to get at the local auto-parts, the newer switches became much easier.

Some of the stuff they put forth would need a little closer inspection, i.e. smaller engines versus larger units.

Smaller= doesn't always mean better.

I do like the idea of just plain getting smaller engines into cars/trucks, just how much "power" does one need to propel a single person in an SUV :-)?

I would like to see how they arrive at 150Octane using E85, current off the shelf is rated at 105, could be merely a typo.

Thanks for the link!! it does show that they are listening

Cheers

Bruce S

 

[DamonHD]

just how much "power" does one need to propel a single person in an SUV

It will depend on the front area and thus drag for motorway driving, and for stop-start town driving the mass of the vehicle as well.

Rgds

Damon

[TomW]

Damon;

The better question might be:

Why do most of these idiots even have the SUV?



Most never even get on a rock road let alone off a road all together. Just silly.

We need and have a 4X4 pickup but, as anyone who has been here knows, in winter you will not get up here to the house without the 4X4 and the truck gets used regularly on the farm. The daily driver is a New Beetle because the truck is a glutton for fuel.

Townies with the big 4X4 8 passenger vehicles that never carry anything but a driver and maybe groceries deserve the anal raping they get at the gas pump, in my opinion. Just ignorance, I guess.

End rant

Tom

[phil b]

If Ford would import their own cars into the US from Brazil, we would have small gas tanks to start the car in cold weather and run on almost 100% ethanol.

TomW-

Townies with the big 4X4 8 passenger vehicles that never carry anything but a driver... Agreed. My big farm pickup gets 20 mpg. My escourt gets 30. Thats a duh thing as which one I should drive to work? The pickup of course! Keeps the suvs from running me over. Not really, I've learned the graceful art of dodging.

[Bruce S]

Damon;

  Work calls started coming in 3 at a time. Forgot to put ";-)" face on there.

That part was meant to be retorical.

Cheers

Bruce S

[Bruce S]

phil b;

 You are very correct on this!! Both GM and Ford have had since about 1990 cars being sold there that run on pure E100. the most sales go towards ones that auto-adjust to any of the above.

My selections are Chinese scoot 150cc = 75mpg, MB 300D= 30mpg (using WVO) recumbent bike = 3000calories hr.

I chose scoot, able to dodge SUVs easier and honk at same time, plus it has an added cup holder for morning coffee:- and the new heated riders jacket allows to ride in cooler weather .

BUT we digress from original post;

In the read , the parts I had some problems with, where the way they put the diesel and standard fuel vehicle against this "new" one. Plus the E85 being up at 150 Octane is a little suspect.

They talk about better, but in the read they then begin to talk about adding DI , then adding a 2nd tank. They would've been better leaving the swipe out and explaining their concept IMO.

I don't like putting links up to other company's that sell, but there's a company online selling (NOT ebay!!) that has been showing people how to "boost" for a couple years now. Without the need for new head, injectors or technology.

Still , it is a good read and does show they, at least, are still thinking about all this.

Cheers

Bruce S

[Jeff]

Just a note for a few that haven't heard. This is a "somewhat good thing" for passenger vehicles. E85 or other alchohol type additives are not doing too good on small engines such as lawn mowers & weed-eaters. In fact, if those small engines are not modified to run on this type of fuel, they're doing a huge amount of damage!

The system talked about in the link though, IS a good thing for passenger vehicles, so it's worth your time to look into.

Don't forget though, auto manufacturers have long-made their policy of only making additions or modifications that eventually make them money! I was involved in a project in the early 80's designing and building an engine that eliminated the valve train. It used a cam/valve that was a rotating cylinder replacing the valves. It eliminated the conversion of rotating motion to reciprocal motion as in "cam to valves". It worked fantastic! It eliminated a lot of lost HP due to change of motion, less moving parts and less moving mass. Also the system could be designed to operate similar to a turbocharged or supercharged engine. The result was a Chevy 305 engine, producing 400+ HP and still getting close to 30mpg. The other major result was GM buying the patent rights, and NEVER appearing on the market! What really got my co-worker and I mad was this was the prototype, and we had plans on starting the drag-racing version! The same 305 engine with a 600+HP output! Well, it wasn't our design entirely. We just worked out the details and did the machining/assembly work. So...another major improvement in auto/engine technology held back by the major money-makers due to who would benefit from it the most!

Sorry about getting into the "rant" mode, but I think of this every time I see a new marketing push on improved auto engine efficiency.

[spinningmagnets]

http://www.coatesengine.com/

They claim since it runs cooler than conventional exhaust valves, it can use 11:1 compression ratio with low-octane gasoline. Clearly they can smoothly spin to a very high RPM.

[Jeff]

WOW! I'll be .....  !!!! I gotta wonder how the guy ended up with the patent rights? Exactly the same thing!

[Bruce S]

Rural McG;

 It would be nice to "see" those plans. The patent rights should be close to being out. Most patents have to be renewed every 10 years.

Bruce S

[electrondady1]

it's difficult to take these "engineering breakthroughs" seriously.

i believe the principal of rotary valves has been around for a long time.

since the time of steam engines.

turbo charging /super charging and water/alcohol injection was heavily researched back in the 20's and 30's

they have been making cars for 100 years now.

but it seems they keep doing research on the same stuff.

like they need to trick each new generation into thinking there doing something.

 

[wdyasq]

"they have been making cars for 100 years now.

but it seems they keep doing research on the same stuff.

like they need to trick each new generation into thinking there doing something."

While I agree a lot of this was researched in the 20's and 30's - alcohol injection was common of fighter aircraft in WWII - supercharging dates from about 1910 and such...

It is only in the last few years the computer power, sensors, injectors and such have been available so interactive controls of the process can occur. Even diesel engines have 'improved' performance and better emissions due to electronic controls on injection.

Controlling fuel and air flow, changing valve and injection timing 'on the fly', sensing 'knock' and adjusting the parameters in real time in a mass produced moving vehicle would have been impossible only a few years ago.

The 'New Generation' IS doing something. They are using the tools created by the last generation and using them to control reactions the precious generation may have known about but couldn't control. We are only allowed tools available at the time.

Rom

[Bruce S]

It is strange that they seem to keep "reinventing" these old ideas every so many years apart ;-)

Even a decade or so ago there was a gentleman that was able to produce, with his own money, much higher MPGs by merely using add on parts for better air control around the car, mostly in the ground effects region, much like F1 cars did back in the 70s when the Elf Torrelle 6-wheel car came out.

With new "tools" comes new insights. Will be interesting to see how far they push the limits this time.

Bruce S

 

[electrondady1]

it's just my opinion, but i think their "flogging a dead horse"

if you lift the hood on a modern vehicle you can no longer see the engine.

system ,on system ,on system,hidden beneath showy air plenums  

home repair, and maintenance next to impossible.

making a devise ever more complex is not good engineering .

   

[dnix71]

The 150 octane rating has me puzzled. Anything above about 118 doesn't get you anything in terms of power.

Could you use moonshine in a pinch? Would the injector system know? I have friends that mod oil injector minibikes to bypass the injectors and then run 2-stroke mix. Somehow the injector system knows if you use anything other than the approved oil and shuts the bike down.

[Bruce S]

I am more than a Little suspect of the 150 rating. I'd like to know where they came up and what eles is in there to give it that high a rating.

Back in the days of Leaded fuel and Sunoco's dial-an-octane pumps, you could go all the way to 110 if you had a Mopar or like breathing vehicle.

Even E85's rating isn't that high. Pure gas is hardly ever anymore over 100 at that would be way too expensive these days.

Gasoline is normally mixed stuff anywho

APfuel for Cessna's and the like is still around 110 (also considered racing gas, but out of my street pocket book)

Cheers

Bruce S