Author Topic: Thunderstrike into PMG tower?  (Read 3241 times)

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amiklic1

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Thunderstrike into PMG tower?
« on: February 14, 2005, 11:18:47 AM »
Hi!


I wander, did anyone see that thunder strikes into the wind generator tower. It is mostly made os steel, and I am afraid that it would attract lightnings.


Does anybody have some experience in this?

« Last Edit: February 14, 2005, 11:18:47 AM by (unknown) »

alcul8r

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Re: Thunderstrike into PMG tower?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2005, 06:20:34 AM »
Absolutely hasta gotsta Ground the tower, preferably every leg and every guy wire.  Some people put an inductor top and bottom of the power wires coming down, don't know how this would affect it if coming down AC.


Has anyone tried using an oversized yaw bearing and running a lightning rod up through it?

« Last Edit: February 14, 2005, 06:20:34 AM by alcul8r »

wpowokal

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Re: Thunderstrike into PMG tower?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2005, 07:46:29 AM »
This is a curley one with lotz of opinions, my  advice is to ensure that the highest posible point of your tower is at ground potential.


Ok, what this means is a ground connected cable is connected to the highest possible point of the tower, realistically somewhere under the turbine.


The cable needs to be substantial and well grounded, all this means is that if the top of the tower is at ground potential in a thunder storm it is less likley to be a lightening conductor.


Like most things in life this comes with no guarentee but one does the best possible.


regards Allan

« Last Edit: February 14, 2005, 07:46:29 AM by wpowokal »
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finnsawyer

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Re: Thunderstrike into PMG tower?
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2005, 10:09:53 AM »
Actually, putting the top of the tower at ground potential makes it more likely to be hit by lightning as lightning follows the shortest path to ground.  (In reality the top of a steel tower is already essentially at ground potential).  The purpose of the ground wire is to shunt the current away from stuff you don't want it to go through.


A few years ago a neighbor had five cows killed by one lightning strike that came down/up? through an oak tree.  I had the privilege the next year to saw the logs from that tree into lumber.  There was a grove down one side two inches wide and an inch deep and a grove down the other side one inch by one inch.  Nothing to fool around with.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2005, 10:09:53 AM by finnsawyer »

troy

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Re: Thunderstrike into PMG tower?
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2005, 10:38:50 AM »
Yes, it has happened in the past.


Yes, it will happen again in the future.


Yes, it could be your tower, your mill, your inverter and your house.


Ground the tower well and consider a lightning arrestor on the line into the house.  Not really cheap, not really expensive either.  But compared to a burning house, cheap indeed.


Good luck, have fun, play safe!


troy

« Last Edit: February 14, 2005, 10:38:50 AM by troy »

electrondady1

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Re: Thunderstrike into PMG tower?
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2005, 10:55:26 AM »
i don't know about a pmg tower but about 20 years ago before we had cable our tv tower( 40feet ) was struck by lightning. there was a fiberglass cb antena on top . it was shatered and blown apart. the tv and and cb were both cooked . it was very loud!!
« Last Edit: February 14, 2005, 10:55:26 AM by electrondady1 »

Chiron

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Re: Thunderstrike into PMG tower?
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2005, 04:31:52 PM »
The best lightning protection would be to put the entire turbine in a Copper box buried 20 feet underground. ;)


The turbines around here are very prone to lightning strikes, even heavy "clear air discharges" happen from time to time but in the spring and summer months about once a week a thunderstorm rolls through and whacks several of them.


Best practical lightning protection I've seen.





The circular object near the center of the picture is a brass rod 3" in diameter and goes through the thickness of the blade. The rod is connected to a thickwalled Copper tube runs the length of the blade coming out into the hub and grounded through the main shaft. Which is grounded through the tube to the grounding system in the pad. These turbines routinely take direct strikes on the blades and keep right on running even though they have sensitive CMOS control circuits right next to the gearbox.


At any given time the highest point on a 3 bladed turbine is one of the blade tips.


I have had the thought that a thin copper or brass plate formed over the leading edge of a wooden blade and grounded to the steel hub, hub would also need good grounding, would give the lightning a harmless discharge path and also reduce leading edge erosion like the aircraft tape.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2005, 04:31:52 PM by Chiron »

John II

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Re: Thunderstrike into PMG tower?
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2005, 06:05:47 PM »
There are too schools of thinking on lightning protecting / prevention, and even some scientist don't agree on the subject. Having read a lot on the subject, here is my take on the situation.


(1) There is nothing more un-safe then a half way ground. A poor ground will invite lightning faster than just about anything. You are better off to have zero grounding than a half way grounded tower.


(2) A well grounded tower with the proper rods on it will actually prevent lightning strikes rather than draw it.


(3) Ground every cable and use several ground rods with quality connections at the base of your tower. If your soil is not good grounding material, consider home made salt wells.


(4) Make or purchase ionic dissipaters and mount them as high as you can get them. They look sort of like a chimney cleaning brush with a lot of sharp bristles poking out of them. These bleed off the corona discharge from the area before the voltage level can build up high enough to initiate a strike.


John II

« Last Edit: February 14, 2005, 06:05:47 PM by John II »

newguy

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Re: Thunderstrike into PMG tower?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2005, 07:58:13 PM »
do you supose anyone has captured this energy from a lightning bolt?

i know its far out there
« Last Edit: February 14, 2005, 07:58:13 PM by newguy »

Chiron

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Re: Thunderstrike into PMG tower?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2005, 10:03:09 PM »
The only instance I know of where someone harnessed lightning for a "practical" purpose was a Professor of Geology, Either in AZ or NM, I think it was NM since it seems he was doing it with LANL funding.


He was investigating how hollow tubes of sand got fused together in the desert that looked a lot like Trinitite (Green fused sand found at the Trinity site after the A-bomb test)


What he did was shoot small rockets trailing a thin wire into the clouds to get lightning to strike in a particular spot so they could see if these tubes were formed by lightning.


It worked.


Other than that I can't really think of how to harness a few million Amps at a few million Volts.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2005, 10:03:09 PM by Chiron »

wooferhound

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Re: Thunderstrike into PMG tower?
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2005, 05:34:38 PM »
You can use lightning to bring old dead bodies back to life . . .
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 05:34:38 PM by wooferhound »

newguy

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Re: Thunderstrike into PMG tower?
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2005, 10:13:39 PM »
awkward?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 10:13:39 PM by newguy »

kww

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Re: Thunderstrike into PMG tower?
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2005, 10:32:33 PM »
Some really old guy, Ben Franklen I think it was. ;-)

Kevin
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 10:32:33 PM by kww »

John II

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Re: Thunderstrike into PMG tower?
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2005, 08:44:04 AM »
It's easy to harness lightning strikes. You need one of those new super deluxe hyper lightning plasma bubble globe thingies  that looks like a miniature single pedestal clear glass water tower setting in your back yard. I would imagine one of those things could hold at least a trillion marble size ball lightings all bouncing off of each other inside of the thing. You have to use one ball lightning at a time as you drain them off through the warp strain amplifier reducer circuitry at the base. One good size ball lightning can run you a fully loaded house for at least 2 to 4 days depending on loads. On the other hand... I could be imagining the whole thing and it hasn't been invent -yet- : )
« Last Edit: February 16, 2005, 08:44:04 AM by John II »

finnsawyer

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Re: Thunderstrike into PMG tower?
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2005, 10:00:04 AM »
How about using all that current to refine aluminum?  Just a thought.  Maybe if you could get the current to flow down through a carbon rod in a vat of aluminum oxide you could get an instant battery.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2005, 10:00:04 AM by finnsawyer »

wooferhound

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Re: Thunderstrike into PMG tower?
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2005, 10:54:01 AM »
Ben Frankenstein
« Last Edit: February 16, 2005, 10:54:01 AM by wooferhound »

wooferhound

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Re: Thunderstrike into PMG tower?
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2005, 11:01:53 AM »
You would need a 1.21 jigowatt flux capaciter too . . .
« Last Edit: February 16, 2005, 11:01:53 AM by wooferhound »

nothing to lose

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Re: Thunderstrike into PMG tower?
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2005, 10:26:44 AM »
That was one of my thoughts, I dought I ever mentioned it before though.


"How about using all that current to refine aluminum? "


In my earlier experiments with producing hydrogen with a lye and water mix and aluminum an aluminum oxide is produced. The water gives off the hydrogen to the air but the oxygen oxidizes the aluminum. The oxidized aluminun is basically fine dust that has settled into the bottom of the stainless steel bowls. I figure drain that off, rinse well, you get back a strong lye water solution and lots of clean oxidized aluminum. Ship the oxide to a lightning prone site and pile it high and attract lighting to it.

WHAM, maybe you would release the oxygen from the oxide for cleaner air and have back your aluminum to recast into useable stuff again.


Using junk scrap aluminum for a way to produce hydrogen for a motor feul for cars as needed, maybe also capture the currant stored in the aluminum at the same time for charging batteries. This could provide dual feul for a hybrid electric hydrogen powered vehicle. On a large scale collect the oxides and recycle those. Maybe a few lighting strikes??


 Course we would need millions of sites to recycle it, lighting never strikes in the same place twice :)


Anyway, with further thought and research I think a fairly simple and cost effective solution similar to the above could make aluminum a very good renewable resource with other bennifits as well. By renewable resource I mean basically once we have plenty of aluminum for feul, create oxides, refine those oxides back to aluminum for feul again it's just like charging batteries or growing trees, renewable provided we don't just throw away the oxides as a by product!!

 Lighting of course would be a renewable or natural resource same as wind or sun. Also free, just need to capture it, we do it with wind and sun, so why not??

 And as for the water used, it also is somewhat renewable itself and plentyfull nearly everywhere. Does not have to be drinking quality, filtered swamp water will probably work fine. Hey maybe even reduce the need for water at the same time, pee in your fuel tank, save water by not flushing toilets at rest rooms and reduce the need for fresh drinking water to wash away the pee in the toilets :)

 Ok maybe that last one is a bit silly (maybe not).


 Hydrogen is everywhere, the oxygen could be released anywhere, lighting strikes probably everywhere also!

Perhaps this would be a possible solution to help clean CA. air. Ship the oxides to California, hit with a lighting bolt, release good clean oxygen then ship the aluminum back to us elsewhere. Or another thought is under the right conditions use the methode in areas with low rain fall. Try to get the oxygen released to combine back with hydrogen in the process and create rain which is water of course and one of the needed items for the water and lye solution :)

Also rain would wash the polution from the air some what, and using hydrogen for a feul insead of gasolene we would be producing less polution, eventually perhaps increasing the air quality. Who knows maybe even reverse the greenhouse effect a tiny bit.


As far as the lye itself, it comes from wood ash and is renewable also. Grow more trees (cleans the air, reduces CO2) burn trees for heat (creates ash) make lye, use above methode for feul etc.. Combine the released oxygen with hyrdrogen and the rain washes the polution from the air caused by burning the wood to begin with.


 I haven't done anything for a while with the aluminum/lye/water. My experiment has been sitting undisturbed and I looked at it the other day. The water is cyrstal clear and all the aluminun oxides are settled to the bottom. I have a few things to try soon now that it has aged awhile. Also I found a place to buy 50lb aluminum ingots, scrap prices. As the weather is getting better now I will be working towards a hydrogen powered generator and also motor vehicle very soon!

« Last Edit: February 17, 2005, 10:26:44 AM by nothing to lose »

Chiron

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Re: Thunderstrike into PMG tower?
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2005, 04:40:27 PM »
Does that work on ex wives?


.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2005, 04:40:27 PM by Chiron »

finnsawyer

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Re: Thunderstrike into PMG tower?
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2005, 09:18:58 AM »
This suggests setting up an experiment using a high voltage pulsed discharge to see if the idea has merit.


"Too many ideas; Not enough time"

« Last Edit: February 18, 2005, 09:18:58 AM by finnsawyer »

nothing to lose

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Re: Thunderstrike into PMG tower?
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2005, 11:55:59 AM »
Yes, I am stocking up on cats and felt gloves now, when I have enough cats I will do a static charge test :)


I think my cat could have refined 1lb last night when I touched it, and if I had had her on a tread mill gennie about the same time she could probably have charged a battery. Man that spark jumped!!! And I never saw the cat move so fast either :)

Was not intended, no I was not be cruel to an animal, just nature in action I geuss!!


But yes, once I get back to this more I was planning to see what I can do with various charges and oxides. I have to filter out my oxides, rinse and dry them, etc... and find various ways to shock them.


One thing I am thinking of trying is my electric fence charger. If the charger still works. I dought a fence charger would do anything really, but it put out about 10,000 volts when I tested it new and would run on standard 120AC. So that's probably the first thing I'll try is just grounding a bowl of oxide, toss in a fence wire and let it pulse a day or so and see if anything at all happens. If it does (I dought it) that would be easy enough for anyone to do and could be done from many power sources like wind or solar. Just pile it high and forget it for a month or so, use it for a dump load even. As I type this I pretty much know it won't work, but going to do it anyway just for the heck of it.


As for the lighting strikes, now that I think on a large scale might actually be useable. For the small individual person though not practicle of course. I do have a spot here in mind on my property that when I get enough oxides I plan to try it. Probably use the Ben Frankin aproach and fly a kite in a thunderstorm and just hope lighting hits it after I leave the area not while still holding the wire :)


I will need alot more oxides before I do that, and I will soon be doing a 50lb ingot in a 55gal barrel. Hopefully running a CONTROLLED experiment, not out of controll one!!!

« Last Edit: February 18, 2005, 11:55:59 AM by nothing to lose »