Author Topic: Blade hubs, balance and pain  (Read 1690 times)

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solarengineer

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Blade hubs, balance and pain
« on: July 13, 2007, 02:49:30 PM »
Hello List, I'm on my 3rd set of 18' blades and I'm using metal hubs. I spend untold hours making sure each blade is carefully crafted, ensuring length width and all that.

I have water jet hubs, exacting bolt patterns....


BUT THEN, once I put the blades in the hub, there is ALWAYS something wrong with the 120 degree point at the end of the blades where the 3 meet in the middle..... it doesn't matter if i take a year to measure and cut they never meet perfectly and I end up cutting the point off till they slide in.... Then I clamp all three blades on the hub, measure the tip spacing which is now off because of the fit at the dead center of the hub. and I drill and bolt. I can NEVER get a perfect fit because of the point cut at the blades root where the 3 merge together in the hub....


Is there some magic to this? and easier way to measure and cut perhaps? DanB any thoughts?? that 20ft machine must have been near impossible to line up!


Because of very small problems at this point cut, the tips are always a few inches closer or farther away from each other.





Does the few inches matter? does 6 inches matter?

Is there an untold error factor in blade top spacing that is generally acceptable for no worries? I know if the tip spacing is in error the the blades being 120 degrees apart is also in error.


Any advice or alternative methods on this would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks


Jamie

« Last Edit: July 13, 2007, 02:49:30 PM by (unknown) »

TomW

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Re: Blade hubs, balance and pain
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2007, 09:09:45 AM »
Jamie;


I have assembled a couple sets of blades but am far from an expert. That said, I don't think a mismatch in the points in the hub area is any deal at all. Blade tip spacing and tracking in same plane is more important. If I understand you right you are overthinking that center bit. I would suggest just just cutting the angles on that inner area to allow all 3 to seat the same distance into the hub.


Just my opinion and likely not something you can blindly follow.


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: July 13, 2007, 09:09:45 AM by TomW »

solarengineer

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Re: Blade hubs, balance and pain
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2007, 09:34:37 AM »
Hey Tom, Thanks for the reply.


I do cut the blade roots to the proper angle but they are always off ever so slightly that the blades don't seat exactly the same distance from the hubs center. the overall angle of the point is 120 degrees(60 on each side of the point) but sometimes im off by a degree and when i slide the blades into the hub the blades roots merge at slightly different spots.. its a bit noticeable, but by the time i get out to the blade tips its very noticeable.

I was just looking for different ideas on how people cut the root point. I tried a band saw and made a mess, the table saw wont rip through 4" thick material

so I use a large miter saw. but as i say its always slightly off.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2007, 09:34:37 AM by solarengineer »

richhagen

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Re: Blade hubs, balance and pain
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2007, 11:07:09 AM »
Hi, I'm not an expert on the larger blades, but I have assembled lots of smaller blade sets.  I think your exacting tolerances may actually be the problem.  You have left no 'wiggle' room.  What I do with the smaller blades is to leave enough wiggle room to shift them around a bit. I often trim the root end a bit, or move the blades out from center a bit to get proper alignment.  I line them up on a flat surface and measure the distance between tips.  I adjust the tips until they are equal distances apart and then tighten it down with screws to set it and then tighten any bolts.  The blade tracking and spacing usually come out reasonably close.  The next step is to balance the blades, placing weight on the light blade or blades near the root until it is balanced.  For my small blade sets I sometimes just add washers to the bolts holding the blades for the weight.  In the past, DanB has written that he has used decoy weights.  Those are the lead weights sold in hunting supply stores to weigh down decoy ducks in the U.S.  Rich
« Last Edit: July 13, 2007, 11:07:09 AM by richhagen »
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DanB

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Re: Blade hubs, balance and pain
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2007, 11:08:38 AM »
Hi Jamie -

I would try to get things as on center as possible.  Ideally its nice to get things close - but I expect even if you're fairly out you could balance it/it'd be fine.  Mine came out pretty close (measuring tip to tip we were less than 1" off) but you kind of have to take whatever you get once you've built the hubs and fitted the blades to the pockets.  Im sure it'll be fine...
« Last Edit: July 13, 2007, 11:08:38 AM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

solarengineer

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Re: Blade hubs, balance and pain
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2007, 01:23:16 PM »
ok, thanks everyone I'll get it as close as I can and balance


Jamie

« Last Edit: July 13, 2007, 01:23:16 PM by solarengineer »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Blade hubs, balance and pain
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2007, 01:41:22 PM »
It's wood.


Even if you get it dead on it will change over the next couple years or so as it finishes curing, weathers, shifts in the mount, etc.


While I'd try to get the blades as close to the right position as possible, I wouldn't worry too much about it.  Being off a bit does several things:


 - Angle-between-blades errors moves the center of gravity a tad off center.  (You can counter this with static balancing - which you have to do anyhow because the blades won't come out dead-even in weight and weight distribution.)


 - Angle-between-blades errors moves the center of effort a tad off center.  (But it's a tad off-center anyhow because the profiles of the airfoils won't be a perfect match, either.)  This will cause a slight circulation of the force on the mill as it rotates.  But if the error isn't enormous it will be small compared to other things, like turbulence and other non-ideal conditions in the incoming airflow.


 - Along-axis errors (i.e. tip of blades passing a point at different distances up/down wind) will cause dynamic imbalance.  Like the center-of-effort error this can also can produce a once/rotation cyclic force on the axle - this time with strength proportional strictly to rotational speed rather than being proportional to wind drag.  But again you also get this from uneven weight distribution.  Most of the mass of the blades is in a very thin disk and the rotation rate is pretty slow, so it takes a lot of misalignment to make dynamic imbalance a problem.


So in you're position I'd:

 - try to get the blade tips within an inch or so of evenly spaced around a circle,

 - also try to get them within an inch or so of equally fore-aft,

 - statically balance the blades, then

 - check for non-trivial wig-wagging around the yaw axis as it runs.


That will probably take care of it entirely.


If it wig-wags nontrivially I might then tweak the for-aft position of the tips or add dynamic balancing weights to the hub (equal amounts of weight on the front and back, 180 degrees apart) to kill the wig-wag.  Since drag goes up with rotation speed for the steady state, the wig-wag from dynamic balance and center-of-effort errors track well enough that you probably don't have to try to fix them separately, but can get it down to something that won't put excessive wear on your yaw bearing or twist on the power cable if you tune it out at a steady wind speed in the upper-middle of your typical wind speed range.


If it wig-wags a LOT I'd look for a defective blade, unbalanced alternator, bent shaft, or defective hub.  B-)

« Last Edit: July 13, 2007, 01:41:22 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

CreativePower

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Re: Blade hubs, balance and pain
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2007, 05:11:48 PM »
Hi Jamie,


I have come across a similar problem with cutting hardwood (it looks like some kind of hardwood from the pic) and the use of miter saw could be the source of the problem - I found for myself that when I used a miter saw to cut hardwood that blade wandered at least 1 degree over a distance of 5 inches - it took me several cuts to figure it out and found that I had to buy a $100 blade that had 60 tooth count with thermo expansion slots built in. Even with this I had to cut 3 time slower so that the blade wouldn't warp (this was for 3/4 thick hardwood). Given that yours is 4" thick - this would simply amplify the problem. You may want try cutting a blade width long from your finish cut then do a slow finish cut - this will allow for the blade to be cooled on the one side.


Hope this helps


DF

« Last Edit: July 13, 2007, 05:11:48 PM by CreativePower »

Countryboy

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Re: Blade hubs, balance and pain
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2007, 08:30:52 PM »
Instead of trying to cut the end of the root a perfect 120 degree angle, try cutting the root end of each blade at 115 degrees.


The 5 degree (or 10 degrees if you need it) wiggle room won't be much in the hub, but it will make things much easier for you.


Carpenters often cut angles a few degrees less than perfect, just to make things fit nicer.  If they try to make the angle 'perfect', any imperfection, such as blade deflection, will show up in final assembly.  Cutting angles a few degrees small allows them to 'hide' imperfections.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2007, 08:30:52 PM by Countryboy »

jmk

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Re: Blade hubs, balance and pain
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2007, 03:49:05 PM »
  I would cut the root so you can get your tips to line up. Then you can cut a wedge and glue it on the other side of the root to fill in the space. Then drill or re drill the hub. Your only talking about 3/16 of an inch at the root to make the tip move an inch. I bet if you figure out how to cut two of the blades it could be less, and then your 120 deg points would line up. You could fill the space in with resin too. Then static balance it.    
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 03:49:05 PM by jmk »

whatsnext

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Re: Blade hubs, balance and pain
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2007, 11:04:23 AM »
Why is it so important to you that all three blades touch each other? There isn't any load at that point to resist and even if there was your top cap would handle it. I would probably cut the roots away so there is no chance of them ever touching. That way you are free to align the blades as perfectly as possible before clamping them tight into your hub.

John.....
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 11:04:23 AM by whatsnext »