Author Topic: Can I put Iron in the coils ?  (Read 1317 times)

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Slarsen

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Can I put Iron in the coils ?
« on: December 10, 2006, 10:36:57 AM »
Hi


I'm a newbee !!! thinking about a 2 -3 m ( 6-9 feet) windmill.


I'm hoping for 1kW .... I'm not interesting in Voltage supply, only heat.


Hughs and others 6-8 feet windmill will be my inspiration, but modified.


The PMG is "normally" 8" but I think 12-14" will be better cause the magnet speed will be app. 30% higher and wing-RPM lower for same energy. That why I want to make the wings 1-2 feet longer..


All 12-16 coils will be setup to a 2 phase output, for max voltage. Now I know that I can just add more turn on the coils, but I like to use the coils for brakes. Now I'm hoping for min. 100V and then add the AC directly to a resistor. When the current is doubled I just add a resistor more , aso.


Now for the question:


Can I put Iron in the coils, for higher Voltage ?


I know this will limit the current, but this is no problem cause I will design to a lower mean wind. If I don't use the force of the wings, may a double PGM? (this could also double the Voltage)


Soeren in Denmark

« Last Edit: December 10, 2006, 10:36:57 AM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: Can I put Iron in the coils ?
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2006, 06:55:38 AM »
I think you are expecting too much. Yes you can get 1kW from a small machine but only in exceptional winds.


For heat 1kW is very little and if you only get it during storms then you will not have enough heat to be useful in normal winds.


I don't understand why you want 2 phase, it is as difficult to switch as 3 phase and has no particular advantage.


If you want to use iron then use a slotted laminated iron core, don't try messing about with iron in the conventional dual rotor. The only sensible way to build an iron cored axial machine is with a single rotor and slotted core, but it is more trouble than a radial ( motor conversion), where motor cores are readily available.

Flux

« Last Edit: December 10, 2006, 06:55:38 AM by Flux »

DanB

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Re: Can I put Iron in the coils ?
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2006, 08:41:05 AM »
Yes, I guess Ill just second what flux has said here.


You can get 1KW from such a small machine but only in high winds  - I expect if you build it well then 'average' output will be around 100 watts or less which is insignificant if you're after heat.  Even 1000W is pretty insignificant for heating.


And yes.. I second everything flux has said about putting iron in the coils.  You say you're designing for a lower wind - if you want 1000 watts in lower winds you need a very large machine.  It all boils down to swept area and matching the alternator to the blades.  Adding iron to the alternator might get you more power from a smaller alternator (along with lots of other problems) but  your concern should be building 'an appropriate alternator that matches your blades' - which you can do without iron and  your better off that way if you're planning a dual rotor axial flux machine.


If you don't have it - you should get 'Windpower Workshop' by Hugh Piggott, it's a fun read and it'll get you off to a good start I think.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2006, 08:41:05 AM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

finnsawyer

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Re: Can I put Iron in the coils ?
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2006, 09:14:41 AM »
You say you are interested in heat, which is power or watts.  Power, in turn is the product of voltage times current.  A generator will provide maximum power out when the load it is connected to is equal to the generator's internal resistance.  Also, the power then dissipated in the generator is equal to the power dissipated in the load, so you only get half the wind mill's power output.  Lowering or raising the load resistance from that value will result in less power to the load, if the generator voltage does not change.  With a wind mill, however, with less total power being produced the, mill will tend to speed up and produce a higher voltage and hence increase the power out.  The situation is therefore rather complex.


You are right about the effect of increasing the rotor size, but this generally would also involve larger magnets and coils.  In this regard I would like to introduce you to the alternator design that I outline in my diary.  This would utilize three coils for each pair of magnets (a 3:2 ratio).  It would also require a rotor about twice the diameter of a 3:4 three phase design with the same number and size of magnets.  The output of my proposed design would be single phase, which should be no problem for heating.  The larger number of coils does imply a larger resistance, which may or may not be a problem.  In any case you would be trying something totally new, if you were to try that design.


As far as iron in the cores, some cogging should be acceptable.  Since the stator is fixed you could drill and tap holes in the coil centers and insert threaded rods to any degree you wished.  The presence of the iron rods would tend to both increase the flux and reduce leakage flux.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2006, 09:14:41 AM by finnsawyer »

wdyasq

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Beware of unworkable ideas
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2006, 10:26:15 AM »
  Slarsen,


As one new to wind power needs to proceed slowly. For a first wind-machine one needs to build a known design.


The qualities of a known design are many. One will be relatively assured of an output. Many problems one hasn't even considered have been found and cured. One can get honest advice and work out things that don't go as planned. One will learn a lot just building something.


Working devices many times have pictures and tables with speed and output.  Sketches of ideas should not be considered plans but dreams. It is expensive and frustrating to try to develop others nightmares. Nightmares are a type of dream.


In my opinion, heating is not a good use of electricity. There are several who are using larger mills for heating. There are some designs for mills for heating.


Proper use of a search engine will  bring up many ideas and designs that may work for you. It will also teach you which posters have honest working knowledge.


Ron

« Last Edit: December 10, 2006, 10:26:15 AM by wdyasq »
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badmoonryzn

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Re: Can I put Iron in the coils ?
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2006, 03:31:54 PM »
All of the great advice offered here is wonderful and I have learned so much in the last year. I suggest you do something like I have done and wind several coils of different wire size and make one magnet rotor and place the coils in a device designed to hold the coils and try each one at different RPMs, different magnets, different wire gages, try the influences of different type of cores, air gaps and on and on and on. I am doing this so I can learn how the changes affect/effect?  ( Damn I forget??? The seventies were fun, but all that fun is starting to show! Get the dictionary, NAA!)   the designs. I am interested in the lowest RPM cut in and the most power at low wind speeds. Living in the lower end of the Willamette Valley my lack of winds over 8 mph most of the year is a problem.


They are pretty steady at this low speed, however when they blow they go plus 50. It is feast or famine. I am also going to put one in the water using an undershot wheel so it too needs to run at pretty low rpms. If I use a standard 10k alternator I will have to gear it up so, so I need to build my own to customise the speed that it will produce power and anything above is just icing on the cake. Who knows I may change nothing, but I want to know if it is all feasible to get a bit closer to where I would like to be without causing other problems, so here I am. I'm afraid I'm going to end up looking like a porcupine here on this little 3 acre lot. It's a good thing I'm out of town and I have good neighbours. I'll bet they like this way better than when I was racing cars and bikes. I use to run up and down the eighth mile driveway at 80 plus with out any mufflers. They use to take bets on whether I would die when I crashed and they would stand out and watch me with that in mind. I really owe them so I need to keep things a quite as possible. Listen to these guys, they have so much practical and theoretical experience in this area.


I have experience in winding hobby motors for the little RC cars and planes and I'll bet I've done well over a hundred and fifty of the things, and if I learned anything it was how to wind the armatures and make them come out looking nice. Oh yea, I also learned how the wire size and turns affected the RPMs, current draw and smoothness/linearity of the throttle response. I found it to be quite rewarding because I could wind a motor for the track. If it was real tight I could use smaller wire, more turns 45 to 60 for better response, but not too much torque. If the track was big and lots of traction I could use big wire and less turns, 10 to 15 it gained lots of RPM, but it was an on and off throttle. I am still trying to figure out if that is useful in this hobby, but I'll find something I suppose. If anything it taught me that there are so many tangents to run off on and the only way to fully/sort-of understand is to ask lots of questions, do some experiments and always, I mean ALWAYS, use the search engines on this site otherwise someone will jump on your back and start kickin ass. LOL Sure is fun though. LOL Hoppy Halidays!


WorseMooney

« Last Edit: December 10, 2006, 03:31:54 PM by badmoonryzn »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Can I put Iron in the coils ?
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2006, 06:01:27 PM »
Putting iron cores in the coils reduces the effective gap, allowing considerable additional flux for a particular set of magnets - up to the point where the iron saturates, beyond which any additional flux "sees" the gap as a pretty good vacuum.


But there are a couple problems with that:


First:  An air core has no "cogging", while an iron core will have a lot of it unless you get the geometry just right.  This is because the magnets attract the cores and prefer to be over them to being over the gap between them.  This isn't an issue (except for extra vibration) once the mill is spinning.  But starting it is like pushing a car down a level road that is all bumps - you have to push HARD to get it over the first bump.  That means you need some minimum wind to get the mill to spin.  But while lift-type blades are very efficient and have a lot to torque when spinning they have very little when stopped - just when you need it most to overcome cogging and start the mill after a calm.


For battery-charging applications you can accept some cogging.  There's a minimum voltage you must exceed before the battery is charging, which means a minimum speed ("cutin speed") for the mill and a minimum windspeed to spin it that fast.  If you've got your cogging down to where the mill starts at a windspeed below that necessary for cutin, you're OK.  For heating there is no minimum:  If you can spin the mill you want the power, even if it's a small amount.  So you'd like the mill to start at a very low windspeed.


Keeping cogging low a radial-flux machine means careful design of the shape and position of the cores, and superb execution when putting them in place.  It's hard to calculate and hard to do.  Without cores you just have the coils.  Coil shape and location affects the output, but it's NOT critical - they'll work just fine when significantly out of shape and position.  And without cores the only thing keeping the mill from spinning is bearing friction, so it will start at a breath.


Second:  Cores have losses:  Iron losses - from the energy lost as heat when flipping the electron spins - and "copper" losses - from the energy lost to resistive heating by circulating "eddy" currents induced in the metal of the cores.  To minimize those you have to chose an alloy with low residual magnetism and build it in layers ("laminates") with insulation between them, oriented correctly with respect to the magnetic field motion.   (Look at transformers and generators to see how it's done.)  More critical alignment, more complex design and construction work.


The power lost to the cores comes from the mechanical power that you collected.  It's that much less that you have available at the output.  More importantly, the losses are dumped as heat into the stator.  The limit on an alternator is its ability to lose heat, to avoid melting metal, degrading insulation, and warping structures.  And the main downside to the homemade radial-flux machines is the difficulty of dissipating heat.  The heat from the cores is heat you can't dissipate from your coils.  If you leave the core out the only heat dumped in the stator is the copper losses from the real copper wriing - the unaviodable resistive heating from the output current and a trace of eddy-current heating.


Since all you are using the core for is increasing the magnetic flux through the coils, you can achieve the same effect by leaving out the cores and using big magnets - making them thick enough that they can drive the flux across a significant coreless gap.  Which is how the people who populate this board tend to design their axial-flux machines.


(Radial-flux motor-conversions don't have such an issue with heat:  There's plenty of surface area to dump it, lots of airflow to dump it into, and the coils aren't embedded in plastic.  The motor core geometries and alloys have been designed and debugged by engineers over more than a century and are mass-produced.  So converting is mainly a matter of building a replacement rotor with permanent magnets that doesn't cog badly - in a surrounding geometry where that's relatively easy to compute - and perhaps rewinding the stator according to well-known rules.  You can accept the core losses because they're not that great, you get some of it back by being able to run the coils cooler, and can compensate for the rest by making your blades a bit longer.  So you end up with a machine that can handle a lot of power gracefully, without burning up.)

« Last Edit: December 10, 2006, 06:01:27 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

badmoonryzn

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Axial flux vs. radial flux is there too much
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2006, 10:11:50 PM »
At what point does increasing the flux over the coils become moot? By increasing the flux using stronger magnets instead of using a laminated ferrous core of some type can cause heating or by using the laminated ferrous core and the stronger magnets. The later will cog like mad I'd guess and it would be hard to start, but using an axial with really strong magnets and a non ferrous core with the coils wrapped around it like the shoes on a starter motor connected to heat sinks and maybe a fan attached to help move air. Whatever, you get the idea. Will this have any problems with increased flux without magnetising the core element I am looking at a way to loose the heat using the axial design. In theory it does not care if you turn the rotor or the stator as long as one of them move. I'm just experimenting but I do not see why either would not work. I have run one coil with a load at 300 RPM and it heated up the coil to the point where I am a bit uncomfortable taking the time putting one way up in the air with the potential of overheating a possible issue. I am hopping to get all of the data I can so I can have it up for a few years without having to take it down for a new set of coils or a flame out. I could be way off, and I doubt it will be the last time, so if I am please save me some time. I would like to see the data on the standard magnets and the hard drive magnets. I understand one has the poles on the face and one on the ends. How do they get them like that? I would like to see them on a magnetic spectrum analyser. I'm having a hard time because the coils are wound the same way and they face the same direction as the one on the axial genny With the magnets and the coils facing and interacting in the same manner why would they need magnets with different poles! Something just ain't right! Off of topic, but with your wonderful explanation I thought I'd ask so I could get an answer I might understand. LOL Happy Holidays!


Regards


Badmoon


 

« Last Edit: December 10, 2006, 10:11:50 PM by badmoonryzn »

Flux

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Re: Axial flux vs. radial flux is there too much
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2006, 01:51:26 AM »
This is a bit off topic from the original question but probably worth answering.


There are really two issues , firstly the main cause of heating is the way these machines are loaded. Large power station alternators are over 96% efficient and they still have to resort to all sorts of things including circulating hydrogen to cool them. Just imagine the state they would be in if they worked at less than 50% efficiency. The conventional way of loading wind generators into batteries causes this level of efficiency.


The other issue is that the axial machine is at a significant disadvantage when it comes to cooling, compared to an iron cored radial with the coils transferring heat to a large outer surface via the iron.


Adding iron to a dual rotor causes many problems and does virtually nothing for the cooling except that it may let you use less turns of thicker wire. just filling the holes in the coils with something thermally conducting will do little to help.


The only way for the heat to escape is by radiation to the magnet rotors and convection to the air in the gap. Radiation will be small so you are forced to look at air flow over the surface of the coils and possible ways of conducting heat to some sort of sink outside the windings. Samoapower has been attempting to get the most heat directly out of the coils by leaving them exposed to the air flow as much as possible, it will be interesting to see what improvement it makes.


The only other solution is not to make as much heat in the first place. Dan and others tackle this problem simply by not allowing the machine to produce more power than the stator can get rid of. This for battery charging with the larger machines is simple and effective. If you have enough power in low wind then you have too much in high wind so don't produce it.


For those who want to be greedy they have to face this heating problem. If you can effectively use all the power into a battery in high wind then some form of load matching is essential, Even simple star/delta does a lot to help.


For those who want the high wind power as heat then you must let the machine speed rise with wind speed then the current for the same power is reduced and heat is proportional to the current squared.


If you want to build a machine and make it last for years then don't generate excess heat in the stator. Spend more money now, use bigger magnets and thicker copper. Get the cut in right for your prop in low wind and it will stall like hell in high wind. Now add the resistance needed to remove this stall in the rectifier leads to the battery. If you want heat you can use it. if you don't then just loose it but at least it won't be inside the stator. In short, keep alternator efficiency high and match the load by other means.


By all means try to devise better ways of cooling the stator, every little helps but unfortunately the best thermal conductors are also good electrical conductors so your options are limited. Any electrically conducting material in the region of the moving magnets will need to be laminated just as an iron core.

Flux

« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 01:51:26 AM by Flux »

badmoonryzn

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Re: Axial flux vs. radial flux is there too much
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2006, 08:57:41 AM »
Going back to the question, putting a ferrous metal in the flux field vs. a non-ferrous metal. If the magnet/flux strength is increased either by introducing iron in to the core or by using a stronger magnet. What is the point of dimishing or no return. If one was to use a non-ferrous metal in the core and wrapping the coils around them like in a shoe on a starters field windings. I realise the starter has steel laminate in the shoe, but what if they were made of a solid aluminium or copper with the coils wrapped around them and one used those cores for moving the heat out of the unit. If they are non ferrous, but still electrically conductive how much would if any difference would it make? Would it allow the heat to move out to the edge of the shoe or would it effect the flux field and decrease the output and increase the heat on the coils. If one was to design the shoes/heat sinks correctly they would move the heat outwards by convection. I hope I explained this better this time. The biggest disadvantage with the axial type is its inability to cool the coils and to take advantage of the cores effect on the flux field. I you were to increase the flux by using much stronger magnets and cool the coils by moving the heat out and dissipating it.


badmoon

« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 08:57:41 AM by badmoonryzn »

Flux

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Re: Axial flux vs. radial flux is there too much
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2006, 09:41:50 AM »
I think you explained perfectly the first time, it must be me that isn't making things clear.


If you put iron in the coil you increase flux up to the point where the iron is saturated, beyond that it acts the same as if it was non magnetic.


Adding any solid metal is not an option, the eddy currents induced in it will produce far more heat than you are hoping to remove. Solid lumps of aluminium or any metal can not be used.


When iron is used it must be thin laminations insulated from each other. Using a more conducting material such as aluminium will need the things to be far better laminated to reduce the circulating currents.


As I said above there is a point of diminishing return with iron when it becomes saturated. Without iron you can increase flux up to the maximum the magnet can produce, but again there is a diminishing return. With the gap length equal to the magnet you are at about half flux density. To get close to the magnet Br figure you need a magnet length many times the air gap. It is not reasonably practical to go beyond 1T and that would come at an enormous cost.


Beyond the cost of magnet there is no penalty to increasing the flux through the coil.


I don't think there is an enormous amount to be gained by messing with thermally conductive bits in the hole in the coil, the area for cooling that you gain is relatively small.


The best chance would be some good thermally conductive substance around the outside of the coils where you could get real cooling but your choice of anything reasonable as a thermal conductor that doesn't suffer from eddy currents is limited.


 "would it effect the flux field and decrease the output and increase the heat on the coils."


A conductive core would actually reduce the flux penetration in the coil and reduce its output, but the main effect would be that the flux cutting the solid core would

Produce an enormous amount of heat in the core and most of your power would be lost in heating these lumps so what the coil produced would be virtually insignificant.


Flux

« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 09:41:50 AM by Flux »

ghurd

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Re: Axial flux vs. radial flux is there too much
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2006, 10:38:57 AM »
Badmoon,

Might be something in here...

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/8/23/144336/344

G-
« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 10:38:57 AM by ghurd »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

badmoonryzn

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Re: Axial flux vs. radial flux is there too much
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2006, 05:48:35 PM »
Thanks guys, I think I got it now. If one was to get any heat removed it would have to be a non-conductive, non metallic substance in the flux field or it would generate more heat. I tried to picture the eddy currents in the motors flux fields, but I get confused between axial and radial flux fields. It is hard for me to picture the interactions without pictures. LOL I want to figure a way to use the axial alternators and find a way to pull out the heat from the coils. It's pretty easy on a radial because the thing is round and the stator can be put in several places that cool well. I will continue to look in to this problem because I think the axial has potential we have just scratched the surface on. Has anyone used one of the PCB stators? I'm curious how many amps, volts, heat and so on. I think it a great idea for gennys under 1k, of coarse there is the distinct possibility I'm just nuts. Thanks Flux for your patience in explaining.


Badmoon

« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 05:48:35 PM by badmoonryzn »