Author Topic: Outdoor furnace/radiant floor heat questions  (Read 4228 times)

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POC

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Outdoor furnace/radiant floor heat questions
« on: January 05, 2008, 02:23:25 AM »
Hi all, new here.  I've read lots of posts here about outdoor furnaces, water-jacketed and otherwise.

I've read about designs and saw some pictures.

I have at my immediate disposal; 2 fuel oil tanks and several 55 gallon drums.

I don't know if I should travel down the road of 55 gal inserted into the fuel oil tank and fill with water.  Or should I just use one of the big tanks as a firebox buried in a lot of sand, surround with copper tubing...


I think that either way, I need some form of water storage and temperature and pressure relief valves.


About radiant floor...

Do I have to use PEX?  Can't I use copper?

I've seen the kits that are used for PEX, with the aluminum diffuser panels, etc.

Couldn't foil faced insulation be used in place of the aluminum?


Any suggestions?


Right now we're using electric baseboard, and with the temps dropping into the single digits last week, we had temps in the house down to 64.


Thanks for any suggestions.


Patrick

« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 02:23:25 AM by (unknown) »

jonas302

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Re: Outdoor furnace/radiant floor heat questions
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2008, 07:32:26 PM »
copper would be insanly expensive pex is very cheap and easy to work with

foil stapled to the bottom of the floor would probly work fine as far as a stove the material you have is way to thin it would work but not for long
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 07:32:26 PM by jonas302 »

Goose

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Re: Outdoor furnace/radiant floor heat questions
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2008, 08:25:09 PM »
I know of a few people that have used copper, one person is going on 30 years now with his copper infloor.  But I agree, why go copper when PEX is so cheap.  Also remember.....concrete will always crack and move.  PEX will give more, and if water freezes in PEX, it won't break.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 08:25:09 PM by Goose »

POC

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Re: Outdoor furnace/radiant floor heat questions
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2008, 08:38:12 PM »
I'm adding this to my existing house.  It sits on a crawlspace, so I'll be adding lines between the joists.


I didn't realize PEX was cheaper.....thanks.


Patrick

« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 08:38:12 PM by POC »

KEG

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Re: Outdoor furnace/radiant floor heat questions
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2008, 09:36:05 PM »
Were are you located ?

out door temp has alot to do with how you deal with out door heating unit what ever it might be.

I have hooked up some of the commercial boilers and they were all open loop systems that go to a heat exchanger in side, and the boiler was filled with glycal so if the fire went out it wouldn't freeze.

the tubing under the floor joists is in my opinion the least desierable way to go but it has been done alot, you just staple the tube to the middle of the joist or if your good you can get a double pass down it, you don't have to put the foil or emision plates on but they do work well to disipate the heat across the floor.

when you insulate under the tube you leave a air gap at the top of the joist where the tube is.

hope this helps.

kevin

« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 09:36:05 PM by KEG »

thirteen

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Re: Outdoor furnace/radiant floor heat questions
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2008, 10:47:53 PM »
have you looked into heat pump systems. once in the solar panels with bat banks would make your sytem self sustaining. They are $$ to put in but the good ones are worth it in a couple of years they pay for them selves. Plus fuel prices will be goning up. You might work it so that you could use wood also. Watch cutting into and modifying you tanks they may just give you a big but short fire. Carefull please.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 10:47:53 PM by thirteen »
MntMnROY 13

POC

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Re: Outdoor furnace/radiant floor heat questions
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2008, 08:13:54 AM »
I'm in southern Indiana.

Temps range down to 0F, but only a few days a year.  The mid twenties are not unusual for an "average" low I'd say....
« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 08:13:54 AM by POC »

POC

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Re: Outdoor furnace/radiant floor heat questions
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2008, 08:16:13 AM »
No, I haven't looked into heat pumps.  I have more wood than I could ever burn so that seemed an economical way to go for me.


Patrick

« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 08:16:13 AM by POC »

jonas302

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Re: Outdoor furnace/radiant floor heat questions
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2008, 08:32:11 AM »
I've worked with a lot of these systems one thing I found is a lot of thermal mass is only good if you can heat it quicky at one time our boiler system had almost 8000 gallons heated nice as long as the fire never went out took days to reheat it was also tied to a million btu off peak electric system


around here the insurance companys want the stove 75 feet from the house if ins is  a consideration best to check first


as far as temp and pressure releif leave it an open non pressure system and you will not need these just put a tin can on top of your fill hole on the boiler if it gets to hot it will come out there


If you didn't want to use floor heat it would be easier to use a radiator with a fan to get the heat out

Hope you get warmed up

Jonas

« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 08:32:11 AM by jonas302 »

nanotech

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Re: Outdoor furnace/radiant floor heat questions
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2008, 04:59:16 PM »
I have an old Woodmaster 434 outdoor wood furnace.  I worked at Woodmaster for a year, so I'm familiar with most of the aspects of the systems.


I looked into the various ways of getting the water jacket and into the house.  


You can run it into either a heat exchanger (I used a radiator out of a 1986 Nissan Sentra) and run it like a conventional forced air furnace.  


You can run it radiant in-floor, but it's a lot more complicated and expensive to do that way, but it makes for a much more comfortable house as the floor is always warm and the heat is dissipated upwards from there.  Makes for a more natural heating pattern, but not as quick a response time to the thermostat.


You can run it into baseboard heaters.  I immediately turned this idea down as we originally heated with baseboard electrics and the house may have been warm, but the floor was still (literally) freezing cold.


There are other ways, but I won't get into them as they are WAY out there in expense and difficulty of installation on an existing house.


As for the boiler itself, I wouldn't recommend using 55 gallon drums.  The fire in mine can get EXTREMELY hot.  To the point of when I'm burning chopped up pallets, I will actually melt the nails into little puddles.  Mind you, mine is forced draft induction, so the squirrel cage fan on the door can act like bellows on a forge, getting the flames  almost white hot in there.  I've gotten it hot enough to warp the inner panel on the door, which is 3/16" steel.  But in any case, if you're even the slightest bit low on water in the water jacket, the exposed steel at the top of the firebox will get VERY hot, and the thin walls of a 55 gallon drum won't last long at all if you get any sort of creosote build up and it burns off.


Transverse heat tubes help considerably when trying to extract as much heat as possible out of the fire into the water.  And a minimum of a 3 foot diameter firebox is a must if you're using chopped wood as fuel.  Trust me, it's not worthwhile to go any smaller than a 36" diameter and less than 3 feet front to back on these.  You really don't want ot be going out there three or four times a day to reload them.  And they are HUNGRY.  I go through a pickup truck load of oak a week at times.  They are definately not the most efficient form of wood heating, but it is SO nice not to have to drag nasty firewood inside the house and worry about what kind of critters are in it.  It's also nice not to have to worry about the house catching on fire if something falls or gets knocked over onto a standard indoor fireplace.  Also not having to worry about creosote buildup in the chimney is a nice feature, too.  Most outdoor furnaces have a chimney length of 36", so creosote isn't a concern at all.  The chances of your heat source causing a fire in your house are pretty much zero.  The hottest the water coming into the house can get of course is a little over 210 degrees Fahrenheit, because any hotter and it flashes to steam, which the water pump won't move.


These systems aren't great when it comes to heating a very small house, as they tend to let the fire go out before you extract enough BTU's from the water to warrant the fire being stoked again.  You want to ideally keep the water between 170F and 180F.  My system is one of the smaller ones and it has 150 gallons of water in the boiler alone.  It takes a while for it to heat up if the fire goes out and we're asleep.  But they are ideal if you have a 2,500 sq ft house, a garage/shop, you use a water to water heat exchanger to heat your potable hot water, and pipe it under the porch for easy snow/ice removal.  Then it becomes MUCH more economical to use.  For me, I have an ANCIENT house in northern Minnesota where for 6 months of the year we are below zero F.  I probably lose around 50-60K BTU's an hour out of this house when there's no wind.  So I can suck enough out of the boiler to keep it lit.  But if this place was well insulated (which would cost me several thousand dollars I don't have), I'd probably spend more time lighting the thing than I would resupplying it with wood.


If you have any more questions, please e-mail me as I tend to not check in here all that often.  darrin(dot)moore(at)gmail(dot)com

« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 04:59:16 PM by nanotech »