Author Topic: Picking a PMDC motor to use  (Read 1334 times)

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umeme

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Picking a PMDC motor to use
« on: January 08, 2009, 08:43:19 AM »
Hullo all,


I have read (and searched a lot on this board) as much info as possible on use of pmdc motors (like the fabled ameteks) as wind turbine generators. I have never built a turbine and am looking at learning using the pmdc motors before attempting the more complicated projects.


What I would like to know is; when picking a suitable pmdc motor to use, what values should I look for. I think I read to get the largest rated voltage with the lowest rated speed with no gearing.


It seems straight forward until I saw motors having additional specs like no load speed, rated speed, rated current, rated power and rated torque. Should I ignore all values other than speed and voltage?


Perhaps this should be added to the FAQ section.


Thanks

« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 08:43:19 AM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: Picking a PMDC motor to use
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2009, 02:25:34 AM »
There is no simple answer to this. What you are looking for probably doesn't exist.


The ideal thing would be a pm dc generator with cut in speed below 200 rpm amd a maximum output of at least 20A at something like 600 rpm.


In real life there are very few pm dc generators available and there would be no market for one of this spec except for wind power. You then have to look to motors, which are more readily available. Again very low speed 12v motors hardly exist ( nobody wants them). You are then forced to try and adapt some form of motor that someone makes for a need that exists.


Probably the most versatile things are servomotors, that are typically reasonably low voltage and can carry short time currents of many amps. New they cost the earth, but surplus they only have scrap value until somebody finds a market to satisfy fools building toy windmills.


The Amteks are basically the lowest grade of servomotor and if you find the right ones they do fairly well. They are all higher voltage and higher speed than the ideal device.


You have to realise that if something generates 150v at 2000rpm it will generate 15v at 200rpm. Even that is confused by the fact that the speed quoted will be under normal working conditions as a motor, not a generator.


You also have to realise that the current will be limited to the maximum current as a motor. If it can only handle 3A at 150v then it will only handle 3A at 15v so the power rating is reduced to 1/10. Most motors will take a fair overload short term and with the wind blowing on it you may be able to push that 3A motor to perhaps 10A for wind duty but the efficiency will be low and the long term survival may be limited.


Information quoted may be confusing if not actually wrong and the quoted data is not always sufficient to make an intelligent choice but given lots of experience you can sometimes make a reasonable guess. Don't forget you have to consider your prop size when selecting cut in speed and maximum current handling.


Best stick to things that have been tried and found to work, some Amteks are better suited than others ( look what others have used). Treadmill motors have been used with some success but there is a lot of junk available that will be of no real use and someone will try very hard to convince you it is perfect and try to charge 20 times scrap value for it.


You need also to use blades that have proved suitable for the type of motor, pvc blades need much slower motors than wooden ones or perhaps Jerry's blades.


The whole thing is a minefield of disasters waiting to happen. When you could get a surplus motor for scrap price there was little to loose but when I see some of the junk on ebay for more than a commercial wind turbine I say "buyer beware".


At best these little dc motor things are only going to supply modest loads in good wind areas. Don't expect much and don't pay much and you will not be disappointed but unless you can find a motor cheap it may be better to consider an alternator designed for wind power, they are not very cheap but may be better value for money than a useless dc motor at a scam price.


Flux

« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 02:25:34 AM by Flux »

umeme

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Re: Picking a PMDC motor to use
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2009, 04:13:43 AM »
Thank you.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 04:13:43 AM by umeme »

ghurd

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Re: Picking a PMDC motor to use
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2009, 06:56:20 AM »
And the cheap / common / automotive type motors may not begin to keep up with the math.

I have one with thick 'plastic' magnets.  Something like those flexible fridge magnets.  Couple thousand RPMs barely hits 12V open.  No way it would make 1/4A Isc.

It was rated 48V and 2A.


Like Flux said. Don't pay much and don't expect much.

G-

« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 06:56:20 AM by ghurd »
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fanman

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Re: Picking a PMDC motor to use
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2009, 07:33:22 AM »
good mornin umeme,

ive found alot of nice pm dc motors in the clark floor cleaning machines, they are uasually 32 volt and less than 300 rpms and 20 amps or so, ive made many small gens out of them, have a good day
« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 07:33:22 AM by fanman »

CmeBREW

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Re: Picking a PMDC motor to use
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2009, 03:08:45 PM »
Hello,    

      For a starting project and/or back-up generator I would forget DC (brush)PM motors and get an AC (brushless/no cogging) 3-phase servomotor (as 3-phase Alternator) like these 3 on ebay: (These are stronger than the one I have)


http://cgi.ebay.com/Yaskawa-AC-Servo-Motor-USAGED-20A22K-1500-RPM-19A_W0QQitemZ180320393095QQcmdZVie
wItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item180320393095&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%
7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50


These are 3-phase- so should be between 208vac-240vac rated.

No cogging start-offs and Nice low 12v cut-in somewhere around 100-160rpm or so, and great for 6'-7' diameter mill.

(possibly could make 300watts max/ 20Amps or so)


3 of the 4 big pins on the top will be the 3 (3-phase) wires that simply hook to your own bridge rectifiers and then to the batteries -- and your good to go.

I think these are at least twice as good as any Ametek motor.  Just can't be afraid of the weight.  Even though there used, I think the price is worth it.

« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 03:08:45 PM by CmeBREW »

CmeBREW

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Re: Picking a PMDC motor to use
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2009, 10:28:39 AM »
The "D" in the serial code shows it is FERRITE magnets inside, not neo mags.


The manufacturer website has the whole book on these to see.  Looks to be 200vac max  rated- so 12v cut-in somewhere around 120-160rpm which is good.

Not sure now if it would do 20 amps though. I don't see any brake on it. Read the manual.      

« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 10:28:39 AM by CmeBREW »