Author Topic: An Epiphany  (Read 399 times)

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finnsawyer

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An Epiphany
« on: October 08, 2004, 10:06:11 AM »
It was green with a nice picture of a maple leaf.  It said "Investing in a greener tomorrow is the right thing to do today".  The power company invited people to send them $4.00 each month to help offset the cost of 100 kwhr of renewable energy.  "Wow!", I thought, "do people really do this?  Do they really send money to a large amorphous corporation without any kind of accountability?"  That would be an act of faith, almost a religious experience.  They don't get anything for their money except a good feeling.  Now, if they are ready to do this simply in the hope of building more of existing technology, one would expect they would be willing to help fund new technology for the same feel good reasons.  So, here's my proposal.  If enough people are willing to commit to a payment of $4.00 per month for two to ten years, I will undertake the development of a new type of wind power system.  Let it begin here.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2004, 10:06:11 AM by (unknown) »

RatOmeter

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2004, 10:20:25 AM »
Yeah, some people might pay that $4.00, especially if they knew what type of RE it was (like if the city/power company was bankrolling a PV setup).  Not knowing any other details, my gut feeling is that requesting customers to help foot the bill for a measley 100 kW-hr is goofy (unless it's PV).  It is kind of like voluntarily paying extra per kW-hr to 'use' RE generated power such as from wind farms.


Well, I guess it doesn't hurt to ask.  I hereby request everyone to send me money bankroll my RE plans, if you want to.  Maybe if we all send each other money we'll break even ;)

« Last Edit: October 08, 2004, 10:20:25 AM by RatOmeter »

windstuffnow

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2004, 10:22:21 AM »
  fin,

   I recieved something similar to this in my electric bill.  The difference being, they were offering "green energy".   The catch was If I wanted this "green energy" it would cost me my normal electric costs, plus that amount again (basically 2 x what my normal bill was).  Wow! Now there is an incentive to go to a cleaner energy!   I figure I can spend the same money and do it my self and have a much better satisfaction in what I've done.   Since there is only one wind farm (that I know of) in Michigan I'd be willing to bet their going to charge you double for conventional electric and "say" its "green".   Now on the other hand if they came out and errected a large turbine in my back yard and connected to my house (proving it really came from a "green" source then that may be a different story, but still not for twice the price.   Michigan has little to no incentives for changing over, adding solar/wind to your home so if you decide to do it, your on your own.  I'm sure many other states are the same.


Have Fun

Windstuff Ed


   

« Last Edit: October 08, 2004, 10:22:21 AM by windstuffnow »
Windstuff Ed

finnsawyer

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2004, 10:41:54 AM »
Although I live in Michigan, the power company is based in Wisconsin.  Maybe they have windmills on the Door Peninsula.  They claim one windmill can provide the power for 225 homes.  Looks like your power company wants you and 224 other customers to make the payments for the windmill.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2004, 10:41:54 AM by finnsawyer »

finnsawyer

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2004, 10:43:56 AM »
They say wind power and biomass.  Otherwise it's pretty vague.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2004, 10:43:56 AM by finnsawyer »

ghurd

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2004, 10:57:58 AM »
Ohio's big incentive is to not charge sales tax! At least right away.


 BUT. First you have to prove (with state approved engineers) it will be used to replace a more conventional system. Apply for the exemption. Install it. Have it inspected with the state guys. Finish the paperwork. Not pay the tax, yet. (I left out several steps) The installer has to pay the enginers to come from the capital.


 Then once a year fill out the papers again, or pay the sales tax.


I tried to get a Blanket Exemption, because almost everything I do is replacing 5hp Hondas and car alternators, with solar panels. That shouldn't take too many enginers. No go.


The guy in charge of all this at the capitol says this is only pertenant for Multi-Million dollar systems, given the 10s of thousands it costs to get the exemption.


Yea. That helps.


Also, PV can't be figured into property values for property tax.

wow. That helps, too.


G-

« Last Edit: October 08, 2004, 10:57:58 AM by ghurd »
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Gary D

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2004, 11:27:59 AM »
In deregulated Pa., it costs a few cents more for green energy. The production itself may be double, but that's just a small part of our bill. Distribution for example is the same price.

 However thare was a backdoor increase lawmakers allowed starting this year for private electric companies, green or not. They can and are charging individual homeowners to trim or remove trees from their right of ways! With the option of an easy monthly payment plan( at the end of the 4 year plan you'd need the trees trimmed again). Gotta make every subsiduary of the private power company profitable! Hmmm. Kinda off the subject tho... wonder if any other states allow this garbage to happen? Would hate to have a couple miles of woods road frontage in an area that a private power company controls! I'd love to see people sue to recind their rights of way!Gary D.  
« Last Edit: October 08, 2004, 11:27:59 AM by Gary D »

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2004, 12:43:16 PM »
Folks do it here in Fort Collins too.....they volunteer to pay more per kw/hr for promoting renewable energy. The catch is, the power company (Excel) is required by law to put up more wind turbines whenever the kw/hrs paid for at the higher rate exceed what their existing wind turbines are putting out. Colorado State gave kids in the dorms the option to do that this year, and their sign-up rate has been excellent too. Lots of businesses do it, so they can advertise that their facilities are "wind powered."

DANF
« Last Edit: October 08, 2004, 12:43:16 PM by ADMIN »

RatOmeter

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2004, 01:10:38 PM »
Finally, an example of good lawmaking!
« Last Edit: October 08, 2004, 01:10:38 PM by RatOmeter »

MelTx

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2004, 01:53:27 PM »


  Hello In Tx they hook ekg machines to your head while you sleep,and if we even dream of making R.E. of any kind,we are arrested and sentenced to 16 years in the electric chair....All mister bush and his muder-for-oil gang want do, is drill more wells he dont know they are running low.Please give him 4 more years, maybe he will see the light soon.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2004, 01:53:27 PM by MelTx »

chux0r

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2004, 02:00:29 PM »
Yup.  Here in Upstate NY (Niagara Mohawk) they're offering 'green power' from various suppliers, using wind, small hydro, and biomass.  The additional cost ranges from 0.01 to 0.02 per kWh.  Very reasonable.


You're witnessing one of the good effects of deregulation.  Your power distribution company doesn't get paid for production, only distribution.  Since RE usually takes more distribution (gotta take the power from where it is, to where you want it), if people are willing to pay a bit more, then they win, and RE wins.


Now I see wind farms on my way from Albany to Rochester, so I know our sources are local.  If you're living in an area where it's more difficult to get RE, I can understand the distribution cost being 2x.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2004, 02:00:29 PM by chux0r »

troy

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2004, 02:02:02 PM »
Lots of companies are getting very green in the advertising dept.  Not many companies are actually changing the way they do business.  That's my cynical take on their insert.  


On the other hand, at least they are aware that there is an environment and that people might care what they do to it.  So I guess that's progress.  And once they take a stand, it's fun to start asking them technical questions in public forums and watch them squirm around.  Once the general population gets a little savy about what environmentally responsible energy production and use actually looks like, the companies will get lots of good questions.


Good luck and have fun.


troy


ps, hope your fundraising efforts go well, as I trust you to do a better job with the money than the utility co.


tr

« Last Edit: October 08, 2004, 02:02:02 PM by troy »

ghurd

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2004, 04:24:29 PM »
My folks power lines are over 20 feet up. My Mom plants big fruit and ornimential trees every couple years. The kind that only get 10-15' high. The first year they produce any fruit or flowers, the power company cuts them down. Talk about pissed!


They manage to leave a major stump to mow around. Now Dad is pissed!


The 'chain-saw-guys', as they have come to be known, always come when Mom is not home. Lucky for them. She has Lawers and Guns! And knows how to use both with either hand! I pitty the sucker who won't back down from the threat of just a lawer. He'll need a new truck! (see 'gun', above).


She calls every time, and gets a 'sorry' every time. They even paid for the trees once. I woder if she mentioned the gu... Uhh... Never mind... That's my Mom.


Mom gets the mail, 75 yards, 6 inches of snow, and barefoot. No kidding!


G-

« Last Edit: October 08, 2004, 04:24:29 PM by ghurd »
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devoncloud

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2004, 06:56:18 PM »
hey, I am from Texas too, and the only reason why I would say vote for the bastard (Bush) is so he does not come home!!!!!!!  Oh wait, he moved the whitehouse down here, didn't he? ;)


Devon

« Last Edit: October 08, 2004, 06:56:18 PM by devoncloud »

BrianK

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2004, 07:36:11 PM »
Heck I will settle for a dollar from all who will donate!!!!!!!!!!!!


sorry couldn't help it


     

« Last Edit: October 08, 2004, 07:36:11 PM by BrianK »

finnsawyer

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2004, 08:44:09 AM »
Thanks to everyone that contributed.  Considering all the different plans mentioned, I guess the bottom line is to make sure where your money is going.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2004, 08:44:09 AM by finnsawyer »

BT Humble

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2004, 06:50:58 PM »


hey, I am from Texas too, and the only reason why I would say vote for the bastard (Bush) is so he does not come home!!!!!!!  Oh wait, he moved the whitehouse down here, didn't he? ;)


Oh, so your guy was elected leader of his nation and refused to uproot his family to the national capital too, eh?


For the record, in last weekend's election here in Australia I did NOT vote for John Howard, or anyone either in or affiliated with his party.


BTH

« Last Edit: October 10, 2004, 06:50:58 PM by BT Humble »

Gibby

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2004, 07:08:32 PM »
This exchange made me laugh


the thought of an electric company slicing in a bit of electricity from the wind farm that is programmed somehow to jump off the main wire and head towards a patrons house who is paying an extra .02 cents per kWh is a bit...  well.. ridiculous, but funny.


So no, our electricity isn't guaranteed to be green.  I wander who is getting our green electricity that we paid extra for?

« Last Edit: October 11, 2004, 07:08:32 PM by Gibby »

nothing to lose

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2004, 10:40:59 AM »
Any way you look at it it's all bull to pay more for it!!


First if the wind or sun is producing the power then it's free to them except for the equipment. Compare that to burning a ton of coal everyday or gas or other methodes to produce the electric where they have to pay for the fuel. And all those other methodes have to be built also, so they cost more than just the fuel they burn!!


As for where it's located another bull! We saw how close the grid is to home when half the north east US lost power a year or two ago! I do not live up that way and was not effected by that myself and forgot excatly which states it was.

What was that, Canada, WI, Ill, Ind, Ohio, Ny, ect... all on the same grid network that went down. Now you mean it costs more to put up RE in those areas and pipe it to some-ones house?? They are already piping it 1,000s of miles on the grid. One big circle,  One bad switch and it all goes down to prove it, and they did flip that switch!!

 So they can use that same grid to pipe any RE energy also at no extra costs other than connecting it. So that's no more cost than connecting another coal fired plant!


 It's all just a scam, just like donating a car to most charities that ask for them and offer you a tax receipt! Another SCAM!! Most do not repair or sell the cars or use them for any purpose like training people for skills. NO, they sell them off to polution producing companies that can then produce MORE polution LEGALLY!!

 Yes, that's a little known fact that is true!!

 If a large corperation is producing too much polution and is required to install expensive equipment to cut the polution or face heavy fines they can get POLUTION CREDITS by buying cars and destroying them! It's figured over so many years that car would have produced so much polution so by destroying the car the polution was not created so the CORP can create it instead!!

So YA, some charity collects 200 junks cars that were sitting unused creating no polution and sells those cars to a Power plant which destroys them as needed for polution credits, then they produce the polution those 200 cars would have produced if they had actually been being used. They are not required to clean up their act at all untill they are creating more polution than they can get in credits.


 Talk about a SCAM on the public!! And most people donating cars think they are doing something worthwhile like helping people learn skills like autorepair and then the cars are sold for a decent price which then helps the charity with needed money.

 Ask direct questions about it and either get NO answers or LIES about what is being done with the cars most the time also!!


 I am not certain but I "THINK" that's what the famous BOY HOME/FARM/ or whatever it was called up there in WI was doing when I lived there. They were advertising donate your cars for tax credits and help them out type of thing. Well I had a nice collecter car that needed just a little work, I thought about donateting it to them but when I started asking question the only answer I could get was "Oh we don't fix anything" and no further info. From their advertising it was my understanding the donated cars were being used to teach the boys skills in repairs for a usefull trade/carreer and then sold off as decent cars again. BUT when I asked I was told that was not the case and I could never get ANY answer what was going to be done with my car, so they never got it!!


 Another place I had thought about donating a couple cars to one time when moving cross country was the same thing. Athough they supposedly are famous for helping handicaped/underprivalaged people to learn new skills, they were asking for car donations but do not repair or resell them! Hmmm, then I wonder just what they do with them then, they don't drive them, repair them, or sell them. Obviously they collect them to sell to Polution Corps for polution credits!!! But will they tell you that, no way!!


 So would I pay extra for green power? Hell NO!! Just another scam!!!

Just put the money into making my own, then I got green power and FREE TOO!!

« Last Edit: October 12, 2004, 10:40:59 AM by nothing to lose »

finnsawyer

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2004, 09:49:45 AM »
I really don't understand your complaint.  Presumably, if one donates to a charity, one believes in what they are doing.  The charity sells the car which helps that goal.  The power company trashes the car and gets it off the road.  Since older cars polluted more than newer ones that reduces net pollution.  Seems like everyone wins.  I think you just want to force the power companies to reduce pollution irrespective of cost.  Do you have a patent on a method to reduce sulfur and mercury emissions?  Here in Michigan people are up in arms about EPA rules that require drastic actions to reduce pollution that blows in from elsewhere.  I get uneasy when I see the power of the state coming in with a big hammer.  These trade offs may make more sense in the long run.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2004, 09:49:45 AM by finnsawyer »

nothing to lose

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2004, 09:42:12 PM »
"I really don't understand your complaint.  Presumably, if one donates to a charity, one believes in what they are doing.  The charity sells the car which helps that goal.  The power company trashes the car and gets it off the road.  Since older cars polluted more than newer ones that reduces net pollution.  Seems like everyone wins.  I think you just want to force the power companies to reduce pollution irrespective of cost.  Do you have a patent on a method to reduce sulfur and mercury emissions?  Here in Michigan people are up in arms about EPA rules that require drastic actions to reduce pollution that blows in from elsewhere.  I get uneasy when I see the power of the state coming in with a big hammer.  These trade offs may make more sense in the long run.

GeoM"


Well to answer that and I mean to be nice about it too.

It's when they put on a false pretense and refuse to answer questions that I have a problem with them. If they act as if they are going to teach a person a skill then sell the car for a reasonable amount and use that money to further their goals, I support them DOING THAT, but to act like that is what they are going to do, then scrap the cars for a few bucks or whatever is NOT what I support! Or if they say that is what they are doing honestly and openly with out the false pretense involved then I would support that maybe. Most likely I'd keep the car and give em money instead though.


Many of these older cars ARE NOT creating polution because they are not being used, or they are seldom used. Also when I need parts for my classic hot rods and have to buy new parts, polution is made producing those new parts, so it's a double whammy. Cars not creating polution are destroyed so some Corp CAN produce that polution, and parts for cars are being made new because used parts are not as available. Not that big a problem, but it does exist also. And besides that, how much polution was created making your new car for the lower emisions you have? It's back to the same old thing, is it worthwhile to pay 3 times the money for a car to use half as much gas and then pay high repair bills when it breaks? Sorta the same thing here, your taking a seldom used car and creating polution to destroy it, poplution to build a new one and the polution the new one creates since it will be driven much more often and longer trips, PLUS the CORP gets to mauch all the polution the old car supposedly would have made.


And your kinda contradicting yourself there. MI is right across the lake from WI and you say something about polution blowing in from other areas? Well maybe if the old cars sat unused and the Corps did not get the credits to alough them to produce all that extra polution you would not have to worry about cleaning it up when it blows in!! So no, not everyone wins, you just lost! And did that trade off make sense to you now since your state has to clean it up??


As for the polution, I don't care that much about it, it's not the fact they are aloughed to make it, it's the scam involved to be aloughed that I was talking about.

 Sure I'd like a cleaner place to live too I geuss, but I'm not a nut about it. I know it's a trade off, have life as we know it, or live in a cave in the dark!

I mean even building windmills creates polution! Those parts had to be made somewhere, the inverters, the batteries, ect....


Anyway, what I was saying is I think it's just another scam by the power companies when they want more money for green power and I was using that scam as an example of some of the crap that gets pulled.

 I donate to alot of charities at times and will be founding my own before long if all goes well, but I'll never donate a car unless I am told exactly what is gonna be done with it now. And I would never give a power company a dime more than my bill!!

 Use that money to buy energy effieceint stuff for your house and benefit twice instead! You use less power so save money on your bill, and they can produce less since your not buying it!! That's much better than giving them extra money for nothing on their claim they will use it for green power production. Just think if everyone spent $4 a month for flouresent lights instead of giving it to the power company for nothing! Then each month power comsumtion goes down alittle more as more lights are replaced! In 12 months you replace 12 bulbs and that's 12 bulbs a month saving power for a long long time! Or save up 3 months and buy a $12 light! Far better!!

  My  main reasons for trying to go wind power. Stop paying the electric company at all, and reliable power since this little outfit here has alot of problems.

 It may cost me more in the long run, but look what I save in UPS systems alone! I need one for each computer, TV/vcr/DVd clock, and other stuff. Less polution is nice too, but not much thought on that here really.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2004, 09:42:12 PM by nothing to lose »

finnsawyer

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2004, 10:32:07 AM »
For the record Lower Michigan is east of Wisconsin.  Prevailing winds bring Wisconsin's pollution over Lower Michigan.  Michigan's goes elsewhere.  Anyway I live in the Upper Peninsula north of Wisconsin.  No sympathy on the hot rods.  If you want to play with them pay the price.  A similar situation exists for old farm and construction equipment.  In many cases you can't find used parts due to original design flaws.  And nobody is willing to pay the cost of new parts.  Guess what happens?


I don't like scams any better than you.  (What really goes on at Good Will?)  How many outfits are really up front and honest?  My understanding is that a lot of vehicles stay on the roads a lot longer than they should.  Also, most of the donated ones are still is reasonable condition.  So I don't know if your conclusions are correct in the aggregate.  Your personal experience is just your personal experience.


I tried a florescent bulb in place of a 100 watt incandescent once.  Cost considerably more, lasted no longer.  No money saved.  End of trial.  If I buy a florescent bulb I expect it last five years, not less than a year.


Not far from where I live, my township is in the process of paying serious bucks to tear down a dam and destroy the impoundment lake behind it.  This was built originally to provide water for a copper stamping mill.  Here's a case where a new dam could be be built to provide some non-polluting power with no net change in the environment.  Of course these impoundment lakes have the habit of silting up over time.  Also, hydro is out of favor.


Where I live we get a lot of wind.  Still grid power is so cheap that wind is just not economical.  At least on my scale.  Still, if I wasn't interested in it I wouldn't be haunting this board.  You know, it would help a lot if the power company was required to pay a rate for wind power that was close to what they charge for power.  Say six cents per kwhr instead of three. Thanks for your comments.  Have a nice day.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2004, 10:32:07 AM by finnsawyer »

skravlinge

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2004, 12:20:09 PM »
In Sweden there I live, you have to pay extra "greenfee" for all electric use, money to be used for pay to those investing in green energi. Not only to companies,

if I set up solarheating for tapwater and the system conform with the standards , I get about $1000  paid.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2004, 12:20:09 PM by skravlinge »

finnsawyer

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2004, 09:17:52 AM »
My original response to this comment has been lost.  I'd just like to say that if a program existed here to pay me a grand a year for alternate energy, I'd very likely be willing to invest ten times that in a wind power system either by buying a proven system or by developing some ideas I have.  I'm sure it would give a substantial boost to alternate energy production on a small scale.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2004, 09:17:52 AM by finnsawyer »

juiced

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2004, 06:27:56 PM »
We just have to be EXTREMLY carefull that we remain in control of what we own and/or build.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 06:27:56 PM by juiced »

finnsawyer

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Re: An Epiphany
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2004, 10:11:04 AM »
In that case hide it from the tax man.  The power to tax is the power to destroy!  As we have found out in the past the government/people can seize any property they want under the right (actually wrong) conditions.  How do we keep the mass of the people from deciding that there is to be no more private property?  Currently we're facing just that in increments with all these environmental laws.  Not to mention building codes.  I've been told, for instance, that around here one can no longer use eastern hemlock for load bearing walls, which is ridiculous.  Also, all building lumber must be graded even if it comes from your own property.  So, how are we in control?  
« Last Edit: November 06, 2004, 10:11:04 AM by finnsawyer »