Author Topic: corrugated backing or not?  (Read 1138 times)

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windyknight

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corrugated backing or not?
« on: November 18, 2005, 09:09:18 PM »






Been given a big piece of double glazing, so thought I'd build a box, put in the insulation and copper tubes, and seal it with the glass but I cant decide if extra surface area from iron good or not.

Originally i had thought of covering iron with reflective foil to sort of focus heat onto  pipe in each groove but then decided it would maybe just reflect mostly out of box! (also would aluminium react with copper when hot?)

So; is it better to use iron or should i just put copper onto black painted insulation (or suspend just above)?

Also, how best to deal with condensation?

and finally, can 'special' black paint be bought by diy ers?

Thanks
« Last Edit: November 18, 2005, 09:09:18 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: corrugated backing or not?
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2005, 04:18:03 PM »
The usual thing to do is just get some sheet copper, solder it to the pipes, and paint that, and the pipes, flat black.  Then set it loosely in the box and insulate the box any handy way.


Originally i had thought of covering iron with reflective foil to sort of focus heat onto pipe in each groove but then decided it would maybe just reflect mostly out of box!


Why bother?  A little foil or shiny aluminum or chrome plate around the sides bounces any off-angle light onto the black copper sheet as well.  All you need to do is get the light absorbed once by the black stuff.


Once the light is absorbed it re-radiates in the near infrared and the glass bounces essentially all of it back to be re-absorbed.  So the only way out for most of the heat is conduction through the glass (doulbe-glazed), the box walls (heavily insulated) or the coolant in the pipes (what you want).


When you're just after the heat a black-plate collector is very efficient.  Focusing elements are for when you want high (above boiling point) temperatures as well - say for powering heat engines, or making process steam for cooking.  At hot water / air heating temperatures they're a lot of work for no gain.


would aluminium react with copper when hot?


Aluminum or iron would react with copper when WET.  And you'll get some moisture in there.  So it's good to keep it all one metal.


Another problem is differential expansion.  This stuff is going to get really hot in the day and cool off at night.  If you use different metals with different expansion coefficients it's going to bend - very strongly.  This might actually make it break out through the window or break the box apart if you didn't give it enough room.


Copper conducts heat very well, and takes solder well (which also conducts heat).  And solder/copper doesn't tend to break from temperature cycling - as long as it stays below the solder's softening point, which is far above boiling.  So the copper-pipe/copper-plate system is good.


Your pipes look kinda fat.  Good if you are going to place this below the heat storage tank and depend on convection rather than a pump to circulate the fluid.  But if you're going to use a pump you might want to think about using smaller pipes in your next model to save some bux.  Water (and water-based coolants) carry a LOT of heat with a little flow.


Also:  If you're not going to pressurize the system (for instance, by hooking it directly into your hot water plumbing) or let it freeze, you might get away with refrigeration tubing rather than water pipe, for another saving.

« Last Edit: November 18, 2005, 04:18:03 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

maker of toys

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Re: corrugated backing or not?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2005, 07:41:12 PM »
I had a coastguardie tell me once that the easiest way to sink an aluminum boat was to drop a handfull of pennies in the bilge and wait a week. I've been shocked in a swimming pool by a copper pipe; the aluminum ladder across the pool was pretty much lace.


galvanized iron has very much the same problem with copper, and the zinc goes away so fast that it doesn't help.


-Dan

« Last Edit: November 18, 2005, 07:41:12 PM by maker of toys »

windyknight

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Re: corrugated backing or not?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2005, 12:52:34 AM »
I was thinking that a good 2 or 3 coat paint job would save me

keith
« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 12:52:34 AM by windyknight »

windyknight

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Re: corrugated backing or not?
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2005, 01:24:20 AM »
Good answers, very well put -thanks.  

The pipe size ;- I took from earlier posts (half inch copper verticals to 3 quarter manifolds top and bottom) so i'm ticked to hear you on this as i had loads of 10mm but thought it too small!

On reflection though, I have to take the water some 15mts to the tank and bigger volumes mean lower temps in transit, which should i think reduce heat loss on the way to the tank - even tho' pipes insulated

How do (or should) i balance need for ventilation to reduce condensation with heat retention?

Can I sound you out on this as well - planning rules here wont let me site on roof so i have to be at ground level with solar collector, which is slightly lower than tank.  HOWEVER, to get to the tank i have no option but to go over the top of an in-between wall so, my question is, if i can completely purge system of air, will i get a thermosyphon effect? My gut feel is that i should even if both were at same level.

My system is an indirect one, i intend to use a redundant coil in the tank so what's cheapest copper friendly anti-freeze for the solar 'loop'? (system will stay 'live' all year round)

Regards

keith

« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 01:24:20 AM by windyknight »

RP

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Re: corrugated backing or not?
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2005, 07:41:50 PM »
A few thoughts:


  1.  I think you'll be surprised at how little volume your system holds.  2-gallons of automotive green stuff mixed 50% with water will go a long way.
  2.  Look into RV antifreeze.  As I recall its based on polypropylene glycol and is non-toxic.
  3.  Don't forget to include an expansion tank.  that water will expand when hot and with a closed system you'll get leaks from hydraulic pressure.
  4.  I'm concerned about the thermo siphon over a wall.   Any air will accumulate at the highest point and break the siphon.  Remember that a certain amount of air is dissolved in the water and will bubble out over time.  If you cannot drill through the wall then consider adding a dead-end riser tee'd into the line at the highest point over the wall and going straight up a few feet.  Any air in the line will rise to the dead-end and out of the flow loop.  You'll need a valve to vent it periodically...


Hope this helps
« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 07:41:50 PM by RP »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: corrugated backing or not?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2005, 12:16:08 AM »
The pipe size ;- I took from earlier posts (half inch copper verticals to 3 quarter manifolds top and bottom) so i'm ticked to hear you on this as i had loads of 10mm but thought it too small!


Sorry, it looked like 1" to me.  Half inch sounds just fine.

« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 12:16:08 AM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »