Author Topic: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response  (Read 6048 times)

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tdmack

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Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« on: February 23, 2007, 04:33:28 AM »
Hello turbine enthusiasts.


At the risk of appearing that we are using this forum to promote our turbine I would like to take an opportunity to clarify a few points.  Before though, I would like to say that I enjoy pouring over the information and topics of discussion on this board.  When I found this forum last year I quickly realized that an induction grid-tie is drastically different then DC turbine also I am impressed by the level of knowledge and skill to be found here.


The first point about our turbine I would like to respond to is the power output statements that we have made and continue to make.  Most of the information on our web site is written for individuals who probably do not have as much understanding of wind power as the folks who participate in discussion here in this forum.  In an effort to make an issue "simple" it would appear to the informed that we are being deceptive when say that Breezy 5.5 will produce 2.1KW at kick-in with a wind speed of 6-8 mph.

Technically: when "Joe, (person interested in our turbine)" steps out on his back porch, raises his handheld wind speed meter and measures 6-8 mph wind speed he can be assured that Breezy will be just starting to cycle in and out of production.  The turbine 60+ feet in the air is seeing approximately twice the wind measured on the ground.  In addition I have programmed the controller to bring the turbine online far into "slip" which allows us it to take advantage of a turbine rotor weighing nearly 175 lbs and the inertia stored in it while the turbine operates in low wind speeds near the threshold of production.  This is also a benefit gained by using the torque limiter in the drive system (and zero-cross interconnect relay).  The power realized at this kick-in speed will be seen as 5 to 6 second bursts of power as the generator extracts the inertia from the turbine followed by 5 to 6 seconds of build up when the turbine is released from the grid at a balanced speed of 1800 rpm and again allowed to climb far into slip.  As the wind speed increases to 9 mph and above there is power enough applied to the rotor to keep the generator above 1800 and continuous power is produced.


I would like to concede that total power produced annually is a hypothetical best case scenario.  The wind speed data is taken from government wind study in our area and is accurate in what it is.  The average is all wind speeds for our area (hour by hour). That means that all wind above 23 mph which will not result in more power output and of course all wind below 6-8 mph will not count at all.  The actual data may be manually extracted hour by hour and compiled for the year to get a realistic picture of the turbines capability.   Since there is pretty much a level playing field for wind turbine output comparisons (wind is wind) we're pretty much left with comparing turbine output per wind speed and density.  


You have seen the pictures posted here by others and on our web site.  If you are unfamiliar with some of the older commercial built induction generators (10 to 50KW) you may not notice the changes we have made.  In our design we have moved the rotor away from the gearbox and placed it on its own large flange bearing.  Almost all previous designs mounted the rotor directly to the gearbox, subjecting the gear box to all the vibration and shock produced by the rotor.  The torque limiter and chain coupling serve to isolate the rotor from the gearbox, provide a slip-point for rotor shock and during shutdown.  The material used in this design is equal to or larger then the 25 KW Carter (one of which still sits on an 80' tower at our test site, broken of course) from the ½" plate frame, 2-1/4" drive shaft, and right down to the 5/8 " steel cables keeping it upright.


Grid-tied induction turbine generators (in my opinion and I am biased) offer many advantages of their own.  Being grid-tied it produces a replica of the sine-wave of which it is drawing as reactive current.  That is, it is generating back exactly what it sees coming from the power company, on frequency, in phase, and at the proper voltage.  And it does it all without inverters or batteries.  Once "locked" to the grid (the generator rotor is magnetically locked to the rotating 60HZ field and resists all force to break it free) the induction generator is the primary control of the stall point of the turbine.  That is, one can control the power produced by the turbine rotor by absolutely fixing the forward speed of the turbine blades (which is done for us automatically) allowing the frontal wind seen by the turbine to stall the rotor at just the point where our generator reaches maximum safe operation.  Farther, the generator is locked to the 60HZ line freq. (or 50HZ) at a speed near 1800rpm, the generator is connected to the turbine rotor through a 14.55 to 1 gear reducer, so... the turbine rotor is (fixed) at a speed near 120 RPM and remains locked at this speed while in operation.


Basically micro-controller really just oversees the operation of the turbine.  First, it controls the brake by releasing it on power-up and applying it if grid connection is lost or there is an over-speed condition detected (129 rpm rotor).  Second, the controller uses a tach signal to energize the interconnect relay when the generator is above 1800 rpm and release the relay if shaft speed falls below 1800.


While Breezy 5.5 may not be indestructible (show us a turbine that is) it is definitely a brute.


The requirements from power companies have varied from none to the same requirements that a large megawatt wind farm might have to meet.   Check with your power company to get and understand their application process. We'll be happy to assist with the process.


Alan and I continue of offer an open invitation to all who wish to see one of the turbines in operation.  You are welcome to bring your own meters, etc.  We only ask is that you call first so that we can schedule your visit.  

« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 04:33:28 AM by (unknown) »

tljones

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2007, 10:32:34 PM »
Actually i am headed to Denver the 3rd week of March and while the wife and inlaws dont know it yet, we are making a detour.... I will be in contact to see if we can set up a time.


If you dont want to reference them here I understand, but can you offer any references to people who have these plans up and running???? Also, what did you have to do liability and quality wise in order to get your machine grid connected?? What would be really great would be if there was a way to get a letter of refernce from your power company with a positive experiance. I would guess tat would carry some weight with another coop....


Thanks for responding here and I hope you do not take my asking the question here as disrespect....  It is actually a high compliment. In my research ( my wife think I have slipped a gear) I was just missing the whole point of the unmodifeied induction motor. I am going to run a compilation of my reaserch past the coordinator at East River Electric and see what he has to say.


I will be in touch soon....


Tom

« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 10:32:34 PM by tljones »

zubbly

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2007, 05:51:40 AM »
hello tdmack,


"Technically: when "Joe, (person interested in our turbine)" steps out on his back porch, raises his handheld wind speed meter and measures 6-8 mph wind speed he can be assured that Breezy will be just starting to cycle in and out of production.  The turbine 60+ feet in the air is seeing approximately twice the wind measured on the ground. "


so why not state that the turbine actually needs 12-16 mph wind in order to get enough speed just to be able to shed the built up inertia of the turbine?


"As the wind speed increases to 9 mph and above there is power enough applied to the rotor to keep the generator above 1800 and continuous power is produced."


assuming this is the same idea as the above statement, do you actually need an 18 mph wind to keep the unit on line continuously?


it looks like you are using SEW EURODRIVE motor and gear box components. SEW, is an excellent product. i have repaired many units and know their product well. however, most gear boxes made for speed reduction in my opinion, are not intended or designed to be backdriven. what does SEW engineering have to say in reguard to life expectancy of their speed reducer being backdriven?


nice looking unit you have designed.  hope it stands the test of time.


zubbly

« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 05:51:40 AM by zubbly »

TomW

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2007, 06:02:00 AM »
Mister Zubbly;


Well said!


T

« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 06:02:00 AM by TomW »

wdyasq

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2007, 06:11:12 AM »
 "The changes in air density (humidity and temperature) will have an

effect on this curve. Basically, hot air has less power then cold air

and dry air has less power then humid air."


Not correcting grammer, just facts. dry air is more dense than humid

air. Check 'Ideal Gas Law' for the reasons.


Ron

« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 06:11:12 AM by wdyasq »
"I like the Honey, but kill the bees"

DanG

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2007, 08:35:16 AM »
For truth in advertising you need to add the word "apparent' before the 6-8mph claim to reference that it is a pedestrian observation not precision measurement - if counsel has approved your statement, a change in counsel seems appropriate since they are employing your literature to ensure a future income stream when you are taken to court.


Can you say 'Class Action' ??

« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 08:35:16 AM by DanG »

vawtman

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2007, 12:28:35 PM »
Hi Tdmack

 During this process of designing this turbine did you ever think of using a axial flux(homebrew)with a UL listed inverter(windyboy for one)?Do you think the power co. would allow this.


 I like the idea of the overdriven motor and thought about it but my turbine(vawt)wont be in clean winds and thinkin it would cycle on and off alot.


 Thanks

« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 12:28:35 PM by vawtman »

tdmack

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2007, 09:36:45 PM »


I am surprised that a group with an obvious eye for detail would overlook the first sentence of our web page "Economics" which has become focus of criticism:        "Figuring wind power with any accuracy involves a great deal more then the figures presented here. The following is represented as a best-case scenario and would be considered optimistic in actuality."   And later the word "hypothetical" within the text.


Also, immediately after:  6-8 mph in the first sentence below the power graph in parenthesis  (gnd spd).   I figured that folks would think that this meant ground speed or didn't realize that they would not know there would be a difference in wind speed at ground level and that at 60',  place those figures in an online wind power calculator and cry foul when the numbers wouldn't work.  Sorry, my mistake.


Zubbly thanks for your reply.  Yes it would be better to give power levels vs. wind speed at rotor height but I wonder if "Joe" has an anemometer at 60', maybe we should provide both.  

NordGear corp. manufactures the gear-motor pictured.   We're using the same motor on our prototype that we started with. It's manufactured for use as a motor, not a generator, so I suppose that could be their out.  If they won't stand behind them we will (providing that rotors are built to spec. and motors obtained from us).  Thanks, Tim


Roland, thanks I stand corrected.


Dan G., "Joe" just finished his turbine.  He spent many weekends working on it and now it's online cranking out power.  He remarks to one of his neighbors, "the kids left the door open, the air-conditioner is running, and the meter is still turning backwards.  I think I'll sue Prairie Turbines".

(Ok, I'll put myself in timeout for that one)

 Actually, there are so many ways that one could be sued these days, I think I'll just stay poor and be a non-target.  Thanks, Tim


Tom, looking forward to you're visit.  Contact us and we'll arrange a time and give you directions.


Thanks everyone...... :)

« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 09:36:45 PM by tdmack »

zubbly

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2007, 04:53:42 AM »
hello again Tim,


first, thanks for your reply.


the intensions of feedback on this board in my opinion is to offer constructive advise, share our knowledge,look for possible problems with someones design and also offer any suggestions that may help.


from the picture of your unit, i would swear it was a SEW motor and gear unit. the founders of Nord were actually people who worked for SEW and left to open their own business (so i am told). basically, Nord's units are almost identical in my opinion. i have repaired both manufacturers.


i took the liberty yesterday to contact one of my old power transmission suppliers in the Toronto area. basically, they are one of Canada's largest and most respected suppliers of various manufacturers of power transmission products. i "posed" a question to them basically about back driving gear boxes. no one's name was mentioned or product make. the "maximum" ratio they suggest any gear drive be back driven is 2 or 3 to 1 ratio. i asked how about back driving a 15:1 ratio, their reply was basically "insane".

this is why in my first reply to your post that i asked what your supplier's opinion was of the unit being back driven with that gear ratio.


my advise, if you wish it, is to do away with the Nord unit (because they have a very small output shaft on the motor, and only their motor will bolt up to their gear box), is to go with another manufacturer that allows a standard NEMA frame motor to be used. this way, you can bolt up any manufacturers motor with a standard NEMA C or D flange motor.


next, have the motor manufacturer use a 72 slot stator (they can do this) and design the motor with 24 poles. they can even use the standard 36 slot stator and wind it to 12 poles.  basically, this will really allow you to lower the gear ration considerably, and allow the unit to work at a more acceptible level.


hope i didn't step on your toe to heavily here, its not my intention, and hope that any of my or anyone elses suggestions may be of help.


lastly, if all the "joe's" out there do build one of your units of this size, i think a wind speed meter at 60 foot is a must have.


zubbly


i respect all the work and effort you have put into your design and wish for everyone's sake that they work out and become a very reliable unit and you have great success.

« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 04:53:42 AM by zubbly »

phil b

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2007, 09:38:19 AM »
If I may ask, How is the generator hooked up to grid power to achieve 60 Hz, sine wave form? Are you using one phase of three phases for grid hookup? Please explain further.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 09:38:19 AM by phil b »
Phil

tdmack

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2007, 09:44:08 AM »
Zubbly


Ok, lets start all over again:  Hi. My name is Tim McCall - 32 years experience as an industrial and consumer electrical/electronics technician- favorite toys as a kid, radio kit- chemistry set- microscope.   My partner (and brother-in-law) Alan Plunkett - last year he built an 80 ton metal shear, just finishing a 14' tapered gantry sawmill . Built both from scratch no drawings.  He always remembers his 10th birthday, that's the year he got his first new cutting torch.  


I guess we feel like those new kids that moved in with that funny looking dog.  


The gearbox  isn't actually a 15:1 gear reduction in 1 single step.  This gearbox does this with steps.  Another thing to think about is that with any motor that has a brake on the back of it is that when running in normal operation "every time the brake is applied the load and prime mover are trading places."  Of course, when applied to our application the motor/or brake is always the load, or should be.


Thanks Tim & Alan

« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 09:44:08 AM by tdmack »

phil b

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2007, 09:47:42 AM »
Sorry, I found the info on your website.

Nice work. Thanks for posting!
« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 09:47:42 AM by phil b »
Phil

paradigmdesign

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2007, 07:01:09 AM »
Quick question, is there a particular reason you went with a 4 blade system over a 3 or even a 2?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2007, 07:01:09 AM by paradigmdesign »

tdmack

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2007, 11:04:10 AM »
The turbine has better start-up and "stay-up" properties with the 4-blade rotor.  Essentially we're getting better performance in this application at low wind speeds.   In addition if in the unfortunate event of a run away there are some "rev-limiting" benefits to be had with more blades.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2007, 11:04:10 AM by tdmack »

vawtman

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2007, 11:13:15 AM »
Yep
« Last Edit: February 25, 2007, 11:13:15 AM by vawtman »

wvuengr04

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2007, 10:17:26 AM »
I am glad to see some activity on induction grid-tie systems on this board. I am interested in avoiding batteries and inverters if possible.


I have a question for the Prairie turbine folks and anyone else who has built a similar turbine. I am interested in designing a 10kw Induction grid tie turbine with aproximately 30 ft diameter rotor. I am wondering if I will run into problems making the blades practical to build for this size turbine?  


Also, Is there anyone else interested in building a machine larger than the prairie turbine?


Howie

« Last Edit: February 28, 2007, 10:17:26 AM by wvuengr04 »

tdmack

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2007, 03:07:28 PM »
Howie


Glad to hear that you want to go induction/grid-tied.  I don't know what you are looking at for rotor control but if you are going to use 30' blades you'll need to be stalling early.  It will be interesting to see how this works out.  As far as materials I would use a design and material that I was comfortable and confident working with until I got the turbine under control.


We plan to begin testing a 10kw version of Breezy this spring.  We'll probably start with a 22' rotor and plan to trim the blades some.  We've always used wood for a variety of reasons.  We can make a set of 4 in a few hours and have them up and testing quickly.  We may have to change tactics on the 10kw machine though.


Tim

« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 03:07:28 PM by tdmack »

paradigmdesign

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2007, 09:56:54 AM »
I just happen to be developing some 14.5' blades(

radius of 15').  I am still working on the plug to make the molds.  There

is a few posts about it on otherpower.com.  

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/1/26/18449/8847.  
« Last Edit: March 04, 2007, 09:56:54 AM by paradigmdesign »

wvuengr04

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2007, 02:28:29 PM »
Tim,


I've been discussing the larger design offline and am interested in persuing a variable slip generator. The traditional way to accomplish this is to have a wound rotor with a variable resistance on the rotor coils or to have a vfd attached to the coils.


From what I understand you essentially have a rotary phase converter and are feeding power into the shaft while its running. I.e. you have capacitors from your single phase(s) to the spare leg.


In a phase converter you end up with different voltages on the generated phase depending on the capacitor sizing.  


Could you end up with an increased slip with either variable capacitance or the addition of some other control hardware in the same place?


I ask this becuase 3 phase squirrel cage motors are prevelant and I haven't been able to find wound rotor motors anywhere. Seems like there should be a way to easily control the motor in this manner.


The induction in the rotor is caused by the coils, so if you have control over one or more coils...


I'd appreciate any comments you have on the subject.


Thanks,


Howie

« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 02:28:29 PM by wvuengr04 »

tdmack

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2007, 07:22:20 AM »
Howie,


I am assuming that you want to increase the performance by varying the slip and in effect changing the load on the rotor to maximize output at lower wind speeds.


The large "megawatt" turbines do something similar with a pole switching technique.  By increasing the number of poles they have in effect reduced the gear ratio.


I tend to like to keep things simple.  Not saying that other methods shouldn't be explored.  


Tim

« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 07:22:20 AM by tdmack »

ebeacham

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2007, 04:50:03 AM »
Tim,

How your larger Breezy coming along?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2007, 04:50:03 AM by ebeacham »

tdmack

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2007, 07:59:58 PM »
ebeacham


It's still plans, pieces, and parts.  We'll be getting started soon.   Since Alan has sentenced his 25KW Carter to death, we'll be using the 80' tower that it has been sitting on for the 10kw testing.    


Tim

« Last Edit: March 13, 2007, 07:59:58 PM by tdmack »

ebeacham

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Re: Breezy 5.5 ? Prairie Turbines response
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2007, 04:26:10 AM »
Thanks Tim,

please keep us posted.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 04:26:10 AM by ebeacham »