Author Topic: Digital PWM loading  (Read 2710 times)

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brokengun

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Digital PWM loading
« on: January 30, 2009, 05:21:14 AM »
I've been discussing a few ideas I've had about the wind turbine controller I am building. It is micro-controller based and I know most of the guys on here don't like to play in the digital world, but that's alright. I'll be heating a small hot water tank (just for supplemental heating this is an experiment). Basically, I my turbine will be outputting only a couple hundred watts max (I know... I know that's not a lot of heat!) and I was wondering if I could pulse a 1500 watt heating element based on how much power the mill was outputting. So I could switch the load up and down marginally with any variation in the wind.


Is it alright to load a turbine like this as long as it is being pulsed on and off fast enough? I am just worried about stalling the machine. I think if I can get some good data and design the controller to stay on a relatively good power curve it should be alright.


Thoughts? Opinions? Also, I'm thinking of using a nice big solid state relay to switch on and off the heating element.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 05:21:14 AM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: Digital PWM loading
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2009, 01:36:43 AM »
You may be able to do what you want but you will need to be very careful.


If the pwm is dead slow ( under 1Hz) then you may stall. If it is faster you probably won't find that an issue.


This is not the same as pwm on a solar panel or a pwm dump load from a battery. Your alternator has inductance ( actual coil inductance, fairly low and leakage inductance, higher in all probability. As soon as you chop an inductive load you get spikes from back emf when you break the circuit. You effectively have the ingredients of a boost converter and unless you take precautions it will be exactly that and the spikes will be very high voltage indeed.


I don't think you can do it with ac unless the frequency is dead slow ( several to 10s of Hz) and you fit snubbers or varistors to catch the spikes but with dc you can filter the rectified dc with a big capacitor and the capacitor can maintain alternator/diode conduction during pulse off.


The ripple in the load current will be high and the switches will have to handle it.


This then will be similar to a pwm dump load and it will work. You could go the whole way and introduce an inductor and freewheel diode and make a true buck converter but the gain may not be worth it with resistive load. You will need the flywheel diode anyway in case there is some residual inductance from the resistors and connecting leads.


If you go for direct chopping of the dc then keep to low frequencies ( under 5kHz). If you go to a true buck converter then you can push the chop frequency right up if your layout can stand it ( above 30kHz layout becomes a big issue).


Flux

« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 01:36:43 AM by (unknown) »

fungus

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Re: Digital PWM loading
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2009, 05:30:51 AM »
Just a thought; would it be possible to just directly connect a dump load/controller to the mill? I've done this a couple times before when just tinkering with my system and it seemed to work well and limit the voltage .. might want to put a big cap in there somewhere though as it was switching on and off very fast ..
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 05:30:51 AM by (unknown) »

wooferhound

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Re: Digital PWM loading
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2009, 06:53:45 AM »
The circuit in this link pretty much does exactly what you are talking about but connects to the battery.

http://ghurd.info/

« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 06:53:45 AM by (unknown) »

brokengun

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Re: Digital PWM loading
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2009, 07:54:43 AM »
I'm trying to avoid using a battery at all if that is possible for me. I think it is doable. Would I be able to replace the battery in that circuit with the voltage from my windmill if I have the DC signal pretty cleaned up? That looks like a pretty useful circuit though, not too bad for the price.


But again, I'm trying to just use a single micro-controller so the whole unit is integrated. So, this would kind of take the place of that. I've got a little LCD which will help me troubleshoot and see my voltage, power, maybe the frequency of the AC, and hopefully how fast the controller is switching at any given time.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 07:54:43 AM by (unknown) »

s4w2099

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Re: Digital PWM loading
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2009, 09:04:34 AM »
I have not experimented with this ever but I would be very careful. My intuition tells me that going too low frequency will stall the mill as Flux said and might also create large voltage spikes if the thing somehow picked up speed. On the oher hand too high frequency might let the mill run free because of reactance in the alternator there will not be enough current flowing to the element thus lightly loaded alternator.




Then if you are in the sweet spot (the middle) then you would have to worry about the boost converter effect. I bet it can be done thought, just be very careful. The easiest way would be to use at least a single battery IMO.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 09:04:34 AM by (unknown) »

(unknown)

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Re: Digital PWM loading
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2009, 10:29:15 AM »
The 1500 watt element you have is rated 1500 watts after it

has come up to temp. I would think its cold resistance

would be 1/10'th of its hot resistance. Get your ohm

meter and test it for sure.


Scott

« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 10:29:15 AM by (unknown) »

tecker

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Re: Digital PWM loading
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2009, 04:03:13 PM »
I posted My the pwm I use now on everything . Pin 4 on the frequency side I turn on to match frequency from a pickup coil which is good because I don't need a transistor sitting on a a down line the coil is good with an mov just match rpm with your turbine and adjust duty cycle or frequency (depending on the charge you need )on the second stage .Here's the circuit

 

« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 04:03:13 PM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: Digital PWM loading
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2009, 08:22:42 AM »
That is certainly true of lamps. I think with conventional heaters the rise of resistance with temperature is much less. Perhaps 2 or 3:1 not 10:1


It won't help the situation but I doubt that it is a killer.


Flux

« Last Edit: January 31, 2009, 08:22:42 AM by (unknown) »

wooferhound

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Re: Digital PWM loading
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2009, 01:49:17 PM »
I have used that Ghurd circuit without a battery before. I just put a very large capacitor on there instead of a battery. I ran my DSL modem off of that for an hour in the full Sun. Worked just fine.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 01:49:17 PM by (unknown) »

Electron Skipper

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Re: Digital PWM loading
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2009, 11:19:01 AM »
Your heating element is going to be a variable resistance.  Unless you are using that specific for heating air or water, or something else, you might have better luck with a more linear resistance from large load resistors.


PWM is the same animal no matter whether AC, or DC is on the input.  When it is used in the way the Ghurd circuit which is similar to most commercial low power voltage controllers; they operate the MOSFeT as the "dump load" that is disipating the load above the set point voltage.


With the basic cautions Flux raises, your plan is very viable.  On the scale of a few hundred Watts designing around IGBT's as your switching devices is still simple.  If you are heating air, you can take advantage of the characteristics of Bipolar transistors (inherent internal resistance) in parallel on a heat sink which will heat the air quite well.  In either situation, double your expected peak current and power loads.  And also bear in mind your mill itself is going to be heating up from the load too.  Is your 1500 Watt heating element enough of a load? Will the mill be able to protect itself from overspeeding in the event of circuit failure?


That 1500 Watt rating is also measured at the potential of the circuit it was originally designed for.  At a lower voltage, it will not be the same.  Think of a toaster element.  Take an average toaster for 120 volts.  On 32 volts, it has a different load on the circuit.  You would need to take the heating elements, and divide them into quarters, and then wire those in parallel to achieve the same performance (ie, wattage) of that toaster when it was on 120 volts.  The non-linearity of the resistance is in this situation unimportant because you are looking at the total peak load.


It would not hurt to see if your element exhibits a negative resistive response as it heats.  


IMHO, if you reworked your physical plan so your heat sink were on the side of the water tank, with air flowing over the semiconductors, and then directed around the water tank or through it, you may have better results.


Alternately, and still an electrical solution:


I don't know if you looked at any of the tech sheets Zetex, National, ON,etc have on the matter of PWM circuits and designs, if you have or have not: look specifically at the Class "D" audio app notes from Zetex and ON and also the automotive switching app notes and you can come up with a fairly simple circuit with the envelope portion of the signal (audio or 60 Hertz)coming from a 555 series IC set up as your 60 hertz source if your miniprocessor is not suitable to generate a signal. You may end up with the best results coming from a bank of switching transistors (MOSFeTs are cheapest by far, and best thermal characteristics)at the potential of the mill output; with the heat sink still attached to the water tank; driving into the primary side of a MOT to get a stepped up potential to supply the heating element.


Inductive spikes on the generator end can be handled with transient supression, and Littlefuse has a number of good tech articles on using MOV's.  Normally you can quench the inductive spikes with a diode, but MOV's are better quench devices if RF noise is a concern for you.


HTH

« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 11:19:01 AM by (unknown) »

benoitdeguffroy

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Re: Digital PWM loading
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2009, 01:56:09 AM »
Hi,


I builded a controller for my own made turbine.

It's running on a small pc which uses only 4watt.

I control voltage, current, wind speed, wind direction.


I also made the turbine with a slew driver 24V. So i don't have a slip ring.

I got 29% more output with this system that is complete controller by the small pc.


It's written in VB6.0 which controls the complete system.

Now i'm building a web server to see and control the system over the www.


regards

benoit

Belgium Europe

« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 01:56:09 AM by (unknown) »