Author Topic: New toy. Newbie. Oscilloscope  (Read 2577 times)

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Volvo farmer

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New toy. Newbie. Oscilloscope
« on: December 12, 2006, 02:18:04 AM »
I burned up some electronic stuff in my house a couple weeks ago while charging the batteries with the generator on my Outback inverter.


I've been over on the Outback forums, and others have had this same problem. Seems the only way to see what's going on is with a scope so I got an old Tektronics (probably from the 1970's?) today from a local guy.


The guy I got the scope from said I might have to use an isolation transformer if I'm going to be measuring from the same power supply I want to measure. Does this sound right?


I am completely new at using an oscilloscope. This thing has little plug in modules at the bottom. One says "time base/ ampl" the other says "dual trace ampl" I have figured out that I need a 10x probe, which luckilly was included.


Can anyone hold my hand enough to help me look at the sine wave of a 120VAC souce using this thing, a 10X probe, and possibly an isolation transformer?


I want to include a big clear pic but since that's not allowed, I'll post a link. It's about 550K but maybe will help someone tell me what knobs and buttons to push to achieve my aim.

http://www.frontier.net/~bobwenn/projects/scope.JPG


Thanks!

« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 02:18:04 AM by (unknown) »
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badmoonryzn

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Re: New toy. Newbie. Oscilloscope
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2006, 08:05:52 PM »
Wow, a free duel trace Tektronics, what a deal. I have the one I purchased in the early eighties from Tektronics and it cost 1800 bucks. It is a small battery powered duel trace that works just fine. I came upon a web site a while back that explained how to use a scope. It seemed OK, however without knowing what you are trying to do with the scope I do not know what to tell ya. They are used to look at waveforms to diagnose failing, good or indifferent devices. There are so many things one can do with one it will be hard to point out anything without knowledge of what waveforms are suppose to look like. I spent many hours in lab to learn these things and it is hard to just say, here do this because the waveforms are like fingerprints, as there are thousands of them. The duel trace allows you to look at two waveforms and compare the two.  Maybe someone knows of a site that has the step by step procedures and lists of waveforms. The book that came with mine gave a few basic steps in howto use the scope. I'll keep my eyes open. Over the years I have gravitated to my Marconi spectrum analyser on the bench because it's colour and its book gives many tests that are built in to the equipment, but I seldom use it unless I have a big problem, and then prices are so cheep I will toss most everything and go buy a new one. Good luck!


moon

« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 08:05:52 PM by (unknown) »

Nando

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Re: New toy. Newbie. Oscilloscope
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2006, 08:06:47 PM »
To tell You what to do, you need to give a good description of what you have and the expected voltages.


The isolation transformer is good for You to have since you are not familiar with grounds between the Scope and the measuring part.


Even more it would be better if you place the isolation transformer in the power cord of the Scope, this way you will have at least 500 to 1000 Volts isolation with all the probes that the scope may have.


If reading 120 Volts AC, set the probe to 10X if it is 1X & 10 X, also make sure that it does not have a ground switch.


Set the Channel to 5 Volts/cm that with the probe it will show 100 V/cm.


Center the Beam to the middle of the screen.( use the vertical Knob)


Set the time to 2 millisecond/div , adjust the beam to start at the left first line ( use the horizontal know)


Set the channel selection to read the one you selected.


Set the trigger to AC.


I can not read the scope photo well so I can not tell you what else to adjust for You to set. I have never used that model, I am familiar with very high frequency > 100 Mhz


Place the Point of the probe to the hot 120 Volts AC and the Ground of the probe to the gound of the AC.


I need to go, so if you need more info send a message


Nando

« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 08:06:47 PM by (unknown) »

hiker

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Re: New toy. Newbie. Oscilloscope
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2006, 08:11:03 PM »
heres a smaller shot.................

« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 08:11:03 PM by (unknown) »
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badmoonryzn

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Re: New toy. Newbie. Oscilloscope
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2006, 12:00:22 AM »
here are some sites that may be of help to learn how to use scopes


www.oscilloscopes-online.info/satellitespectrumanalyzers


www.doctronics.co.uk/scope.htm


physicslearning.colorado.edu/View.asp?Type=Av&Topic=5


www.uncleabdul.com/UAweb12.htm


www.shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm


www.turneraudio.com.au/education+diy.html


Good Luck!


badmoon

« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 12:00:22 AM by (unknown) »

Opera House

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Re: New toy. Newbie. Oscilloscope
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2006, 06:12:46 AM »
Your scope will have a ground and connecting that to the inverter output can mess things up.  Try and find a small 220V to 24V transformer to isolate the signal input.  I would use 220-240V input because with some small cheap transformers the magnetic core may saturate on peaks and distort the waveform.  Generally this isn't much of a problem.  Next you should find a current transformer so you can compare the two signals, voltage and current, for phase angle.  
« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 06:12:46 AM by (unknown) »

alancorey

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Re: New toy. Newbie. Oscilloscope
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2006, 04:03:17 PM »
Scary stuff, 120 volts AC, when you're connecting it to something this sensitive.  Very easy to let out the magic smoke.  By the way, this isn't just dual trace, but dual beam, which is even better.  I think you can put dual timebases in it, or do something like text and signal onsceen at the same time.


Anyway, yes, use the x10 probe for safety.  Then you'll only be seeing 12 volts AC on the output of that.  The probes are designed to not distort the waveform, just sample a small part of it.


If you use an isolation transformer, I'd put it in the power line to the scope.  You don't want it in the signal you're trying to look at because you don't want it doing anything to the waveform.  You may not need one.


One old safety tip from an old Radio Amateur's Handbook with dealing with circuits like this with lots of unknowns is to keep one hand behind your back.  Stand on a rubber mat and/or wear rubber soled shoes at least until you've figured a few things out.  No voltage will hurt you if you're only making contact with one side of it at a time, which is why birds can sit on power lines.


I can't tell from the picture but it looks like the BNC input jacks on the front have insulating washers under them, so they aren't connected to the chassis.  I'd get a trace going across the screen by fiddling with the trigger level, set the vertical sensitivity to 20 volts/div, put on the x10 probe and touch the end of it to what you think is a hot wire.  You should see something change on the screen.  If you don't it may be because the scope ground isn't connected to the signal ground.  Before you connect it try to make sure you aren't going to fry anything by doing it.  There may be some voltage between the two (check with an AC meter or cheap neon test lamp), but no current should flow.  If you see a voltage difference, try something like a small 120 volt light bulb across the two.  It shouldn't light.  There may be some voltage which will go away when you connect them, but if there's current flowing you'll fry something.  If you get current you'll need the isolation transformer.  Plug the scope into it and start over.


One thing to bear in mind is that what you'll see on the scope screen is most easily considered as peak to peak voltage, that is, the distance from the bottom to the top of the waveform.  When most people talk about 120 volts AC, they're usually talking about RMS (root mean square) voltage.  Peak to peak is about 2.8 times RMS.  So 120 VAC RMS should look like 120 * 2.8 = 336 divided by 10 (the probe) = 33.6 which at 20 volts/div would be about 1.7 divisions.  Once everything is under control you can turn up the sensitivity to see the waveform better.  If you're only seeing only half this much and you didn't ground the scope, that could be why.  At 60 HZ you should see one full cycle in 1/60 = 16.67 milliseconds, so 5 milliseconds/div (the 5 over the m) setting should show something useful.


  Alan


RMS

« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 04:03:17 PM by (unknown) »

kitno455

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Re: New toy. Newbie. Oscilloscope
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2006, 06:36:34 PM »
something else to try, just to get the hang of it, is to plug the scope in, hook up the probe, turn it on, and let it warm up. then, just lay the probe in parallel with the power cord of of the scope itself. dont actually connect the probe to anything, just lay them next to each other. with the sensitivity cranked way up (.1 volts/div or less) it will inductively pickup the 60hz from the power line. kinda scary :)


allan

« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 06:36:34 PM by (unknown) »

kitno455

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Re: New toy. Newbie. Oscilloscope
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2006, 06:38:13 PM »
oh, and it will work better if you make a loop of wire and connect the probe tip to its ground lead using the loop. then wave a magnet in front of it :)


allan

« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 06:38:13 PM by (unknown) »

willib

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Re: New toy. Newbie. Oscilloscope
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2006, 07:07:41 PM »
This comes up a lot on other sites" whether to use the ground plug on the scope"

personally i dont use it, having fried the ground lead because i wasnt paying attention.

i just use a Three prong to two prong adapter , allways..

this way your ground is isolated from "earth ground"

« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 07:07:41 PM by (unknown) »
Carpe Ventum (Seize the Wind)

Volvo farmer

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Re: New toy. Newbie. Oscilloscope
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2006, 07:23:06 PM »
Hooray! I saw a sine wave today. I happened to bump in to an old buddy of mine who knows a lot more about electronics than I do. He agreed to come over and try and figure out the scope. The funny thing is he just started twisting and twirling knobs and pushing buttons in a random sort of way for about ten minutes. He eventually just put the probe right on the hot leg of a plug at my shop on the grid. He was about to give up when he finally pushed the right button and we saw a bent line. A little more tweaking and there was the sine wave. No smoke appeared so it appears to be OK without an isolation transformer.


Funny thing, the wave appeared on the wrong axis, it was spread out verically instead of horizontally. About an hour later, it occured to me to switch the positions of the time base amp and the dual trace amp in the chassis. That did the trick.


Thank you everyone for the helpful suggestions! I know about the one arm behind the back trick, I work on live circuits all day long on appliances and rarely even unplug them unless I have to get pretty deep in there. I think I'm really going to enjoy learning how to use this new tool!

« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 07:23:06 PM by (unknown) »
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badmoonryzn

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Re: New toy. Newbie. Oscilloscope
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2006, 08:32:14 PM »
Wow, really impressive stuff, however I'm still trying to figure out what he will do with it though. Maybe printing that on a cue card in Chinese would be helpful too. If he is lucky he might see a wiggly line, or by setting it up as a duel trace, oh yea, "beam" he might see a trap, but just what is he going to learn from it? MERCY SAKES! You just don't stick your probe in to things without some knowledge of the consequences. LOL, at least I don't, it might kill ya! LMAO It's a good thing its not RF. I remember when everyone who had a CB wanted a 2K linier power amp and they were buying scopes and poking around in those tube amps that had 2K through 6K plate voltages. They would get the crap knocked out of themselves blow up the scope and Children's Band Radio and end up with little holes all over their hands from the high voltage RF. Two hundred ma at 2kv can be pesky. There's nothing like laying your arm on the top of a 500Z while it's cookin! I'll bet laying your arm across the collector of a singing high speed switcher would do about the same. It will let you know it is there. Oh well, I hope he learns before he burns. I can tell him how to get pretty little lines on the thing, but I can't think of any useful test to perform without knowing what he is going to work on and why.


moon

« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 08:32:14 PM by (unknown) »

Volvo farmer

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Re: New toy. Newbie. Oscilloscope
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2006, 09:26:39 PM »
Hey man, That post was one of the more helpful ones to me in this whole thread.


I thought I was clear, but maybe not. I want to look at the 120V sinewave in my off-grid power system. When I am charging batteries with my Outback inverter/charger off a generator, I think the waveform gets distorted and is cooking my electronics (and even my CFLs). Another guy with the same problem sent me pictures of his waveform and it had little bumps in it, about halfway up the peaks, from something he called "zero crossings". All I want to do at this point is confirm or deny that the waveform is funny looking, and maybe take pictures of it.  

« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 09:26:39 PM by (unknown) »
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badmoonryzn

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Re: New toy. Newbie. Oscilloscope
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2006, 01:44:05 AM »
Good I'm glad you got something to compare it to. There was lots to his post that was right on but there are so few thing anyone can do with a scope without the technical data needed to use it and get anything useful from what you are looking at. I'm not belittling your skills because I couldn't perform the tests needed to know what is right other than basic tests on components. I get tired of numbers told to people who are just learning, as they mean so little. Maybe it's just me but I do not see the point in feeding someone information that does not help solve their problem without some background in electronics.


This site is popular because they take the time to explain the idea or concept in plain english without all of the formulas, equations and design theories that have no meaning to most of the world. I find it very refreshing the incredible minds here that take the time to break down their knowledge so everyone can benefit from it. While every once in a while I shake my head when I see some of the explanations ultimately I know they are trying to help, but it still irks me. Sorry if I ruffled your feathers or anyone else's, but sometimes I make mistakes in judgement. Ultimately I wanted to see you helped with informtion you can use. Again not knowing where you are taking your readings from and why you are looking there it is pointless for me to offer any help, as everything would just be speculation.


I will offer this advise though, contact the manufacture of the unit you are questioning and get a copy of their service schematics and then you will have all of the correct voltages, resistances, cap values, wave forms, test points and test procedures they use to repair the devise. There is no way with the complexity of today's electronics to work on the things without the service schematics. There are to many IC's in the mix that have certain test points, test voltages, frequencies, resistance, timings, and on and on. The only way to see what you are looking for is to have these papers. I myself will not even work on my stuff unless I have these schematics unless it is something I fee is simple.


You are trying to tackle something that may be a design flaw or it may be normal, and if it is in other pieces of equipment of the same model it will be a tough find without the design data to put you in the ballpark. If you are looking for voltage spikes or bumps as you call them it would be nice to know what the deviation from specification is. There is nothing that functions perfectly in the consumer end of electronics and you will always see some kind of fluctuation in just about everything, and again without the design specification there is no way to know if it is normal or not. There is always going to be a deviation, the key is to know how much the manufacture is allowing within accepted amounts. Often the schematics will give you pictures of specific places to hook up your scope and test equipment and they will give you pictures of what the waveforms should look like and the correct voltages at the test points.


One last word of caution, be careful sticking the test probe on wires that are live because not knowing how sensitive the circuit is you may reduce the resistance or capacitance of the circuit and cause components to fail by accident. The old smoker! Remember the wires in an IC are 100s of times smaller than a human hair and will fail under just a few volts or ma. It is very easy to do if you don't know the probes resistance or capacitance, or the scopes input sensitivity settings. That way you will save time and have the proper settings. No guess work, life will be good and Santa will bring lots of toys and a new set of 20 foot blades in black walnut and world peace. I guess I'm just beating the proverbial dead horse, so I will end with good luck and Happy Holidays to you! I hope some of this helps your problem.


Badmoonryzn

« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 01:44:05 AM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: New toy. Newbie. Oscilloscope
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2006, 07:05:04 AM »
It's always difficult to know when something blows up what the cause is.


If the waveform is a perfect sine wave anything should work on it as long as the rms voltage is ok. Any nominal sine wave inverter should have a waveform good enough to run virtually anything, but if you look closely at the waveform you may see ripples or wriggles due to harmonics.


True square wave inverters are rather limited in what they will drive, if the peak volts is the same as a sine then rms will be high and it will blow lamps. If the rms is set to the sine value lamps will be fine but most electronic things that use dc will have low volts and may not work. Motors and transformers will growl and run hot and may not even work in some cases.


The so called modified sine inverter is more reasonably a modified square wave with dead bands so that with a peak equal to a sine, the rms value is also correct. They will normally run lamps and electronic devices that produce dc at the peak voltage.


The deadly things to run are clever electronic devices that use clever high power factor rectifiers. These sometimes get in a mess if the waveform has any steep rise bits. Some fluorescent ballasts, battery chargers and other odd things will end in smoke if not used with a reasonably sinusoidal supply.


If you look at engine driven alternator waveforms these are often far from perfect sine waves, but they rarely have fast edges and cause less trouble with touchy devices but even then some things fail to work.


I am often surprised what will work on a so called modified sine inverter, but I prefer someone else to try the experiment.

Flux

« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 07:05:04 AM by (unknown) »

robl

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Re: New toy. Newbie. Oscilloscope
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2006, 01:57:53 PM »
VolvoFarmer


You lucked out on the AC. You had 50/50 chance of getting the right wire. It is really important you get yourself a little 200w iso transformer for the AC cord of the scope...soon.


Regards


Rob

« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 01:57:53 PM by (unknown) »

RC in FL

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Re: New toy. Newbie. Oscilloscope
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2006, 07:02:21 PM »
You don't need an isolation transformer if you keep the ground of the probe on the neutal side, ground prong of the AC plug.


A word of caution,  don't trust all house wiring, there are a lot of sloppy electricans out there.  Check the wider plug prong to ground to see if it is near zero volts.  Conversly, the narrower slot should show 120vac to ground prong.


Neutral should be white wire, black is hot line, green or bare copper is ground.


Neutral (White) wires is ground bonded at main breaker box, thereby neutral and ground should be at near same potential.


If you put a heavy load at the plug outlet the neutral will be pulled slightly above ground caused by the neutral (white) wire resistance to the main breaker box.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 07:02:21 PM by (unknown) »