Author Topic: Tower vibration  (Read 3561 times)

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nekit

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Tower vibration
« on: July 01, 2011, 10:42:25 PM »
Got my 17' Axial Flux turbine up and running.  I'm wondering if others have experienced an issue I'm having.  My 17' is grid tied with an Aurora PVI-6000 MPPT inverter.  When the gen is running the tower has a vibration that seems to be directly correlated to when the MPPT inverter is putting a load on the gen.  When the RPM's go up and the inverter puts more of a load on the gen the tower starts to vibrate.  After it gets the load under control the vibration goes away.

If I let the mill spin up with the inverter disconnected and no load, no vibration.

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks,
Nekit

ghurd

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Re: Tower vibration
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2011, 12:25:14 AM »
Define "vibration".

If it is a growling sound, maybe something that can be felt, that is normal.
It is from the power pulses (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction), so it won't happen with no load.

If it the tower visibly wiggling like a guitar string, that is not good.
It can happen if the guys are fastened in spots that allow resonating, IIRC.
I have never seen it, but would like to see it... though on something much smaller than a 17'.

Not sure why it would go away in either case.
Interesting.
G-
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TomT

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Re: Tower vibration
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2011, 04:29:02 AM »
 I was having the same problem with a 6.5 ft turbine grid tied. I put some electrolytic capacitors across the DC line before the grid tie and it reduced the growl by more than 50 percent. Thanks goes to NEOH on our board for that one.

nekit

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Re: Tower vibration
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2011, 08:20:43 AM »
It's just a growling.  I may have to try some of the capacitors.  Thanks

TomW

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Re: Tower vibration
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2011, 08:40:35 AM »
It's just a growling.  I may have to try some of the capacitors.  Thanks
All of mine growl or did. Just a sign it is working and basically benign.

But its your show!

Tom

nekit

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Re: Tower vibration
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2011, 10:02:27 AM »
Here's a video with some sound of the growling.  It's not an issue, this is just my first turbine and I'm trying to figure out what normal is.  Thanks for the insights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHJbZeSBTlQ

TomT

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Re: Tower vibration
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2011, 10:24:02 AM »
Sounds about right for a turbine. Mine was setting up a harmonic shake in mine really bad. It also is an iron core. So a bit of a different thing.

fabricator

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Re: Tower vibration
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2011, 02:28:02 PM »
Mine growls but not audibly, you can feel it in the tower.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

Jason Wilkinson

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Re: Tower vibration
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2011, 03:26:02 PM »
Mine does that too, when i hear that sound is when the  amps are between 18 and 20 amps, above that you don't hear it , but it can be felt by touching the tower as long as current isgoing to the batteries
  Jason

ChrisOlson

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Re: Tower vibration
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2011, 03:51:12 PM »
This is what mine sounds like when it's working at 1600 - 2400 watts.  It's higher frequency than yours because my generator runs at 600-700 rpm.  It sounds kind of like a buzz saw cutting a 4 foot pine log at about 2 kW.  My turbines run FFO (Flat Freaking Out) about 90% of the time up here on the flats where we live, and you kind of get used to it after awhile:

http://www.youtube.com/user/OlsonFarms#p/u/4/auO_DNDxRbA

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boB

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Re: Tower vibration
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2011, 05:58:53 PM »

I'm pretty sure that the growl happens when the RPMs and electrical load frequency go through the point of tower resonance.
I've heard stories (maybe here ?) where the turbine could momentarily Un-Load through a certain RPM and slip by that
resonant point if it gets too bad.   Kind of a neat trick I think that I might have to look into some day.

It can get pretty loud some times.

I've heard this growl several times before, and mainly (I think) on iron core radial flux turbines.

boB

Flux

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Re: Tower vibration
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2011, 10:19:45 AM »
This is likely normal. If it is running single phased it will vibrate very badly. 3 phase machines running normally still have a small torque pulsation but it is normally not enough to cause much more than nuisance noise. All machines do it to some extent, axials, radials and even the old dc dynamos.

Normally it only becomes an issue when the frequency of the vibration excites a resonance somewhere. Most machines produce a noise at one speed and power level and you can often judge the output from this noise.

A grid tie inverter will load the alternator in a different way so the speed at which a noise occurs may be different from the same alternator charging a battery.

If you can live with the noise forget it, if not you will have a fairly difficult task shifting resonant frequencies away from the point where it is a nuisance.For battery charging a choke after the rectifier will remove a great deal of the vibration but it will be big and expensive, capacitors normally don't do much but with a grid tie inverter things may be different. I would be reluctant to try the choke with a grid tie inverter without contacting the inverter manufacturers as it will change the characteristics but the dc links on the big commercial machines use chokes.

The pulsating torque is often at 3 times the machine electrical frequency but it can still excite vibrations at harmonics of this and sometimes even at a subharmonic of some tower or yaw component.

Flux

bzrqmy

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Re: Tower vibration
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2011, 11:01:13 AM »
You should be able to feel it in your feet when standing next to the tower. I can lie in bed some nights and hear the vibration.  It took awhile to get used to, but is comforting to know the turbine is doing it's job.  This is why rooftop turbines is a bad idea.

12AX7

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Re: Tower vibration
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2011, 12:15:04 PM »
"I'll toss this out on the back steps and see if the cat licks it up"

Long time ago (40 years or so) I worked at an furniture factory.   This factory was four stories and had a pair of silos that stood better than 100 feet tall.  On the roof was a set of collection fan/blowers that were better than 10 foot in diameter and were driven by 100 hp motors.   These would "suck up" the dust from the cutting departments (on the first and second floors) and blow the blow the dust/wood chips up into the top of the silos.

While running the fans caused a annoying "rumble" in the building that was mostly covered up by all the other machinery that was running in the plant. 
During summer plant shut down I worked in maintenance as "general labor".   While helping with the PM on the roof top blowers the maintenance VP (been with the company less than a year) stopped by to check on our progress.  He noted a large T shaped bar with a weight mounted on it setting in a corner.   He asked one of the maintenance people what and where it belonged.
No one knew what it was and one said that it's been sitting there for years.

The Superintendent walked over to the blower motor (the thing was HUGE)  and pointed at a couple of tapped holes on it's frame and said..  "it bolts on here"   It took three of us to hold the thing in position so someone could install the bolts.

We started the blower and he moved the weight a couple of inches along the bar and ..  that annoying vibration was gone.
I'm sure (but not positive)  that he called it a "flying Dutchman".

That was my first encounter with a "vibration dampener".

Many years later I worked with vibrators that are used to move product along pans.  They were tuned by various methods but the principles were always the same.  These pans had the vibrators attached to them, and at times their mountings required "vibration dampening".  Often a "counter weight" was used.

I'd guess that something similar, bolted to a tower could dampen a vibration.   Granted,  it wouldn't be easy to determine it's needed length/weight or mounting location but the concept/principle should hold true.

ax7


nekit

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Re: Tower vibration
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2011, 08:36:00 AM »
I was having the same problem with a 6.5 ft turbine grid tied. I put some electrolytic capacitors across the DC line before the grid tie and it reduced the growl by more than 50 percent. Thanks goes to NEOH on our board for that one.

Added some 680uf capacitors on the DC line.  Can't really tell ant difference in the growl, but I can't see where they hurt anything.  I would think they would help smooth things out some.

I have found, as you would expect,  that changing my MPPT power curve can adjust when the growl occurs.

It's not that bad, just having fun playing with it.

Phil Timmons

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Re: Tower vibration
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2011, 06:48:39 PM »
"I'll toss this out on the back steps and see if the cat licks it up"

Long time ago (40 years or so) I worked at an furniture factory.   This factory was four stories and had a pair of silos that stood better than 100 feet tall.  On the roof was a set of collection fan/blowers that were better than 10 foot in diameter and were driven by 100 hp motors.   These would "suck up" the dust from the cutting departments (on the first and second floors) and blow the blow the dust/wood chips up into the top of the silos.

While running the fans caused a annoying "rumble" in the building that was mostly covered up by all the other machinery that was running in the plant. 
During summer plant shut down I worked in maintenance as "general labor".   While helping with the PM on the roof top blowers the maintenance VP (been with the company less than a year) stopped by to check on our progress.  He noted a large T shaped bar with a weight mounted on it setting in a corner.   He asked one of the maintenance people what and where it belonged.
No one knew what it was and one said that it's been sitting there for years.

The Superintendent walked over to the blower motor (the thing was HUGE)  and pointed at a couple of tapped holes on it's frame and said..  "it bolts on here"   It took three of us to hold the thing in position so someone could install the bolts.

We started the blower and he moved the weight a couple of inches along the bar and ..  that annoying vibration was gone.
I'm sure (but not positive)  that he called it a "flying Dutchman".

That was my first encounter with a "vibration dampener".

Many years later I worked with vibrators that are used to move product along pans.  They were tuned by various methods but the principles were always the same.  These pans had the vibrators attached to them, and at times their mountings required "vibration dampening".  Often a "counter weight" was used.

I'd guess that something similar, bolted to a tower could dampen a vibration.   Granted,  it wouldn't be easy to determine it's needed length/weight or mounting location but the concept/principle should hold true.

ax7



(very) interesting story.

You are correct, mechanical mass used to dampen vibration are analogues to capacitors on electrical circuits. 

Math even works out the same. 

Frequency tuned shock absorbing (hydraulic analogue) equipment could work out as well.

Last few Big Rotating Equipment projects I have worked on, the structural engineers have just gotten lazy on the design on put in Massive Concrete to cancel out the vibrations.  Usually about 3 feet thick, by about 50 to 60 feet across.  Nothing much moves when it is tied to that.

Canceled out some rotor vibration on aircraft by variable speed motors with spinning off-centered weights attached to the airframe. 

But back to windymill applications -- looking at doing some "suburban" applications where this stuff (noise, vibration) will matter.  Planning using 10 kW  or so at 60 height overall (local restrictions), so I am willing to do any experiments on them to keep them quiet and smooth, if anyone would like to suggest some.

   

nekit

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Re: Tower vibration
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2011, 11:55:05 PM »
Removed the aluminium cover that I made to go over the slip rings.  90% of the noise is gone.  Now I'll just need to make a cover that won't vibrate.

klsmurf

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Re: Tower vibration
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2011, 06:23:28 AM »
Rubber washers
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