Author Topic: Helping daughter build alternator  (Read 4534 times)

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jn_austin

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Helping daughter build alternator
« on: November 22, 2012, 08:06:15 PM »
My 11 year old is interested in building a wind machine for a science fair. She picked out an alternator design she found on the net that is built from neo magnets (12) and 9 coils of wire. The problem is sh wants to place the magnets on the outside of a bike wheel and use the spokes section as the blade with duct tape between pairs of spokes. Obviously this is not going to be very powerful nor very powerful but intended to generate some amount of power.

I looked over her design and gave her the go ahead but now I am wondering if i did the right thing. She is planning to make the coils about 2" round with a 11/4" hole in the middle. The magnets are 1" X 1/4" round. I am not sure the thing will work with the only 9 coils spaced so far apart. Obviously she could try to add more magnets and more coils but I am hoping to keep the cost down as this is about learning and not spending money on the perfect solution.

Will an alternator that is essentially 24" in diameter with the coils outside of that diameter ~25" and only 12 magnets and 9 coils actually work? She thinks it will work just fine but Dad is not convinced! Can you help sort this out? Thanks in advance.

JW

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Re: Helping daughter build alternator
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2012, 08:24:41 PM »
Older designs that were built here, (wood axe) brake rotor and drum machines, etc, are simular.

The design it sounds like your describing, is like a "Radial" machine, and yes the 9 mag to 12 coils is problematic with such a radial configuration.

Most of the example machine's here are "Axial"


JW

ghurd

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Re: Helping daughter build alternator
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2012, 11:06:26 PM »
"Will an alternator that is essentially 24" in diameter with the coils outside of that diameter ~25" and only 12 magnets and 9 coils actually work? She thinks it will work just fine but Dad is not convinced! Can you help sort this out?"

It will make a pulse of power when a magnet passes a coil.
Problem is that will not happen very often, percentage wise.

I would be tempted to move the coils and magnets nearer the axle.

Uh, red LEDs light up without much power, which may be worth considering to 'prove it works'.
Might shoot me an email and maybe I an help out with some parts related to that area.
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SparWeb

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Re: Helping daughter build alternator
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2012, 11:12:37 PM »
Consider putting the coils + magnets close to the hub rather than on the rim.  Spreading them out won't help the electrical side, just make wires longer, and it will hurt the aerodynamic side, which is probably going to need a little help.
9 coils, each 2" around, sounds like an 18 inch circumference, meaning 6 to 7 inch diameter, enough to stay near the axle of the wheel, while still leaving space around for the air flow.

We learn from failures, too.  I doubt it will be a total failure.

Don't try to charge a 12V battery.
Get some LED's and 1/2 watt resistors instead.

-- darn, Ghurd posted before me, and said pretty much the same thing --
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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jlt

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Re: Helping daughter build alternator
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2012, 08:24:25 AM »
You  could try to find a rear wheel from a bike with  a sprocket already attached.
 
 Some old single speed bikes have a steel sprocket.

tecker

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Re: Helping daughter build alternator
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2012, 12:16:56 PM »
24 " is big 7 " Plwood blades wiil be good . A 1 1/4 plumbing flange can be made to run true with a little machining or use a ceiling fan motor bolt the blades to the motor with allthread .

fabricator

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jn_austin

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Re: Helping daughter build alternator
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2012, 01:38:48 AM »
Thanks all. The Honewell design appears to be similar to what she wants to build. She is winding coils tomorrow so we will know how it performs in short order. If not this weekend then for sure the next one.

ghurd

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Re: Helping daughter build alternator
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2012, 09:17:08 AM »
"It will be a science fair project and not really looking to make real power"

A couple hints:

1st and most important, make SURE the coils are the right side up.
An upside down coil will cancel out a coil that is the right side up, so it is very important.

3 phase will have rectifier losses, meaning the first 1.4V is lost in the rectifiers.

If it does not get some kind of result with 3 phase, use the coils and make it single phase, because the 'power spikes will be higher.
Then can drive back to back Red LEDs directly from the raw AC, with no rectifier losses.


"Just measure what does get generated and show the performance"

Problem here is the spikes will be short lived and far appart.
Typical meter you would have, or be willing to buy, is not likely to show any kind of stable reading.

Could put a cheap capacitor on the rectified DC output to get some kind of stable peak voltage reading.

Capacitors can be dangerous.
Like ballons full of electricity.
Take precautions, like maybe a 1M drawdown resistor on the capacitor,
and make sure it can not be shorted out, which is like the ballon breaking!

Sketchs.

One shows the output in single phase.
The only time it makes a spike is when the magnets are passing coils.

One shows both ways to connect the Red LEDs.
180 ohm 1/4W resistors would be fine.

Like I said, shoot me an email.
G-



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jn_austin

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Re: Helping daughter build alternator
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2013, 10:38:21 AM »
Here is how it turned out! Yes it works but there could have been three times the number of coils and an increase in magnets. THat would have broken the budget so I discouraged that. Mainly was an exercise to allow her to learn how this all works and learn how to build something with your two hands.

Learned to weld


Heating the PVC pipe - Heated sand poured inside a closed end pipe.




Painting



Assembling coils





Applying tape to wheel for blades



More coils




Rectifier


Done and ready to test
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 10:53:26 AM by jn_austin »

madlabs

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Re: Helping daughter build alternator
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2013, 11:42:45 AM »
Brilliant! As an ex science teacher, I approve!

Jonathan

Bruce S

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Re: Helping daughter build alternator
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2013, 07:11:37 PM »
I like the idea of how to adjust the coils  :).
VERY well done!
What grade did she get?
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jn_austin

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Re: Helping daughter build alternator
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2013, 12:48:38 AM »
SO far she is through her school judging and moving on to the regional competition. That will be the central Texas area. It's easy for her to talk about it since I made her do all the step and learn what she was doing. It's great to build something but build something and learning why and how it works is really the most important aspect.

So up next will be the regional. If she does well at the regional than the project may go on to the state science fair. I have high hope but it's really up to her. At that level it's all about how well you can communicate your work and show a passion for what your doing!

mttrout

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Re: Helping daughter build alternator
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2013, 05:36:09 PM »

jn_austin,
A neat project well done... I saw some clever Ideas present in this DIY
Project.
Thanks for sharing,
Chuck

tecker

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Re: Helping daughter build alternator
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2013, 09:16:36 AM »
Couple of easy improvements . Glue a fender washer or two on the back of the coils . Cut them in half and so you don't have to dismantle  . Place Two magnet for each Phase one tdc (center of the coil) and one with leading edge of each coil in Phase . This will cog a bit but can increase power out .Place the frame Hmount on another bike wheel and add a tail  .Now that the Fair has past . May be a good small device  Charger . Put it to work and make a You tube good to see the ladies working wind power.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 09:25:00 AM by tecker »

jn_austin

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Re: Helping daughter build alternator
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2013, 01:11:06 AM »
Update. She had the regional fair today and won her category so she is going to state! Thanks again for the great forum.

SparWeb

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Re: Helping daughter build alternator
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2013, 02:49:32 PM »
Woohoo!  :)
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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clockmanFRA

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Re: Helping daughter build alternator
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2013, 05:52:06 AM »
Do send our Congratulations.

 From my Boy's here in France.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

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Harold in CR

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Re: Helping daughter build alternator
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2013, 04:25:49 PM »

 Excellent update. Hope she wins the whole shootin match.  8) 8)