90 North lets get off grid!

[13dragons]

Hi all my name is Diana,

I live in prairie country Canada, I have been reading up and doing tons of study on wind power as with another 5% increase I just can't take it anymore.....

Right now I'm fully on grid I have a budgeted hydro bill of 400$ per month..... yes its high its the winter months that kill me and we have only 2 really warm months in a year.

I have done my homework and I'm ready to get my hands dirty now.

any suggestions from anyone would be extremely helpful.

Ok this is what I need to produce at a minimum....

wait its large hold on 1000kW per month during our 2 months of summer. 3000+kW per month in the winter.... yikes I know what am I doing wrong..... all CFL's new windows and doors but we are wide open in the freezing north winds all winter. We have also planted pines on the North side of the house however they have been growing for 5 years now and hey they are no higher than my knee.....what do I expect we have no growing season lol.

However over the last year the wind has blown at an average of 14.2  per hour.....never really goes below 10 except in the dead of night, and quite often it will blow a steady 30 kph.  so what do I have an opportunity to harvest this killer of my pocket book the wind.

long term I will be building a 20 footer with a 60 foot tower, however this is going to take more time than I'm willing to wait. Therefore I'm going to start with 3 smaller ones like the ones from Off the grid, these can be later used for my husbands garage, he sucks up alot of power with his welding ,compressor,heater etc....

As I'm just getting started I figured I would start my Diary in the research part making sure I have all my little brain thoughts in one place.

1. all lights changed-done
   
2. energy efficient-hot water tank -done
   
   

                   -furnace

                   -fridge-done

                   -stove

3. replace all windows-all done except Jacobs and our room
   
4. replace doors-done
   
5. re caulk all windows and doors-done
   
6. get everyone in the mind set-yeah finally done
   
7. start purchasing required storage batteries. need 8 6V from costco approx 68 each
   
8. Luck out on a great priced tower otherwise pay the 500+ just for the tower grrrr.
   
9. Find a good book that I can understand
   
   

 more to come.

Why am I doing this? 2 years ago I got injured at work its been a long hard recovery and I'll never be able to return to my previous job as my insurance is now done and the only job I've been able to get is 40% of what I used to make I need to drastically change our life style,being at home and recovering has opened my eyes to all the waste that goes on around here we have started making changes and I really want to continue them as I get back into the working world. hey we even have a garden that provides all our veggies yum there much better than store bought. but yikes they have to be frozen so we have them for the winter ummm more hydro.

Well back to my studying I'm going to make my notes later as they are starting to get spread out and I'm sure to lose some important piece of info I've collected.

[wooferhound]

It sounds like you want to make your own power, so save money from paying Grid Prices

If you can do that, then tell us how because none of us has been able to do it . . .

[electrondady1]

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/5/22/232118/698

[13dragons]

Well to start I'm working on 3 smaller wind generators, I won't be going off grid for quite some time. However, its a start. and if it does off set even a little of hydro every year till we can finish some bigger ones its worth our while. My daughter is a big green she wants to be as kind to the environment as she can, My son walks the ditches to pick up all the garbage and sorts it when we get home. He is actually able to pay me for gas when we do the bi-yearly clean up as there are tons of beer cans that he gets .15 each for them, he sorts the garbage and recycles 90% of it.

We were composting before it was cool, we take 1 bag of garbage a week to the dump actually thats not true any more now we wait till we have a full load in the truck before we go to the dump its a 20 min drive there and gas prices are very high. Therefore no trips in the gas guzzler unless its necessary, with myself getting hurt we had to really tighten our belt straps.

The garden started because now I had all this time I wasn't working 12 hours a day, My father In law did all the hard work as I could not use my arms we are slowly enlarging it so eventually most of our vegetables will be home grown enough for both of our families. We do have 2 apple trees but I don't know how to store apples except to make it apple sauce... I'm not much of a cook.

We are now used to living on 1 income and as now I'm capable of working part time I could work full time but as I can not do anything physical for extended periods so I had to take a job that was only part time otherwise I'll be back to square one with my injury. (Both my rotator cuffs were torn.) I'm working on making us as energy efficient as possible, still need a new furnace and a stove but with time.....These generators will be my heavy work for the day for a while once I have most of the parts I will begin putting them together Funny but my son has found some of the parts just laying in the ditches....

must run for now.

[bparks]

Not sure how well it would work for you there, but since heat is such a huge demand for you google the solar closet idea by nick pine.  It's a good cheap DIY method to provide some or all of your heat.

[kurt]

you should be putting all your energy into conservation it is not as cool as 3 windmills and a battery bank but it will actually pay you back money unlike windmills and a battery bank (nobody has ever been able to beat the power company price by making and storing there own power in batteries. and you won't either the amount of electricity you use is just crazy 3000 KWH a month we don't use that much in a year. i assume you are running electric heat to be using that much power?? perhaps you could find a more economical heat source that would work for you. a good wood stove works well for some people if you can get wood. perhaps a pellet stove would be more economical than electric heat you would have to check into that.  

[wiredwrong]

Being that winter is when you use the most power and wind power is expensive I'd start with a solar heater, very easy and very cheap. I have started on mine this summer and so far I have not got a single dime in it. next winter it will be all savings, even if its just a little.

[Norm]

they have to be frozen so we have them for the winter

What do you mean they have to be frozen?

You can learn how some fruits and vegetables can

be kept in a special place cool and dry...year

around others can be canned no cooking involved..

called cold packing ....all the years I lived at

home we never had a freezer....until later on we

never even had a refrigerator and then the freezer

part was only for two ice cube trays...

the biggest advantage of not needing a freezer is

ah...not needing electricity for it...

[zeusmorg]

 The first thing is CONSERVE ENERGY, yes you've done some, but I'm betting you could do a lot more. Insulation? Air leaks? (around outside wall outlets, for instance) buy a kill a watt meter and check specific appliance use, you'd be amazed what eats up electricity especially turned "off". It does sound like the kids want to help, ask them for suggestions of what they could do to conserve.

 Build interior "storm" window to reduce air leaks and add another layer of insulation.

put good curtains up to close at night,with top mounted air baffle, (basically a box around the top of a curtain),there's tons of ways to cut energy use.

 As far as heat, consider switching to either propane, or firewood as that will be a LOT cheaper for heating than producing electricity for heat.Solar air panels help out on a good southern exposure.

 Solar water heating is much cheaper long run than any other method of heating it, and has a decently quick "payoff"

 Look at reclaiming waste heat from water on your shower, easy and cheap in some applications.

 There are a lot of ways to conserve energy, rather than trying to make it. Payoff on PV solar electric or a windmill will be a long time, basically you're pre-paying your electric bill with them.

 A good site for energy saving ideas is : http://builditsolar.com/ there are a lot of useful ideas there, especially look at the "half plan".

 Large loads do require huge inverters, too. Welding and shop equipment have heavy loads.

 You may consider a grid tied system, as that either requires a small battery bank, or none depending on whether you need backup for outages. That way you could keep the system smaller, and when you do require  heavier usage, it's there.

[electrondady1]

diana,

 are you living in a modern house or an old farm house?

do you get a lot of icicles?

go up into the attic and check out how much insulation you have up there.

there should be a couple of feet.

how thick are the walls ?

it's a major job to upgrade walls but you may need to add insulation there too.

ether on the outside or inside.

there may be government money available for that.

there are companies that can take an infrared photo of your house and tell you were your loosing heat.

does anyone in your area bale straw ?

if so, perhaps this fall you could stack bales against the outside walls.

remember the pioneers built sod houses with walls a few feet thick.

if you can , at some point, build an earth berm to force the wind over and around your house .

that will give your pine trees some time to thicken up.

is there a closed in porch or mudroom on the main entrance?

if not, build one so that you have a bit of an air lock and all the warm air doesn't

escape when you open the door.

there are something like 10,000 members on this forum now but only a few are using windmills to generate household heat.

but the subject is coming up more often now and that's were my interest is.

my baseboard heaters start clicking on in September and don't stop until June.

use the Google search feature on the upper right margin to search for resistance heating .

if you are on open prairie you may not need a very tall tower to get good wind.

if all you want is heat there is no point in buying a lot of batteries.

just run the output right into the heater

if you are going to run multiple windmills you should rectify to dc and then you can add the outputs together.

good luck to you.

[DamonHD]

3000kWh of electricity is considerably more than some of us (admittedly in more temperate places) use in a year.

The first thing is as said elsewhere to try not to rely on electric resistance heating.  It's bad for your bank balance and bad for the planet!

According to Hans Blix (of nuclear fame) 1kg of wood = 1kWh of electricity: imagine having to fell and prepare 100kg (220lb) of wood each day and then store it all for a couple of years to dry out.

Burn a fuel efficiently for heat if you can (eg wood!) or use a ground-source or air-source heat-pump designed for your climate (eg works down to -20C); that will give you 2 or 3 units of heat out for every one of electricity in.

But first revisit all the conservation methods mentioned above.

Rgds

Damon

[bob g]

get something else put up on the north side of the house to divert the north wind over your house.

maybe a properly placed fence or depending on view concerns a shipping container

anything you can put up that makes the wind lift up and over your house is going to help.

sounds like you are on the right track, just not sure you are going to save alot of cash each month,, but you will have peace of mind knowing that you have some control over your life and its costs.

also depending on what alternate fuels you have at your disposal, you might do some research into cogeneration. it might be something viable for you especially in the winter months.

bob g

[wpowokal]

It is Allan's humble opinion that although it is not competative with mains, (if available), in time those that have embraced alternative energy will be ultimate winners.

Winning may be in dollar terms or it may be in green (Karma) terms, you chose, or look at the price rises of fuel.

Either way there will never be a more cost effective time to embrace Re.

allan down under

[13dragons]

W o o f -={(, I don't think that we will ever be completely off grid as the house is to large and we would be better off starting from scratch  we a new build , however I love my home its not super old (over 100) but we are working on making it as efficient as possible.

Parent, I now have that list of books next time I drive into the city I will stop by the library and check them out. Thank you so much! like I did say I've not started anything on the wind mills I've got a dream but I need the facts and a solid plan I don't see any of these machines working on a large scale plan yet to start it may be just the lights in the garage then eventually the furnace running with it.

IRC, I have put in a wood burning fire place, however wood takes a long time to renew dead falls are good and they take us about 2 days to find and haul here, permits are required for everything that gets cut and collected. But not everyday is someone here all day long to keep the fire going. when its minus 40 (yes regularly minus 40 in January Feb things that are good in -20 just don't cut it here.)  pipes will break so we need to be grid tied so we can keep it from freezing. We have a programmable thermostat that keeps the house at 15.9 during the day and 17.5 when we are at home. This was an excellent purchase as it cut 50 dollars off our bill last year no sense keeping the house comfortably heated if no one is home especially if we are gone for a week I know some people will say that to heat it up cost more to just have it go those two degrees but Hydro says that its not more expensive and its one of there suggestions on being hydro smart. I am working on all the conservation that I can some things are more expensive than others but we are picking away at them most of the things for the smaller wind mills are free, or nickel dime things. where having a high efficiency furnace installed is thousands. pick away bit by bit I can only get what I have the money for, we just finished the doors and we still have two more windows to buy they are the priority at the moment.

I'll look into the solar panel idea you may be correct and we do have loads of roof they are east west orientated which by thought actually makes alot of sense! thank you.and we do gets tons of sun summer and winter, do you have to store the power from those? or just direct feed it?

Randy, solar heater? as in a solar furnace? I'll Google it! another thing on my list wow I should have posted a long time ago you all have such great advice!

Norm, your right I've never learned how to can, I don't know anyone that does know how to and truth be told hey I can freeze my veggies all winter long if I just keep them in a coldbox out side, your right I don't need a freezer for them!during the summer they are fresh, the only months to worry about would be May and June before they are grown and they would not be keeping well in the heat. but I remember hearing about cold cellars do I just dig down under the house? we have a crawl space below the house not a basement as the water line is to high for basements here. Another great suggestion well at least for this year I'll just build a box with scrap wood and put them outside come the warmer months when its not cold enough to keep them frozen Ill put them in the freezer. I can save the freezers cost of running for about 7 months as once its -10 they can go out side. Wow this site its the best for suggestions!

Yes I'm working on the conserving, we are working on the appliances as per there use  I had the kids unplug each item and watches the hydro for its drop in spin, we made a list and the ones we could afford we did right away the furnace is the big ticket item however we will apparently not be saving very much by upgrading it so its at the bottom of the list. My walls are all 9 inches thick they are all pink insulated we have 2 feet of insulation in the attic. have completely re caulked the windows and doors have been tested for leaks, we are still going to be upgrading 2 more windows but we still re caulked the old ones till we can buy the new ones.

The window box thing is something I've never heard of why and how does that work? Yes we will have to remain grid tied, we cant afford to have a pipe break!

electrondady1,

 Its semi modern I would guess its ranch style single story nope no icicles,we have a couple of feet of insulation in the attic, walls are 9 inches thick all are insulated with pink , we were losing heat through windows and doors.

we put bales of straw along the foundation and over the septic tank and well every September.

never thought of a berm, would need some help with that.....how do you calculate how far awy to put it how high does it need to be?

Yes we have a mud room,

yes I'm wide open prairie, with tons of wind I don't remember ever having a day when there was a dead calm... one thing I have tons of is wind. Everyone comments about it when they visit it could be plus 30 but its cool because of the wind. I didn't realize that I could run it directly to the heater...., All I ever read is you need this type or that type of batteries to store the energy and then you need to invert it etc. you catch my drift. If I could feed it directly I would be a happy camper.

Daman, Im willing to look into any conservation methods I hear about some are feasible some are not, some things can be done right away some take time but yes if you have any ideas that you have found that work for you I'd be really happy to hear about them. I'll be visiting build it solar when I get my chores done for the day,

 Thank you all for you ideas and suggestions wow I really should have posted a long time ago!

[DamonHD]

Hi, FWIW, here was what we did, though not much will be directly applicable to you!

http://www.earth.org.uk/saving-electricity.html

Rgds

Damon

[TomW]

Allan;

Well said, and exactly why we just upgrade by 520 watts of Kyoceras last month. Of course we had a fairly decent base system built already. Doesn't pay back a dividend check every month but it does offset our load on an already bloated system. Something great in the feeling of using your home brewed electrons, too.

Tom

[13dragons]

great site damon,

yes this year we have so far saved 400.00 in energy costs its a huge amount for us. its like one month of money back in our pockets. i've have been tracking our hydro bills for 3 years and its slowly going down each year.

Today for example its 17 degrees which is great as its not cold but even yesterday the high was 13 and its the middle of summer. I'm going to borrow one of those trackers maybe it will be more effective than me visually watching and counting the spin rate on our hydro meter. We don't have a stereo that has a constant drain but the T.v , and DVD player even when they are not on they still take electricity I heard that if it has a remote control even when they are not on they still draw power, as I can not afford to buy new tv etc, I'll see weather the kids and husband are willing to unplug after they watch or use them, we only watch 2 hours a day at the most as i prefer them to be outside or doing other things and whats the difference between plugging it in or pushing the power button..... any suggestions on how to sell this to them?

Perhaps that earth berm can also be used to be a storage for the food? does anyone know if it stays cold? this is what I'm getting the idea for if anyone has any clues or ideas please let me know I build a frame that is the width of the house perhaps only a couple of feet deep put siding on on and a door facing the house then from the north side push earth up against it till its got a nice hill like appearance from the north side..... I've got to work on this idea but then the berm would work two fold.

[Norm]

Tons of wind huh? sounds like a good place for a

bunch of cheap and easy to build half-barrels

Savonius 3 stage practically from ground level no need for a tower even....

[13dragons]

Norm ,

half barrel? cheap I like the sound of that I look it up.

[DamonHD]

Hi,

Given your very high consumption, then getting too hung-up on 'vampire' power consumption is probably not too worthwhile at this stage, but you might at least ensure that everything that can go off at the end of every day does go off at the wall.

That wouldn't be too bad to do yourself.  But you might point out that a year's worth of vampire power might be a nice deep hot bath once a year or several nice hot showers; which would they rather have on a cold cold day?  Maybe a negative Christmas present to anyone who doesn't do their bit!  B^>

Rgds

Damon

[FuddyDuddy]

I don't know if this will help, but Homepower magazine published an article titled "Solar Barn" in issue #109 (2005) where a fellow turned the south side of his barn/workshop into a solar air heater. Full details are given on construction. No structural work was required. Well written article. It uses no electricity, just natural air movement. He does give results. He is located in Montana, USA. Not unusual to hit -12 degrees C there.

The website for the mag is www.homepower.com. If you can't find the article, I have it in pdf format and can send it to you.

We put in a tankless propane fired water heater when the utility here raised the rates by 33%. It has no standing pilot but uses an electronic ignition. Runs on two "D" cell batteries for a year (I change them twice a year to be safe). Uses no gas unless the tap is turned on. We were a family of five adults and had all the hot water we wanted. When the rates went up, just after installation, our bill only increased by $5....

We also have a solar air heater system that gives us some heat during the cold months here, but our area (Oregon, USA) is pretty mild.

long.shanks@comcast.net

FuddyDuddy

[DanB]

I have to disagree with norm.  Half barrel machines have very little swept area and theyre not efficient.

For your situation (And the payback maybe quite a long time) - with your huge energy consumption, if wind is to be in your future and put any dent in things at all, consider buying a serious wind turbine-  maybe a Bergey xcell or something along those lines.  (or try to build one - but....  you need a big wind turbine to make a difference).  Even on the prairie - short towers wont make sense.  

[SparWeb]

Hi Diana,

Don't let the surprise expressed by the americans on this board get you down.  They've never lived through a week solid of -30C, followed by a refreshing break at -20C for the next month.  Electricity in Canada has been so cheap for so long that nobody thinks about it when building over-sized houses, and people moving into them don't know what they're in for, either.  I was in the same boat when I moved into my beautiful country home outside of Calgary, and then I saw the electric bills!  I believe the number you quote, though I dearly hope it's much lower in summertime.  My house is heated with natural gas and my winter expense is mostly due to heating water for the livestock over the winter, and lights all over this labyrinthine house.  Correct that, the extension of the house also has electric baseboard heaters (easy to forget about that in the summer).  Pretty chilly in there if you don't turn those on when the nights go below -10C.

My personal goal is more modest: to get the windmill to supply enough juice to take the livestock water heat off the grid and run some barn lights.  Didn't quite achieve that last winter, but there's bigger and better in the works.

My house has a shelter belt of poplars which are 30-40 feet tall, barely 12 years old.  Helps a lot with the heating and resisting storm damage, but I'm dammed if I have a clear area for a windmill withing 200 meters of the house!  Your pines will take another 2 decades, but you need to cut the wind down over the house sooner than that.

Good work so far, and good luck to you; this site is great for technical info, but every now and again there's inspiration, too.

[Norm]

Yeah on second thought I'd disagree with me too,

I live on the edge of town lot of limitations and

little wind....so I think more in terms of milliamps...

So in her situation I agree with you.

[13dragons]

Thank you Steven,

I'm thinking gee what am I doing wrong perhaps a little explanation, to those who think I have an excessive use? hey I have to have the furnace running in the summer.... I'm northern Manitoba wide open. Imagine those picture you see of a lone farm house with snow up to the windows nothing in sight from horizon to horizon well thats us all winter. I understand a lot of people did say they are in a warmer climate but at least I was honest and said exactly how much we do use I'm not claiming we are angles I'm up for any information hints clues Idea's to reduce I'm reading up on anything I can find, Implementing what I can. I'm working on switching over 1 thing at a time the worst is my heat if I can get that happening for a start I'll be a happy camper. to date in the last couple of years we have reduced our hydro bill by 450.00 per year, I did not bother calculating in the increases that they have been allowed so its actually more than 450 I'm just concerned about rough figures I would love my hydro to be budgeted at 200 per month that is my goal one day some how I will make that happen. this year they were allowed another 5% increase I don't get it they had a profit of over 1 Billion dollars. On the days that the furnace does not run in a 24 hour period we use 1,400 Watts thats like anyone that has 2 100 watt light bulbs going for 7 hours. I'm actually truly happy with that, that is with nothing going to heater for the water, no furnace that is just the fridge all those little power suckers that suck up even when they don't run, normal use of t.v and water pump for toilet, dishes etc..

The pines will take a long time but between each and 5 feet closer to the house we have now planted Manitoba maples and a few spruce that I found really cheap. I've been working out the consumption and during the day its just the furnace and those pesky remote items ,clocks etc that are drawing power. we also have a hot water tank but its mostly on maintain heat during the day not drawing to much its set at the best energy efficient heat of 120 degrees as suggested by Manitoba Hydro. We watch t.v. very little however I was not able to convince my husband of the worth of unplugging the box instead of the power button he says its too much of a pain to reprogram it every time it gets unplugged...., I don't understand it just takes 3 more presses on the button, Guide Program Favorites gees it keeps favs it doesn't lose them I need a more manly way to explain it perhaps I should calculate it into beer. lol

[kurt]

you need to learn the difference between a watt and a watt hour.... watts are what lightbulbs are rated at and kilowatt hours (1000 watt hours)KWH  is the unit your electric company uses to bill you for electric power. not nitpicking it would just make you sound much less uninformed if you used the proper units at the proper time........  

[DanG]

Domestic hot water tank heating... there is a place to save...

Placing a 'tempering tank' before the electrically heated tank and using sun or wind to raise the supply ANYWHERE above ground water temps is a good place to save.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_heating <--- read the "thermodynamics and economics" section.

Are there rebates or subsidies available for point-of-use instant hot water heaters?

[DanG]

Oh - I've seen Minnesota -30C, clear and cold - and weeks of -15C as daily highs. Heating that cold dry air shrinks every stick of wood, gap and opening until you dread walking past the doorway, or sitting too near a window (etc.) To keep out best insulted room the most comfortable last winter we used a Vornado air-circulator electric heater ($30 seasonal close-out the year before) on low to keep the layers or air stirred up while we occupied the room, otherwise the drafts of cold air start pooling like blobs of mercury while the heated air hugs the ceiling up away from people like helium balloons...

[StorminN]

Hi there,

I believe you on the temperatures... I lived in Maine for years and saw lots of -20F days and a few -40F days... and Maine is not Manitoba!

If you can sit down and figure out what part of your electricity is used for what, that will help... try and suss out your loads and what is used for what. It sounds like the majority of it is used for heat. If you want to use less electricity, try putting yourself in the mindset of the people that lived there 100 years ago... without any electricity... what would they have done? How would they have heated the house?

The other option is to say "the heck with it", take the easy way out, and move to a warmer climate... (that's what I did).

-N.

[13dragons]

yes I took my measurements off of the hydro meter in a 24 hour period I will use 1.4 Kwh if the furnace is not running if I times that by 1000 it gives me 1400 does it not?

1 Kilowatt = 1000 watts so if I use 1.4 kWh as measured on  the meter in 24hours that means I have used 1.4 *1000 = 1400 watts

on an average colder summer day we use approx 33.4 kWh in 24 hours which would have the family home for the full 24 hours I'm looking at my weekend measurements. now these measurements would include the welder,compressor, washing machine and the water pump.

now I have one of my November - December bills in front of me from 2007 there were 29 days now the house used 5,694.000 KWh which means in Watts  is 5,694,000W so divide that by 29 days its 194793.1034 Watts in 24 hours,granted its dark and the lights are on all the time if someone is home yes just in the room we are in, the heat even with the fire place does run nearly 24 7 just to keep the house at 15.9 during the day and 17.5 in the evening this was the first full month we had installed the variable thermostat so we could conserve on those times when we were not home by letting the temperature drop by 2 degrees.

Last months bill May to June 1,313.000 kWh times 1000 divided by 30 days equals an average of 43,766 watts per day or 43.8 Kwh per day yes may to June was still cold enough to have the furnace running occasionally as a few of the nights still went below 0 degrees and if we were lucky it went above 10 degrees during the day, but the north winds were kind winds.

Yes I'm working on gathering some more information about those berms where you build an earth block from the wind, I found some interesting articles in the Mother Earth news no 71about drying of fruits and meats and some interesting information on some homebuilt water pumps (no electricity) and in issue 41 I found an idea for making a stove top oven, in the winter the fireplace i can use the top for boiling water and anything in a pot but this insulated box idea might work for the cooking I would normally do in the stove, Manitoba hydro says its less energy to use the microwave but some things really taste better in an oven its worth a shot.

[Norm]

You almost got it except

1 Kilowatt = 1000 watts so if I use 1.4 kWh as measured on  the meter in 1hr that means I have used 1.4 *1000 = 1400 watts/hr

in 24 hrs at that rate you will have used

1400 * 24=33600 or 33.6 at 8 cents a Kilowatt hour.....$2.68 which would be $80.64 in a month.

If you were to run your toaster and it took 1400

watts......(mine only takes 1028watts)

24hrs a day.

I could be wrong....

[Norm]

I missed the part in a 24 hr period....you're

right....and if you only used that much in 24hrs.

every month....you'd be pretty lucky....60yrs.

ago my parents used less than that...monthly bill

....less than $1 ...imagine that huh!

[13dragons]

so I'm doing the math correct then norm?

looking at the math I can skip the change to watts but they are something I understand better than kWh plus the number is larger if I say we use 33 kWats to the kids they don't think thats a lot but if I say we use 33,000 Watts a day that gets them into action.