Author Topic: My first try at FEMM  (Read 6962 times)

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FishbonzWV

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My first try at FEMM
« on: March 31, 2009, 10:39:51 PM »
I finally got around to trying the Femm software on the 3/4 hp conversion, but I am not sure which types of steel to choose for the modeling.

Just taking a wild guess, I chose:

Carpenters silicon core iron for the outside laminates

US steel 2 s .018  for the rotor body

1010 steel for the shaft


This is the postprocessor output.




How far off am I on the choices?

Thanks

Bonz

« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 10:39:51 PM by (unknown) »
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jimovonz

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Re: My first try at FEMM
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2009, 12:44:41 AM »
Somethin a bit odd there... Your field lines don't return through the laminates. Check out the cogging torque example that comes with FEMM (incidentally using M-19 steel):




« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 12:44:41 AM by jimovonz »

FishbonzWV

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Re: My first try at FEMM
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2009, 03:24:40 AM »
Thanks,

Changed the inner and outer lams to M19 and reran the processor but it still has the same flux lines.

Still don't know what I'm doing wrong.

« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 03:24:40 AM by FishbonzWV »
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Flux

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Re: My first try at FEMM
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2009, 12:25:36 PM »
I am not familiar with your American steels but your choice should be near enough. You can forget the shaft.


Something is very wrong with the flux path in the stator. The lines look as though they are aiming for a big steel ring round the stator core with much lower permeability than the core itself ( just about impossible).


The flux lines should return from pole to pole in the stator just as they do in the rotor.


Sorry I don't know the programme but you are obviously feeding in wrong information and it will not be in the choice of iron.


Flux

« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 12:25:36 PM by Flux »

FishbonzWV

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Re: My first try at FEMM
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2009, 01:02:56 PM »
Got it.

I added an Al shell around the iron to create a boundary.

Looks like I needed to specify the outer boundary of the iron.

Putting the shell was an easy way out.





Now, on to model the 3 HP before build.


Thanks

« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 01:02:56 PM by FishbonzWV »
"Put your brain in gear before you put your mouth in motion"
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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: My first try at FEMM
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2009, 01:04:14 PM »
Yes:  It looks like your surrounding air/vacuum has an infinite permeability rather that mu-sub-zero.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 01:04:14 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: My first try at FEMM
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2009, 08:02:02 PM »
Sweet!


Can it model different rotor positions for potential energy and predict cogging?

« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 08:02:02 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

FishbonzWV

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Re: My first try at FEMM
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2009, 04:20:06 AM »
I haven't got that far, but I've seen Dinges has used the Lua Scripting to do some very good stuff.

I think it would have to be in 3D to model cogging because I use the helix offset to defeat the cogging.

Thanks
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 04:20:06 AM by FishbonzWV »
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SparWeb

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Re: My first try at FEMM
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2009, 01:16:50 PM »
Hi welcome to the world of FEMM.


I've been using it for a while - seems you've sorted out your initial trouble.

I consider it important to specify "AIR" in the gap between rotor and stator, AND around the outside of the stator.  I would also suggest a bigger boundary around it all, because some lines do stray out of the stator.


What are you using to draw?  CAD, or the built-in editor?  


Some tips because weird things can happen:  If you make a perfectly circular rotor and rectangular magnets touch, then FEMM gets hung up on the tiny wedge shaped areas between them.  If you draw the rotor as having flats for each magnet then this problem doesn't happen.



You can see teeth in my rotor because I turned down the original rotor and the aluminum bars are "empty" of flux.  If you make a new solid rotor then it looks the way you drew it.


Different stators look different in cross-section.  Mine has rectangular slots, with "T" shaped teeth, and I drew that as accurately as I could.  I wouldn't get hung up on exact geometry if you are only looking for "guidelines", but if you really pursue something like cogging or acurately predicting performance, then scale matters.


ULR,

Check out what Peter Dingemans has been doing the past few months - your question will be answered.  Find his posts on the Backshed.

« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 01:16:50 PM by SparWeb »
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FishbonzWV

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Re: My first try at FEMM
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2009, 03:48:29 PM »
Hello Steven,

First off, how's the solar heated trough working? I didn't see any follow ups posted, but I was wondering.

I was hoping you would chime in on this thread. I have seen your simulations and also Peters. (I do wish he still posted on this site, and I haven't joined the backshed yet, but I do check it out every day.)

I used the built in cad for simulations because I don't have any other, it's pretty easy to use once you get the hang of it. The copy command is the main tool. :-)

I have noticed the hang up you are talking about (I think), but I got around that by offsetting the rotor radius by one digit from the magnet radius. (I think it's highest resolution is 0.001) There were some conflicts that popped up during mesh that said I had different materials assigned to the same points and when I offset they cleared up.

It is a turned down stock rotor and I didn't think to put the Al in.

The stator is pretty much to spec's however.

After doing the simulations, it brought up the latest question.

How much saturation do you really need?

I modeled the 3 HP with 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2 inch thick mags and even the 1/4 inch mags show saturation at the 2T level.

I'm mainly using the modeling to get the thickness of the mags correct.

So if I get 2T is this enough?

Thanks

Terry
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 03:48:29 PM by FishbonzWV »
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SparWeb

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Re: My first try at FEMM
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2009, 01:39:52 PM »
Hi!


The water trough saved me a lot of money! :-)

I gave a follow-up in December, it's at the bottom of Gary's Build-it-solar website page if you go look for it.  Now that winter's over, some concluding remarks are in order.


I think you can see the saturation when you view the result in FEMMVIEW.  I like to play around with the upper and lower bounds so that the colors are more meaningful.  For example, by default you typically get a set of lower and upper limits based on the min and max flux in the results, so it can be something like 0.000237 to 2.7188573.  This plots out a nice spread of colours, but the legend on the side takes on 20 increments between those two numbers.  So before plotting the flux density, change the limits to "0.000" to "2.000" and then hit OK.  That range divided into 20 intervals will give you nice round numbers.  Now the colours start to mean something.


Also, the stuff over 2T will all be purple, so you can tell right away what's saturated.  Some iron is actually saturated at about 2.2 or 2.4T, so you could use that as your upper bound instead.  Then adjust the lower bound accordingly and the intervals on the legend will still be round numbers.


Is 2T necessary?  Well points here and there don't add up to much, really what you want is a "surface" with the flux maximized.  Have you tried the Integration functions yet?  There's a button in FEMMVIEW that lets you pick a series of points and draws a red line between them.  Make that line across one pole in your model.  Now hit the "integral" button, and the normal flux across that line is calculated for you!  Flux is the crucial number that can be compared from model to model.  Flux makes volts.


While you have the line drawn, you can also use it to make a graph of the flux across all of the teeth - a nice pretty picture.


Overall, the thicker magnets should give you more Total flux than a thinner magnet, by penetrating more saturation into the stator.  They "should", but maybe the model will tell you the difference is small.  Once current flows in wires, the reverse flux will cancel out the magnet flux.  Saturation gives you a margin before that reverse flux takes over.


One more thing:  I carefully modeled my Toshiba conversion in FEMM, tried different magnet combinations, selected the best for flux and $, and used a bit of info from a college textbook to figure out how much power to expect.  When the conversion was done, I followed it up with performance tests on a lathe.  Comparing the power prediction with the power actually obtained, I learned several things:

-college was a waste of time

-theory and experiment never agree

-I shoulda known better


I don't think FEMM is a waste of time: just be aware of its limitations.  The Toshi became really hot in the lathe tests, so the room-temperature model is wrong on that count alone.


Have fun!

« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 01:39:52 PM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca